Waiting More Than a Dozen Years

[Walking]

And if my life had remained sexless for the past 25 years after my first marriage, I would have known why...it would have been on my own terms and my own choice, not necessarily someone else's.

... and that is the point about living DELIBERATELY. Living authentically. Sincerely honouring your own best interests, rather than pinning your life to an external factor (partner/marriage, job etc).

You can live authentically in relationships, but only if that relationship is made, built and maintained keeping your own highest good as a priority all the time.

The difficulty with this is that in order to be able to really consider something as esoteric and nebulous as ‘my-highest-good’ in the context of a relationship - both partners need to be at the same stage of emotional maturity. Not many people are.

Imagine the endofTEGHsexlifetalk 12 years ago if you were both sufficiently emotionally mature to discuss it really honestly in terms of your ultimate higher good and your aspirations for your relationship.

Perhaps you would have agreed, in the interest of your love for each other and the value you placed on the relationship, to compromise. If you were both emotionally mature enough you perhaps could have come to a compromise that was sympathetic to your wife’s medical conditions, but still had intimacy that satisfied you. (I still can’t really believe that wasn’t something she was prepared/wanted to do???)

Instead, rather than go to the inconvenience and, let’s face it pain, of leaving the marriage you made the decision to compromise all … your wife compromised not a bit. With the benefit of hindsight, if you had been as emotionally mature as you are now, was your decision to stay really for your “highest-good”? Or was it because you are a good, kind man and you made a decision based on a set of circumstances including your wife’s health, other family stuff etc. Sometimes the right decisions are not the popular ones. You know that.

Always remember TEGH – you are not responsible for anyone else’s happiness. You are however responsible for yours.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

More follow up questions, TEGH;

(1) What kind of guys did you wife date or pair-up with with high-school while she was living under Daddy's rule? Was she a conformist who only dated nice boys who met with Daddy's approval? (you alluded to this when you mentioned her saying "Go as my father" to potential suitors) Or was she rebellious and sneaking out at night in order to hang out with the "bad boys" in school? In general, she a "Daddy's good girl," an "uppity prom-queen," or a "wild, party-girl,"?

I'm guessing a bit here, but she tended more to the wild side with some of the wilder, good-looking "bad boys" in high school. I mean, I've heard how good looking her first husband looked (this from her, her younger sister and her mother, I guess that makes me what? As an interesting aside, I found my physical from just before we got married. Although I was about 10 pounds heavier than I would have liked to have been when we got married, I'm only 19 pounds heavier than I was 17 years ago). The reason she told these "dirty old men" to ask her father was because she knew that if his friends came to him and asked him if they could go experience some of their fantasies with his daughter, he'd probably deck them on the spot.

(2) What kind of man does your wife find attractive and sexy now? What male movie stars or genres? Characters in books? Men on the street or at work? Do you know?

Italian police officers (or just about any police officer) in shorts...riding a bicycle

This is a lousy position to be in as the man in the relationship, especially when he *didn't* settle and she does turn *him* on. There are, however, ways to work around this and get her attention, sexually.

I'm not interested in a quid pro quo nor, frankly, am I interested in her changing just because I complained about it and she's just going through the motions. If it's not been important to her for all these years, then why should it be important now? Because there is some threat to her sense of security?

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

If you were both emotionally mature enough you perhaps could have come to a compromise that was sympathetic to your wife’s medical conditions, but still had intimacy that satisfied you. (I still can’t really believe that wasn’t something she was prepared/wanted to do???)

If anything caught me by surprise, it was this...disbelief that there was nothing she wanted to do with me. Unless women want men with extremely tiny penises that have difficulty in achieving and maintaining an erection and that reach climax in seconds (and I'm not any of that at all), I found that beyond belief.

It's not bragging if you can reproducibly "perform" and as a lover, I would take as much time as needed (or as little, if that was what was required by the circumstances) to make love. And although I would say I'm really out of practice, sexual performance was not nor never has been a problem. So stunned, was my response. It did not help that she had her own medical problems and that her mother had just suffered a stroke.

