I thought of something else that makes me angry. We are admonished in DBing to look coldly at ourselves and our role in the D. What was Walkaway asking for / needing / looking for that we didn't provide? "Do you hear what Walkaway is saying? Are you speaking Walkaway's love language?"
But there's relatively little said about looking at the underlying dynamic there; why did LBS begin (for example) to shut down? What was Walkaway failing to provide?
This struck me today while thinking about @Kettricken's posts (and no, we're not 5 but there are some words that we can finesse in the interest of public discussion). WAW didn't even get me a card on our anniversary, which was 3 months before D-Day, or for any number of my recent birthdays or even Valentine's Days - while I never forgot. Now that sounds trivial, and perhaps it is, but the fact is she was withdrawing her affection over time and simply sat around (apparently) waiting for me to figure it out. Now perhaps I ought to have been able to do so, but how do you do that - just let someone soldier along in blissful ignorance while simultaneously getting angrier and angrier that the person doesn't get it? If it mattered, if you wanted it, wouldn't you say something? The most I got from WAW was "things need to change or something's going away" - and to this day she insists it should have been "obvious" that she meant "divorce." In hindsight, maybe, but she said it in this casual way (sorting laundry) - how was I supposed to know "this was it"? No, she just let me meander down the primrose path while she pulled all affection (and sex) from me. And the one time she decided to m/l before the Bomb (and the first time in 4 months at that), she stopped me in mid-foreplay and said "ugh, this is boring."
So WTF? When do I get to assess what I wasn't getting out of the M and when do I get to give that equal due, equal respect, to what I take to be my own shortcomings in the R?
As for when you get to assess what you weren't getting out of the marriage... NOW. This is your time to determine every single thing you didn't get out of the marriage. You're in the unique situation of being the LBS who is now becoming the WAS, the dynamic is changing, your wife is showing subtle signs of pursuit, nothing major but let's admit that she wasn't pursuing at all for a long period of time, any movement in this direction when she was going in the opposite direction originally would be considering her pursuing you.
As for the WAS and their lack of communication. When you start to hear things like "things better change or something is going away" or something to that effect, the decision has been made already at their end, they're just counting the tick tocks on the clock at that point when to make their move. They've been keeping a mental scorecard of everything the LBS does inadequately. Women have a portion of the brain that is more developed for emotional intuition and communication, that's why they are great at communication with with their girl friends: they read each other and talk to each other quite easily, the conversations flow. However men don't have the same development in this area and NO we're not idiots, it's just an area that we're not created equally and that's just a plain scientific fact. We have other "gifts", we have more testosterone, we grow more muscle, we're physically stronger, we're better suited at hunting, physically fighting (well that was before classes like TAE-BO and before UFC became popular with women). Women have better abilities at performing tasks, organizing, etc. There are differences between the sexes. Getting back to my point, women & men, the communication struggle will always be there until men get an education in this area - I'm seriously believing that our education systems need to involve this in the curriculum at one point. We're not emotionally intuitive (at least not to same level, I can't actually say we're NOT), we can't read women's body language as well as we should be able to, it's possible this ability was phased over so many generations - who knows. We're not emotionally intuitive, our communication skills aren't as developed as women (I'm not talking reading/writing, I'm talking conversation communication, listening and replying back & forth, etc.). If we had these sames skills, we would pick up on these issues with women alot earlier. Once you have an education in this area, it isn't a magic trick anymore, it is possible to see the signs, anticipate the issues, read the body language, respond accordingly, and all the while still being the masculine man that these women need for their security, to keep their attraction ramped, to keep them giving back as much as they're receiving in the relationship, etc.
No it's not fair, it sucks having to learn all of this after the fact but then again, no one said life is fair and if you hadn't gone through this process SP, you wouldn't be anywhere near the man you are today and the skills you have picked up thus far have got your wife at least looking in your direction - she is the fish that has seen this hook before but the bait has changed and she is very cautious as to whether she wants to bite that hook again because she expects the same results as the last time and that's not what she wants. Your advantage here is that plain & simple... you don't want those same results either, or the same relationship, the old one is dead (by your own account), the new one has to be something different otherwise why bother?
