Must've Been That Mojo Boogie

[SmileysPerson]

@aliveandkicking

I don't see many here who are hung up on sex. Most of us are being very honest and candid and unabashed in our conversation.

Selection bias? In other words, what else do you notice about many of us here...?

[hoosiermama]

It is an infinite loop, just as how we all got to this point was an infinite loop. I spent a lot of time during the marriage and after xH left trying to figure out how to be sexually responsive so that he'd love me again, and trying to figure out why I couldn't make myself go there. (And no, on my worst, most angry, b*tchy day I would never have said "Ugh, this is boring"). I mean, I hated myself for it, I was ashamed because I couldn't respond, and I hated that he hated me for it too. But the bottom line is that I felt taken advantage of in every way, I felt used, I felt like none of my needs mattered--in the whole relationship (and in retrospect, I was correct). And while I knew that if I could manage to be sexual with him, he might soften and relate to me more as a lover than a mom, I never felt safe enough to be that vulnerable with him. Not that he's physically hurt me, but if I was so invisible in the relationship--how could I possibly feel desirable or find him desirable? I mean, I did it for years, and then I just couldn't make my body do it any more. I tried to be the one to break the cycle, to give more--but ultimately I was unable to do it.

Not saying Mrs. SP has these same issues; most women are more self-aware than to become a doormat as I did. Just wanted to give my insight into this topic of a woman's very fragile libido.

[SmileysPerson]

if I was so invisible in the relationship--how could I possibly feel desirable or find him desirable? I mean, I did it for years, and then I just couldn't make my body do it any more. I tried to be the one to break the cycle, to give more--but ultimately I was unable to do it.

I think some of this might apply to my sitch; clearly WAW felt invisible in the emotional sense -- when her mother died I wasn't there, I was still in the war. Not saying that excuses it, but that's what it was.

On the other hand, she was EXTREMELY visible to me as a woman and as a sexual person -- the day didn't go by, until right there at the end, where I didn't express my attraction to her in some way or another.

That, in fact, is one of my greatest humiliations in this sitch. When I was on Business Trip and Skype'd home to video chat with Themselves, before the kids came in the room WAW, who was looking at herself on the video screen, kept saying "How do I get rid of this image of myself, I look terrible," to which I said some kind of affectionate/horny thing -- and she said, "Oh. Thanks."

Of course what I knew later, but didn't know when I was expressing my desire, was that she'd already decided to divorce me.

I don't know why, exactly, but I find that memory to be among the worst of the lot -- just downright humiliating.

So while I get that there's a linkage between intimacy and sexuality, and with the one lacking the other would wane as well, it wasn't for lack of trying. At least from my POV.

[hoosiermama]

Yeah. Ouch. There are those moments when, in retrospect, you probably should have known the marriage was doomed, eh? I had one of those when xH was helping me out of the shower after major shoulder surgery less than a year before he left. There was such a look of disgust on his face when he saw me; I'll never forget that. I made sure I was never unclothed in front of him again, I'll tell you that--wasn't going there again, it hurt way too much.

But anyway, I digress. I don't know about your situation, but mine was that there were no terms of endearment, no words of appreciation, no expressions of gratitude, no in-between things like holding hands, touching, no goodbye kisses, ultimately not even "goodbye," just leaving. For years. And then I was supposed to be hot for him at a moment's notice because he was ready. There's a lot of in-between-ness, from no interaction to full-on sex. But you knew that. I was just married to a narcissist and didn't realize until it was too late.

And then there's the wounding. Yeah, there are daily small things, and there are things like "oh thanks" or "ugh, this is boring." And then there are major things, possibly. See, I would've given you a pass on that not being there for her mother's death thing, if you were away in the war. For me there were a few things, but the one I never got over was when I was in labor with our second stillborn son, and I spent the entire time alone while xH and his support person were in the hospital cafeteria. For hours. I might have been able to get past it if he had apologized or even acknowledged it--but he denied being gone. Like I was living some alternate reality. And I think at that point I realized he just didn't have the capacity to do anything else. Which didn't contribute much to my sense of feeling safe with him, y'know? Sorry--I didn't intend for this to be all about me, just giving some insight into relationship fractures.

[SmileysPerson]

Wow, sorry to hear about all that, hoosiermama. Actually your stillborn story sounds an awful lot like MY Hoosier Mama's story about the boy who was born before me. So I have a pretty good sense of how that hurt. In my son's case, he was struggling with breathing at birth -- cord around the neck -- and we had to rush him into the neonatal ICU. But as the nurses and the doctor and I were in the act of leaving WAW alone, naked, splayed out on the delivery table -- I at least commend myself for having had the presence of mind, even after all those hours of delivery, for shouting, "F*ck! Would someone please go sit with my wife??? Dumba**es!" as we wheeled the boy-child out of the room (and a nurse with the presence of mind to (a) take care of a post-delivery woman and (b) not piss off an extremely agitated husband went and did just that).

there were no terms of endearment, no words of appreciation, no expressions of gratitude, no in-between things like holding hands, touching...And then I was supposed to be hot for him at a moment's notice... There's a lot of in-between-ness, from no interaction to full-on sex.

