I support the 180 tactic - standing up for yourself and feeling that anger! You are right - YOU DO NOT DESERVE THIS - YOU DESERVE SO MUCH BETTER. Can you write a letter to him expressing this - don't mail it, don't let him see it. But put all your strength down in a letter where you can let him have it. It doesn't have to be an ultimatum, but it can be all the reasons why you deserve better treatment and why you are worth it! I have done this and it gave me a lot of stregth.
Or do nothing. Sit with your anger and feel the power of deserving better. It can be hard when you want H back so much. It can be hard when you fear he would never change. But standing up to him is exactly the right thing to do. I'm convinced of it. Whether it is to his face, or an attitude you gain inside yourself, almost doesn't matter. It will change the dynamic.
Thanks so much for your kind words. Also, please know that I know EXACTLY how you feel, especially feeling jealous. I am flattered that you have asked me for advice. Honestly, I absolutely don’t feel qualified to give it. The only reason being that I’m hanging on by the skin of my teeth myself but I know in my 12 step meetings, when I’m giving service, it always comes back to me 10 fold. So, I will do my best to share my “experience, strength and hope” with you. Also, I just want you to know that whatever I suggest/say/advise, I am not critizing you in any way. You are doing the absolute best you can at this moment in the face of tremendous pain. I really do know how hard this process is and know that sometimes responses that I’ve gotten seemed “harsh” but now I thank god for everyone’s frankness and honesty.
First let me say that, to me, it seems as though you are still pretty “hooked in” to him, his actions and the situation. Again, I don’t mean any disrespect saying this. Have you ever thought of going to Co-Dependants Anonymous? It’s a 12-Step program that enables people to stop the emeshment, detach and develop healthy, loving relationships…with everyone in their lives. It’s been nothing short of a miracle in my life and I’m finding so much more about my behavior. I thought I was subservient but I find that I’m actually controlling. A true eye opener. I’m also just going to say a bit about the comments you made (quoted below) in your first post.
“At one time he was a very doting and loving husband. He also didn't deal w a lot of issues along the way (things like conflicts w his family, was resentful of the fact that i made more $ than him, didn't change my name, etc) - never brought those up in our marriage and now they are all coming out now that we are separated. I've done a lot of soul searching and absolutely recognize things I have done/said wrong along the way. I do believe if he'd give me the chance to show him the person I have become he'd be open to reconciliation, but he's very black/white and feels like there is too much water under the bridge, that i emasculated him, etc. (I think he had some of his own prior insecurities regardless, but he is blaming everything on me).
“he always gave into me - i think i was a bit controlling and he was a bit too differential to me..a dynamic we both contributed to”
“he never thought he was good enough for me. We also come from different backgrounds (cultural, socio-econ) and apparently he feels like I looked down on him. Not at all true, I admire him for who is is and where he's come from, and have repeatedly told him that lately but not enough during the marriage, he felt.”
My husband was the same way. Never communicated his issues to me during the marriage but now I find out that he had MANY. The relationship we had made him feel parented instead of an equal partner. This is the hard part and I am just admitting this finally, I didn’t like the fact that he made less money than I did. I wanted him to stand up, take responsibility as head of the household and take charge….only issue is that I never let him. So, I didn’t trust him to do the right thing with money so I did it all and then resented the fact that I did it all and became extremely passive aggressive about that resentment. I would make all the decisions and try to include him and say things like ‘I think it’s best if we _¬¬¬_____. Don’t you agree?” I am 9 years older, come from a completely different background then him (him from welfare projects and me from upper middle class) and he also felt that he married above him and never measured up. I, in my heart, felt I married beneath me and looked down on him.
All that said, I feel very different today. About him, about me, about our marriage but it’s taken since March of 09 to get to this clarity and a lot of 12-step meetings, lots of coming on this site and LOTS of reading.
I know that you think the “kid” card is a help to keep them there but honestly, for us, having the child in the first place was one of the biggest issues of our marriage. We got married and had a child all in the same year. NOT RECOMMENDED!!! DB’ing a marriage without kids can be done. Sometimes the kid thing had worked against me because in all honesty, he would like out of all the responsibilities of his life. He is also going through a bit of a MLC. It’s also tempting to use the kids to guilt them back and that does nothing but push them further away. The last thing about kids…..if this marriage doesn’t work out for you (and I’m praying that it does) you won’t have the added stress of knowing the children will be forever effected. I know that I, at times, will accept behavior from my husband that I shouldn’t because I just want to keep my daughters family in tact. NOT RECOMMENDED!!! I’m working on that though.