I thought of something else that makes me angry. We are admonished in DBing to look coldly at ourselves and our role in the D. What was Walkaway asking for / needing / looking for that we didn't provide? "Do you hear what Walkaway is saying? Are you speaking Walkaway's love language?"
But there's relatively little said about looking at the underlying dynamic there; why did LBS begin (for example) to shut down? What was Walkaway failing to provide?
This struck me today while thinking about @Kettricken's posts (and no, we're not 5 but there are some words that we can finesse in the interest of public discussion). WAW didn't even get me a card on our anniversary, which was 3 months before D-Day, or for any number of my recent birthdays or even Valentine's Days - while I never forgot. Now that sounds trivial, and perhaps it is, but the fact is she was withdrawing her affection over time and simply sat around (apparently) waiting for me to figure it out. Now perhaps I ought to have been able to do so, but how do you do that - just let someone soldier along in blissful ignorance while simultaneously getting angrier and angrier that the person doesn't get it? If it mattered, if you wanted it, wouldn't you say something? The most I got from WAW was "things need to change or something's going away" - and to this day she insists it should have been "obvious" that she meant "divorce." In hindsight, maybe, but she said it in this casual way (sorting laundry) - how was I supposed to know "this was it"? No, she just let me meander down the primrose path while she pulled all affection (and sex) from me. And the one time she decided to m/l before the Bomb (and the first time in 4 months at that), she stopped me in mid-foreplay and said "ugh, this is boring."
So WTF? When do I get to assess what I wasn't getting out of the M and when do I get to give that equal due, equal respect, to what I take to be my own shortcomings in the R?
Quote:
A new N.U.T. for me - if something bothers me, I am going to bring it up.
seems Mrs SP is in the drivers seat because of some of your silence - maybe?!
You have a great voice SP. First part of DBing is getting rid of negative emotions, can't do that by holding them in. You have been doing the work on you. To get the feedback you are craving you need to start a dialouge. Use your voice and lead. You can handle it brother.
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I too have been thinking for a while about some of what you posted. WAS begin the shut down in most cases months before the bomb. And so do some LBS, I think. And in my case, taking a cold, hard look at myself. I KNEW something was wrong. I KNEW that I no longer felt the same but I said nothing. I KNEW H was no longer doing little things he always did. He was shutting down for aeons and I see that so clearly now.But, so was I in a sense. I was wondering "Is this it? Is this all there is?" WE got boring and I guess we both looked to the other person to "get it" and change. Instead of being the change, I looked for the change.
So much of getting the kind of love you want depends on how much you give to the other person. And after much self examination I can see where I have been selfish in my M and did not give what he wanted to receive. I waited to be given what I wanted.
I think this WAS/LBS thing is so circular. I now truly own my contribution to where I am. I have forgiven H and just as importantly I have forgiven myself.
So, not meaning to hijack your thread but it just got me thinking again.
Once you have an education in this area, it isn't a magic trick anymore, it is possible to see the signs, anticipate the issues, read the body language, respond accordingly
Dunno. How does that sort with (IMO, excellent) advice like "If someone is acting angry, don't assume it's about you and get ready to go to war; maybe they had a hellacious commute, just got bad news about a relative, etc/FITB." I don't see how you can have it both ways, ie,
1. If spouse is in bad mood, don't assume it has anything to do with you .....
YET
2. If spouse is in bad mood, they *are* telling you what the problem is, just in a "female" non-verbal way. Educate yourself.
(HEAD EXPLODES)
The time and resentment I misspent being sad that my husband didn't "just know" when I wanted/needed a hug....when it should have been obvious to a slow-for-her-age oppossum that he would *never* naturally roll that way without some serious schoolin' because of his FOO.
You absolutely do have to let people know how you love to be loved. In words. Sometimes, repeatedly. Unless, of course, you ENJOY feeling resentful, starved, and misunderstood.....