In my case it was mostly in-between-ness, but I tried hard -- and I don't mean that to sound "martyry," I did it because I liked it -- to always be touching, flirting, winking, insinuating, eyeballing, etc. She'd get out of the shower, for example, and even though it was the crack o' dawn and she was in a rush for work, I'd still give out with an "oooo" or an "ahhhh" and find some excuse to "accidentally" brush up against her or gently glom onto a handy bit of her exterior, that sort of thing.

Well, you do what you can.

[hoosiermama]

Yes, well then you have something we never did. I was just tossing out these things to see if any of them "resonated" as they say. My situation is rather extreme, I think.

And let me briefly weigh in on this part....

It's precisely because of situations like you described with your son and your wife during/after delivery and in NICU, and because of Themselves, that Mrs. SP gets extra points in the final decision. Not because she merits them necessarily, and if there was abuse it might negate all of that--but because in giving Mrs. SP that handicap (think golf here, not wheelchairs), you're acknowledging that there's another entity involved here. And that is your marriage/your family. Which deserves some points of its own. And believe me, having lived through the hell of divorce for the past 16 months, there are ripple effects that you cannot possibly anticipate, that you cannot possibly understand until you have been completely broken by them. Just my 2 cents worth, there.

[aliveandkicking]

@aliveandkicking

I don't see many here who are hung up on sex. Most of us are being very honest and candid and unabashed in our conversation.

Selection bias? In other words, what else do you notice about many of us here...?

Yo no comprendo...

[aliveandkicking]

if I was so invisible in the relationship--how could I possibly feel desirable or find him desirable? I mean, I did it for years, and then I just couldn't make my body do it any more. I tried to be the one to break the cycle, to give more--but ultimately I was unable to do it.

I think some of this might apply to my sitch; clearly WAW felt invisible in the emotional sense -- when her mother died I wasn't there, I was still in the war. Not saying that excuses it, but that's what it was.

On the other hand, she was EXTREMELY visible to me as a woman and as a sexual person -- the day didn't go by, until right there at the end, where I didn't express my attraction to her in some way or another.

That, in fact, is one of my greatest humiliations in this sitch. When I was on Business Trip and Skype'd home to video chat with Themselves, before the kids came in the room WAW, who was looking at herself on the video screen, kept saying "How do I get rid of this image of myself, I look terrible," to which I said some kind of affectionate/horny thing -- and she said, "Oh. Thanks."

Of course what I knew later, but didn't know when I was expressing my desire, was that she'd already decided to divorce me.

I don't know why, exactly, but I find that memory to be among the worst of the lot -- just downright humiliating.

So while I get that there's a linkage between intimacy and sexuality, and with the one lacking the other would wane as well, it wasn't for lack of trying. At least from my POV.

Speaking for myself only ;), when the R was off, and when I felt let down and alienated from H, the compliments and sexual innuendo felt offensive and oblivious.

In my sitch, I think my responses were devastating and humiliating to H and those moments felt like utter sh*t to me too. I'm supposed to want that kind of attention and instead I felt hostile and objectified.

There have been recent studies on positive affirmations and how if they don't align with how you feel about yourself, they can actually compel you to defend your position more (internally) and feel like worse sh*t about yourself. This is not conscious stuff. If you tell someone who is overweight that they look skinny, they will argue their case with you. And, as I recall sharing with you in the alt, there is no bypassing a person's own perception of him/her-self.

Assumption ALert/AAK projecting-If Mrs. SP felt ugly and didn't even want to see a picture of herself, she was experiencing insecurity that was damaging your R (duh)...but it was not out of viciousness that she didn't accept your compliments or advances, it was out of her experiencing an unpleasant sensation because it didn't match or hold true. AND, some of this can be due to her insecurities, issues etc and some due to your delivery or non-delivery in other areas of the R...

Even now, in my sitch, it is just a more extreme version of the M. I use to joke that H would f*ck me while we signed D papers and I was right. His expressing his sexual attraction to me now that we are separated and the sky isn't just falling but has fallen, really exemplifies what we are talking about here. It just doesn't cut it in the scope of everything else.

So while you were obviously mindful of making your sexual attraction to her known (a good thing), too much else was off for that to feel genuine, personal and significant beyond you having an itch that needed to be scratched or however she experienced it (me assuming again).

This is so simple in some ways but seems to be so hard to express succinctly. And it doesn't assign fault which is impossible to quantify (IMO).

Best stated, I think we were all shooting not just at moving targets but maybe at the wrong targets too.

[aliveandkicking]

She'd get out of the shower, for example, and even though it was the crack o' dawn and she was in a rush for work, I'd still give out with an "oooo" or an "ahhhh" and find some excuse to "accidentally" brush up against her or gently glom onto a handy bit of her exterior, that sort of thing.

When H did that it felt like ogling and groping to me...well, I know our dynamic was jacked up in other areas so it carried over but the delivery was awkward too.

[RedSoxFan]

Selection bias? In other words, what else do you notice about many of us here...?

Yo no comprendo...

Biased conclusion based on who or what you decide to look at.