At one level, even I understand not leaving at that moment as my current wife did not leave her second husband for seven years until after her dad had died (and she was ready to go when he suffered a fatal heart attack).

At another level, I always thought she would reconsider. So surprise and then the realization and accepatance that she is not and will not change her position is one that I've come to.

In one sense I feel "lied to." I was very, very clear about what I was looking for right at the outset and although I was not looking for "the one" to replace the love I had lost, I was open once again to establishing a loving relationship and would allow it to be as long or as short as it would be.

What I had noticed was that women my age (and my ex-wife's age since she was only 9 days older than me) when I was 31-33 seemed to be all going through this tough early 30's passage with career, family, etc. A younger woman was not there yet and an older one would be through much of that (children, career, divorce). So that was part of the initial attraction.

What I keep coming back to is that fact that I ignored my intuition when it told me that the love I was looking for was not this "difficult." But the relationship with my first wife had been so easy until our son was born and look at where that got me? So, I doubted my own voice.

[Lostforwords]

TEGH,

I don't know if you ever ended up reading the "No more mr. nice guy" book or visiting the website. I know before you did not want too, but I suggest it. I visited the site the other day and it was pretty good. We can talk reasons and causes all day here, but you want change. She doesn't appear to be open to change and you are unsatisfied with it. Decisions and actions are definitely in store for you!

[Bagheera]

I'm not interested in a quid pro quo nor, frankly, am I interested in her changing just because I complained about it and she's just going through the motions. If it's not been important to her for all these years, then why should it be important now? Because there is some threat to her sense of security?

That wasn't what I was suggesting: I was simply stating that if she did indeed "settle" in the manner that I described previously, that all hope for you is *still* not lost (sexually). At the moment, however, we're still discussing her, and trying to figure out her own brand of sexuality a bit better.

Based upon your answers thus far, I'm going to propose a hypothesis to you. You previously wrote the following about her:

In remembering this, there is also this sentiment that she has stated more than once to other people: No man controls her and she has said directly to other men "Better men than you have tried." I don't recall her ever saying that to me (but she's probably said it to her friends about me).

My hypothesis is that the above is *exactly* what she fantasizes about in a man, sexually. That her sexual archetype is a man who is STRONG enough to conquer her and control her (at least in the bedroom). And by extension, the kind of man who turns her *off* is a WEAK man --> one whom *she* can control, both in and out of the bedroom. This isn't my own hair-brain idea: here is book recommendation for you:

Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies
by by Michael J. Bader

This is not a self-help book. This was written by a psycho-analyst for other psycho-analysts. You may not agree with Bader's theories on the topic -- that's alright -- he is, at the least, thought provoking. You might also try asking some of the women here on this forum if I am potentially on target or just out in the weeds with this notion --> *they* understand female sexuality far better than I do.

There is something else that concerns me regarding your situation. You wrote:

Oh, and we joke about this, about our marriage being the best kept secret in town, but in a way it is telling....There are a number of people who know we are married, but because she kept her last name from the last marriage (for professional reasons and I concurred with that), there are far more that don't know that.

Anyway, we held a retirement party for a friend of ours and the people that were invited to this party at our house...were mostly the friends of my wife or acquaintances with my wife...As the party wrapped up around 9:30 pm, I was going around picking dishes and stuff, putting stuff in the dishwasher, etc. One of the people who was left noticed and commented how nice it was that I was staying to clean up.

"I ought to, I pay the mortgage on this house every month."

How nice, he thought out loud, that I was kind and generous enough to pay the mortgage for her house.

I said to him, "John, I live here. We're married."

To him, he had seen us together for years, seen my wife in her professional setting with the same name that she had always had for as long as he had known her, and just knew this as her house.

In other words, you wife keeps her marriage to you HIDDEN from her friends and coworkers. That, coupled with her complete embargo of all physical intimacy with you for the past 12 years really makes me wonder if she is having affairs on the side. I am generally quite cautious about suggesting such things to folks here (this is the first time, actually), but I smell a rat here.