Now, about the money thing……my opinion is that you need to stop giving him money. For some reason that seems to have been the turning point for my husband. When I said that I would no longer finance his “way out” of this marriage and financially support him in any way, he somehow changed his tune. He was definitely not happy about it but I really think that was the turning point. Your H walked out….if you walk out and want to be independent, then be independent. I know that you feel that it will make him mad and possibly push him further way but you have to take that chance. Most importantly, it will give you some “power” back. Not in the “upper hand” way but you feel like a doormat and are behaving like one. DON”T. It may sound trite but no one will respect you if you don’t respect you. I know how hard this is. So hard that I couldn’t do it for MONTHS and we are not reaping the financial downfall from it…but you need to do it NOW.
I know it also sound counterintuitive but GAL your little bottom off. I don’t just mean exercise more….I mean, go out and do things fun and exciting. Seems like you have the financial means to do stuff…DO IT. For me it’s a bit harder because I’m so broke but I go to 2 meetings a week and go out after work with my co=workers and take people up on their offers for walking groups, etc. I keep as busy as possible with the focus being ME and my recovery. I call it recovery because I believe that I am addicted to people and the toxic relationship train. I’ve been on it all my life. I read that you are doing the GAL thing and I applaud your efforts. Just keep it up.
I have one last thing to say and this may be coming out of left field but this is just what keeps me hanging in there. I hope I don't offend you. I am a Christian. I do my best to not just talk the talk and live in a way that glorifies God. I left my marriage for awhile and forgot who I was. I am not back, fighting with every ounce of my being to save it. One of the biggest turning points for me was hearing a song called "Love's Not a Fight". It's from a movie called Fireproof. If I truly believe that I have made a covenant with my husband to be his wife, and I do, I will stay and fight. That doesn't mean I will be a doormat or that I will accept behavior that is demeaning. I'm just saying that I love my husband..not just the good parts but all of him. I realize that I cannot control or make him do anything, especially love me again. But i can control me and my actions and I will live every day, to the best of my ability, so that I can stand before my God one day and tell him I did everything in my power to save my marriage. This is why I try every day. Fighting for your marriage doesn't mean you beg, plead, guilt, scream and say I'm sorry ever 5 min. Sometimes fighting means that you just sit, be still and pray for God's will in your life. Become a better you in the process. If he wants out...so be it...but if you really, really are "in this" you stay and don't say die. Really examine the reason you want to be married. Do you feel that it's just too hard alone without someone? Do you want to stay married because it's the dream you won't let die? I have a very firm knowledge of why I stay. I love my husband and I made a promise to my child, to God and to H to never give up. I lost sight of that for a bit and I'm paying the price now. Luckily, God's grace is infinate and I know that I'll be forgiven but I have to do my part in the healing.
I'm praying that you get what you want. Mostly I'm praying that you allow God's will to determine where you need to be.
I have no idea if anything I said has helped but I felt really compelled to tell you that last part. Take good care of yourself..really, really good care. Sit and be still and know that you are precious creation.
Gina B
p.s. I'm on FB too. Come chat any time. I'm going to try and send a PM to you to see if I can get my FB name to you.
M 43 H 34 D 4 H asked for D on 6/21/09:1st D mediation 7/27;D says he wants to try 8/18; *I will stumble, I will fall down but I will not be moved.(N.Grant)
Gina, Wow - thank you so much...your note really touched me and yes, i do think i am still 'hooked in' to him to some extent, letting his actions and everything have more power over me than i would like. i do have the loving detachment article and have been reading it a lot to try to let go and be less dependent on the outcome of what he does. Your post and thoughts above are very inspiring and almost brought tears to my eyes. We have a lot of similarities above (in terms of our backgrounds and that of H) and i do think i came to resent that i took care of a lot of things in our M (I wanted him to step up, and yet he was afraid i'd be critical or controlling). I understand why he thinks I looked down on certain things, even though I was very proud of him. Everything you say above rings true for me too.
I guess I'm at the point where I'm getting very frustrated too, and I know starting to obsess about little things. So he texts me back this morning "L.A. is good and I'm busy working w friends" (he's out there few weeks doing some business plan w friends), and i want to respond "great, when do you get back?" It's like, I'm his wife, why should I be so afraid to ask him a simple question like that, but that is construed as pursuing. Is this OK to ask him when he's back? It seems harmless, but could it annoy him? I really just want to know b/c there are 2 remaining retrovaille dates near me in sept - we had talked about before and he'd never really given me an answer. I thought i might send an email to him about this next week, not pushy, but just for friendship/healing, possible closure? i don't know what to do at this point...it seems everything has potential to backfile and pearl was write when she said awhile ago i'm acting out of fear.
i need to take the control back. but how does one do that? feel that it's ok to send a harmless text/email without fearing the consequences? or be mysterious and GAL and not respond?