Another observation: Few things irritate me more than stomping around in a fishwifey mood and hearing, "Is it me/did I do something .....????" from Excellent Spouse. To his credit he doesn't do that much anymore. It's irritating because the subtext isn't so much "I'm sorry you're hurting; can I help?" as it is, "Tell me I didn't make you mad; take away my guilt." Which gives the impression that the inquiry is not as much about the person hurting as the self-image of the person asking. My opinion, having been on the asking side of that equation too.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
The most I got from WAW was "things need to change or something's going away" - and to this day she insists it should have been "obvious" that she meant "divorce."
Same damn thing here. I should have obviously known that, "We have a communication issue" really meant "I'm going to ask for a divorce next month." We argued on this point several times post-bomb and never got close to an agreement that she really said what she meant nor offered to work on issues.
As pointed out, WAS was probably already checked out.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Hey, SP. This struggle of yours worries me; your head is all twisted around -- I can hear it in your voice.
Let me ask you a question I asked myself: If you were an outside observer, what would you say you "got" from your wife in the last, say, 5 years? Aside from the obvious [she means my kids]. When I asked myself that, the answer was pretty illuminating. It's hard, because you're where you are. There's a tendency to gild the lilly and answer in the way that best suits the way you feel. But you owe it to yourself to just have to try and be totally honest, come hell or high water.
I'm sure there's more. But 20 hours into the thing, the rest comes out on the debit side of the ledger. Really, since the war, it's been a different M altogether. No, scratch that -- it's been a differentR.
I wish I could assuage many of your assertions that if only WAW had spelled it out...if only we had discussed that the ship was sinking...then we could have done something about it. H and I felt it, talked about it and still were clueless as to what the heck to do about it. And once I got that he was leaving and felt the pangs of living in purgatory, there was no winning him back...but he feels that I "killed the marriage" and I see where he is coming from.
SP, you proclaim that your marriage was providing as little to you as it was to her. You were unsatisfied...and what did you do about it? Were you so self-aware as to know that the end was imminent and to express your lack of fulfillment? I suspect it is only now that you are even recognizing it.
I agree with so much of robx's post, except that the WAW is plotting and scheming to leave. The WAW and the LBS are firing at moving targets. I, the woman who was incredibly thoughtful, always planning birthday parties and procuring spectacular gifts for H, gave him NOTHING on our anniversary pre-bomb. He gave me a beautiful ring and a lovely card...is this because I was a sucky wife and he was an awesome husband? No, two months earlier, I had thrown him the party of a lifetime that took me a year to plan. I was trying to fulfill his needs and he was trying to fulfill mine. By the time the anniversary came around, I was depressed and feeling hopeless...
My point is that we "try" in different ways and while one may ponder exiting for a loooong time (H now says he was "done" long before the anniversary with the ring and card and I know I contemplated leaving too) you aren't out until you are out. I have a soon to be WAW friend who vacillates from day to day. A few good days, she thinks "maybe" then it goes south and she feels she can't take another day.
And, I have to say that W being bored during foreplay is pretty depressing for her too and that she would say it is just awful but then again, we are chiding her for NOT communicating enough too. And what if the WAW doesn't know how to make it different. The one time I tried to spruce things up and take the initiative, H made some juvenile comment and killed it...this is not easy stuff when trying to reinvigorate in the bedroom. It is demoralizing for both parties.
I guess I am saying that yes, you are finally getting a clearer picture of the "truth" of your M. That you are only acknowledging now that you were unsatisfied then, does not mean you were not acting on those feelings and contributing to the dynamic, it means you were rather oblivious to what was happening with yourself and your M. And I say that with all due respect and affection...and presumptuousness (so forgive me if I'm off)...
I don't want this to come across like beating a dead horse/wallowing in the past .... it may or may not matter much for your relationship with WAW, but it hella sure matters going forward into any new relationship.
(to repeat myself) What did you think when she said the ugh boring during foreplay? What did you say/do? Why?
What did you think when you got the lackluster response to your anniversary gestures? What did you say/do? Why?
You may not want to go there right now, and that's fine ... but I'd sure recommend going there at some point.
(Afterthought: with no intention of attributing evil... don't forget that FFF has a horse in this race too. Sophisticated intellectual women don't really compete less, they just know how to make it a lot more subtle. Too subtle to be aware of it themselves sometimes. IMHO.)
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