Are you certain that you aren't being made to play the cuckhold again, TEGH? She is definitely using you to provide the safety, security, and "loose-rein" environment that her father did for her while she was growing up --> are you certain that she isn't also "sneaking out at night" to play the "wild girl" (or something equivalent)?

-- B.

[Lostforwords]

B-That is an awesome pick up. I missed that when reading the older posts. It does seem extremely odd that a married person would hide their marriage to that extent. Keeping a last name for professional reasons makes sense to me....but her friend in your house talking like that....things that make me go hmmmm...Even my possible bisexual wife comes around for sex every now and then. It is hard to grasp anybody being devoid of a sexual urge for 12 years. There are ways to do it temporarily, but going without the touch of another human that long. interesting

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I don't know if you ever ended up reading the "No more mr. nice guy" book or visiting the website.

I did go to the website and took the test...scored a 29. Answered all the questions honestly. So, while some fits, a lot does not.

I am (generally) a nice guy, but its hardly a condition, syndrome, or disorder.

[Lostforwords]

I do agree...at some point whether it is nice guy, co-dependency, or some thing else....at some point we all fall into a category. Your situation is just so extreme there must be a painfully obvious reason for it all....just so hard to see. There are a lot of "maybe it is this", but nothing that is very hard and fast...well maybe the vibrating co-worker...lol

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

In other words, you wife keeps her marriage to you HIDDEN from her friends and coworkers. That, coupled with her complete embargo of all physical intimacy with you for the past 12 years really makes me wonder if she is having affairs on the side. I am generally quite cautious about suggesting such things to folks here (this is the first time, actually), but I smell a rat here.

I've thought about that myself and have even made the accusation a few times (before the sex life went all the way to zero). I do know that her first husband was in contact with her early on in the relationship and that she gave some consideration to being with him. And short of her either volunteering this or me finding out otherwise, there is no real way to know (just as I have considered that I might be the wrong sex for her sexual preference), is there?

But I also know this (and it is a reason why discussions on this site struggle to deal with this)...this behavior is also entirely consistent with what happens to many women that have a complete hysterectomy. It depends upon just how much leeway one is willing to give to the medical effects. I've given quite a bit of deference to that. It does not make it any easier, just a plausible explanation.

According to those stats (and I'm doing this from memory so the numbers might be off by a couple of percent), only about 20% of all women that go through the medical procedure end up with a sex drive equal to or greater than "normal." About 50% end up with a reduced sex-drive, and about 30% go to "zero."

It's been just over 10 years since she had the procedure (and there were lots of complications before she had the operation). That's why I know she is not a candidate for hormone replacement therapy.

On those other websites that deal specifically with this condition (hysterectomy and low/no sex drive), the people are equally perplexed. The ones where hormone therapy has worked swear by it. But others (both men and women) share a degree of frustration and anger but for different reasons as I've noted before.

So, while it's possible that there is another secret life here that involves affairs, it is equally plausible that its all hormonally related (just as it would be if you were castrated and you had no hormone therapy).

Just something to consider as a counter-offer and area for research.

Knowing all of this does not make it any easier, it just gives it an explanation for the behavior. And it still leaves me with a choice to make if this really is the way it is and will be for evermore (Thus, quoth the Raven).

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

well maybe the vibrating co-worker...lol

Indeed.

Now there's a situation I was really glad I did not get hooked by. And if you've ever encountered a situation where someone has been (or becomes) sexually inappropriate in an office situation....well, it's not a pretty sight.

I had a Christmas party for my coworkers at my house before I met my current wife (I was between the first marriage and meeting my current wife). I had the house completely decorated, including the Christmas lights that lined my brass framed waterbed. It was the decorated waterbed that intrigued my vibrating coworker, but I would not say very much about it. That probably was an extremely smart thing on my part (although when I met my current wife, she knew about the bed decorations from my coworker). No matter what my coworker tried, I simply ignored it.

See my response to -B for a likely and plausible explanation.