Did you purposely do no R talks for awhile? My H is so passive i'm afraid he's waiting for me to step up to the plate...and the moment i bring up R he'll make me feel it's my fault for pushing it, or something. I'm tired of these games, i'd like to have a normal adult honest conversation about our relationship and our marraige (at the same time he's not there right now, i know). Were you living apart?
Your email is so touching, thank you. I don't want to be in a toxic relationship and feel I deserve more, at the same time I am committed to my H. But he has not shown me really much desire to try to work on anything during our separation...even when i have not contacted him for weeks at a time (overall in our sep, he's contacted me more, but i've brought up more R talks).
I will read your email again. I will try to let go and let god and just work on taking good care of myself in this process. Thank you, and best to you. -hhh
BTW...this is advice that I forgot to add, believe you know, but you HAVE TO DO.
Anything STRONGER says, writes, illudes to....LISTEN, take great heed, and trust. SAGE ADVICE!!!!
M 43 H 34 D 4 H asked for D on 6/21/09:1st D mediation 7/27;D says he wants to try 8/18; *I will stumble, I will fall down but I will not be moved.(N.Grant)
Sigh...I feel like you're just holding on so tight because you don't want to believe what we tell you is true.
Yes, I'm still having issues with my BF but he did come back, admitting that everything I said was right and asking for another chance.
Stop pursuing him. That means Retrouvaille is out of the question. That means do not ask him how he's doing and what's going on. You're the one making it complicated.
If he wanted to be married to you right now he would be home with you. He doesn't. Stop living and acting from fear. Start moving forward with making yourself and your life the best one possible.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
Pearl is right. Look at it this way...when you started dating, you said H pursued you and pursued you like crazy, right? Who were you then? How did you carry yourself? Where is that girl?
This is what I think happened....he said he wanted out, you freaked and started pleading with him not to leave. Guess what? They enjoy that, esp. in a relationship that the WA sees as one sided, the LBS having all the power or control if you will for the majority of the relationship....then they say they are leaving and probably expecting a certain amount of "Whatever, go" out of the once dominate spouse. When that doesn't happen, when the once dominate spouse falls apart, it's a rush, a power trip. What makes you think he's going to give that up? And what makes you think he's turned on by it? It's strange...they feel power over you and that's so great because they've never experienced it and they love it, why wouldn't they? But at the same time, it's probably not that much of a turn on for them either. I could be wrong, but I've learned more about human nature over the course of these 9 months of DBing, I would bet money your H is having a power trip right now.
So really hhh, stop his trip short. How would the girl he met handle this? And I really want an answer...how would she handle this?
Man, I gotta say, are all Ms so different and yet the same? One thing that keeps striking chords in me is how much sitchs have the same features / background in so many diverse threads here.
H and Gina, I read about what you wrote about your Hs and in a way can identify with how they feel, except obviously in my case it was my W who went running into lala land. One of my W's frustrations with me was how she would want to run things exactly her way and never understood how I felt when she cut me down for even little decisions. One of the major push majors the month she went into her A was she felt I just dumped our house moving and renovations to her 100%, even down to calling her during important meetings to confirm where to place light switches etc. "Can't you be adult enough to decide ANYTHING?" was her reaction. Truth was - and this is hard to say - I was in fear of her reaction if I got it 1 inch wrong.
And yeah, she came from a much higher social and financial background than I did. Her dad threw her out of the house when he found out we were dating in our 5th year together and we broke up briefly then.
About 1+ year before her WAW mode, I did freak out, the years of unresolved issues, frustration, and yes non-existent sex life wore me down. She was shocked at my outburst, and even thought it was a prelude to a D speech by me. I reassured her, worked on controlling myself, but although I never intended anything drastic, the issues were swept under the carpet. Well, fast forward 18 months or so, and she handled her own frustrations in a way that led me here (eventually).
The stuff that you mentioned, hhh, my W said to me during our post-A healing. How it was not the career debacle I went through that hurt her, but how I handled it, how she did not know she was looking and acting down to me, how she was proud of me in some ways. (this was before she lost all respect for me leading to the A). But I honestly did not feel one iota of that, and looking back sometimes, I can understand at least some of how that could have driven a H to be wayward.
This is just an opinion that could be dead wrong, but if (a big if) there is no OW, in his current mind state, what is construed as pursuit would be a reinforcement of the very control and "contempt" he feels you had for him that drove him away. Sure, you do deserve better than his current behaviour, and you should GAL, but perhaps this is a consideration. As Stronger puts it, you can look at the girl you were when he fell in love with you, but perhaps the same girl that now recognises the disconnect over control and respect issues in your M.
Afterall, GAL involves working on areas that could have room for improvement in your life, for yourself. That should hopefully, be a signal for him to want to return. Although his dissatisfaction may have delusional parts that are only in his mind, showing that your are working to be better hhh who would be a better W wouldn't hurt perhaps?
Me 42 W 39 Married: 11 Jan 1998, T: Since 1992 First Bomb: Sep 2007 Confirmed A/OM: 4 Nov 2007 Kids: D10, S5 Reconciled and together again after (alot of) time and heartbreak. 3rd kid, S, born 2 Jan 2010.
You all pose good questions and considerations. I think I am just getting frustrated because I feel this has dragged on for so long, and am tired of being in limbo. I miss my H and my best friend, at the same time I am starting to feel that if this is going to end (not that I want it to) why drag it out forever? That has what's been prompting me to want to take a more firm stand lately, I think. I think it's hard for me to 'move on' while still married and in limbo (even though he's told me 'he's done'). Although I have decided to stay in Boston near-term, it's not where I will stay if we officially end...so it's making me think about "should I think about moving before this ends, should I wait.." Moving across the country is a huge step, so in some ways I do feel like I am waiting to see how my marriage pans out, but that is not really moving on and letting go, perhaps. (and it might make it easier for him to continue to ignore me indefinitely). I'm trying to move on for now while I'm here, but it's hard b/c I came here for him in the first place. I go to CA a lot b/c it's more 'my turf' but of course I'd rather stay here w him. The whole moving thing just feels very limbo for me as well.
How would the girl he met handle this? Good question. I think (at least looking at who I was at the time) i'd have an attitude of 'no biggie' and feeling like I didn't need him, I have other options, and I'm not looking for anything serious now (at the time I was not, then got to know him and friendship grew to more), maybe just wanted to have fun. I wasn't that into him in the very beginning, so in some ways that was also a criticism of me, though...that i was selfish or thought i was too good for him, or whatever. So I'd have to combine the best of what I was then w the lessons I've learned now. There are consequences to what I've said and done over the years so I don't know that he'd ever look past those, even if I was more like the girl he met years ago.
And then the dating question. I have a couple people who've said they want to set me up w friends. My cousin wants me to visit her in London and have a party so I can meet their mutual friends...all that would be in line w GAL and would be fun, but feels weird nonetheless.
I get the controlling/pursuing thing. Truth be told, maybe it sounds like I am here b/c I'm often considering 'do i do this, or that...' but i havent reached out to him, called, emailed in close to 4 months unless it's to answer a question...so I really don't feel like I've been pursuing him - I've kinda just let him go (although I admit the talks often turn to R b/c I get teary when he asks how i'm doing...and then I take us down that path...this I will stop).
Does that answer questions? The girl he met was confident, fun, interesting, easygoing, up for anything (but I was also going through a health issue at the time and there was part of him i think that liked being my 'provider' then - he carried my books to class and heavy bags). I'm trying to make myself better for me, I truly am, but if there is OW I just may not be able to compete with that at all.
My H avoids conflict too (as said many issues he never brought up in our marriage), and I do not want this to drag out forever (either way it goes) so maybe I'm just getting tired of it and feel like I don't want to wait around. That's the challenge, I know I should NOT and am trying to get on w my life, at the time time mentally it's kinda hard to when it's still not really done. One of my friends asked me "will it be hard for you to move on/move/date others when/if it's not yet officially over" and I think that's what I struggle with...wanting to move on and 'let go' of him, but it's hard when we're still legally married I guess. Maybe I should just in my mind pretend we are D? Weird stuff...all around, one day at a time, I guess.
Again, reach out to Gucci and Puppy. Do exactly what they tell you. I think your situation is right up their alley. I don't recommend it for everyone and neither do they, truth be told. But I think it's do or die time. I think their strategies are tried and true. They lived it and don't have an delusions that their way is everyone's way.....becuase it's not for the faint of heart.
Really, re-read what Gucci has posted to you and do it.
Thanks Stronger, I will take your suggestions to heart. I am not the most tech savvy person - how do I 'reach out' to Gucci/Puppy on this post? ('ping' them, if you will?)
I did re-read what Gucci wrote and am trying to make it my mantra as much as I can. I am starting (slowly) to grasp that letting go and giving up are not necessarily the same thing..
I am going to a wedding this weekend where my friend told me there will be a lot of singles. I know there is one guy my friend mentioned is interested, but I'm really not attracted to him. But I guess it will be good to get out there and flirt at least, have fun..
