Hi everyone. I thought I'd better start a new thread before getting locked out of the old one. Here are the links to my three previous threads in case anyone is up for some serious reading.
Needless to say, the Thread-O-Fun didn't turn out to be as much fun as I'd hoped considering that I'm still here and still looking for answers. At about 10 p.m. tonight (Saturday) after getting my girls to sleep I set aside my ever-growing fear of rejection and attempted to initiate with my wife. She had just gotten in bed after a fairly leisurely day around the house, a nice dinner, and a couple of glasses of wine. I crawled into bed and was turned down immediately due to my wife's impending heartburn from eating too late. While I think that's a perfectly good reason to not want to fool around, the problem is that my wife ALWAYS has a reason not to have sex, or to do anything even remotely romantic. After being rejected, I said something like "I'd really like to make love to you - how about later or in the morning?". And she replied "So that's why you came down here - to start an argument!" I'm telling this to point out how hard it is to talk to my wife about sex. Basically, if the word sex (or intimacy, romance, etc.) comes out of my mouth, I have started an argument. Therefore, in her mind I'm the bad spouse and it should be obvious to me why we never make any progress. After all of the great advice that I've gotten on here and everything that I've read in books, on the internet, etc., I'm at a complete loss - still. It's so frustrating!!!
After her comment about me starting an argument, which made me mad since it was fairly obvious that I had not intended to start an argument - quite the opposite in fact - we did get into an argument. It was relatively tame and short. I told her that I couldn't take this much more and that something had to change. I mentioned that our problem is not uncommon and that there's tons of information out there for someone in her situation that wants to regain their desire - yet she won't look at any of it. I asked her if she'd go to counseling with me and she said no. Finally I said I'm going out and I'm not coming home tonight - if you call me and tell me that you're willing to work on this problem I'll come home. So being the wild, unfaithful husband that I am, here I sit at my Mother's house on her computer since she's out of town for the weekend. For all my wife knows I'm out picking up some sex-crazed college girl. Actually, I hope she knows me better than that, but I'm curious what's going through her mind right now. I haven't gotten a call from her yet - and probably won't as she's way too stubborn for that.
I've got to solve this problem because I don't see divorce as an option. I probably make my wife sound like a complete witch on here, but that's actually not the case. With the exception of the sex/romance issue she is a wonderful wife and I can't imagine going through life without her. Plus, I've got two daughters that I couldn't bear to be separated from, nor could I stomach what a divorce would do to them. The only way I could ever end up divorced (at least by my own decision) would be if another woman was to catch me in a moment of weakness and convince me that being with her would be worth all of the problems that go along with divorce. And I don't see that happening. I absolutely love attractive women and probably tend to drool over them worse than most guys, however I honestly don't want someone else - I just want my wife.
This is getting long and I'm getting tired so I guess I'll wrap it up. I have to find some way to get through to my wife - and I really don't expect anyone to tell me anything that I haven't already heard. But if anyone has an idea, I'm listening. I know that I need to try something different, so I'll start by signing off with my real name.
Hey sooner, Sorry to hear about your night--it sounds positively dreadful. I can completely feel your pain of putting "yourself" out there, only to get accused of trying to start a fight.
I would suggest that the next time this happens, do NOT take her bait and allow it to escalate into a fight. When that happens, she has effectively turned all the scrutiny and attention towards the fight and away from the real topic--why she refuses to try having a sex life.
If you stay calm and collected, but stand your ground and don't give in to the "fighting temptation" she will have no choice but to do the same. What about asking her, "Why does me saying the word sex mean that I want to start a fight?"
Also, does she understand that you have no intention of ever giving up on this? Sometimes I really think that the LD spouse thinks they can win this 'battle' (for lack of a better word) simply continuing to shove it under the carpet. They erroneously think that someday the HD spouse will "get it" and just give up on ever having that in their marriage. It just isn't so. An HD person will give up on that particular LD person, but not on having a satisfying sex life altogether. I, as an HD person, just cannnot SEE how they could think that this is something that one can just toss to the side. Yes, yes, I understand that THEY don't put any importance on it so it doesn't seem like that much of a big deal, but the thing is.......they KNOW their spouse right? They have heard time and time again how integral it is to them, and still they attempt to get that person to toss it aside? Is that true love? No way!
I am ranting now and not offering one iota of support to you. I just feel so frustrated when I read things like this. I wish I could offer more constructive advice. But all I have is this: when you do return home, refuse to let is escalate into a fight. Stay calm and low-voiced and loving and stand your ground. You deserve to have a loving relationship with your wife.
As I read your posting, I see myself. The only difference is, I am a woman with the same problem with my husband.
He will not talk about it, but last night I decided we had to do something. It was also a night for us that I was hoping for something, that of course led to another excuse.
I finally asked if he would compromise. No sex, just something physical. Some hugging and kissing and talking. We didn't talk about why he didn't want sex though. He was willing and I think because the pressure was off to have sex, it made him a little more at ease. I do know if the sex is going to happen any time soon, but at least we have made a start.
Do you think she would be willing to try? Or maybe you already have. I'm new here and don't know alot yet, so my advise may not be the best, but I do know exactly how you feel.
I too, want my marriage to work. We have been through so much together that I would have never thought that this is what would tear us apart.
Good Luck! And don't give up just yet. I know I'm not.
Thank you honeypot. Even though you may feel like you're just ranting at times, it helps me so much just to know that someone cares and understands what I'm going through. Sure I'd love for someone to give me the magic solution to all of my problems, but I realize that no magic solution exists. Any little bit of advice that I can get is helpful, even if it's something that I've heard before, and I think that your suggestion of not letting things escalate into a fight is a good one. I'll try harder in that respect, but here's what makes that hard to accomplish. No matter how lovingly or calmly I approach my wife, after about two minutes of just talking about the sex issue she'll blow her top. She'll scream at me, throw something, stomp out of the room and slam the door, etc. After that point if I were to continue the conversation, no matter how calmly, she would perceive it as a fight since she made it clear that she doesn't want to talk about it. So my only option really is to shut up and go on with my life. However during the weeks that follow nothing will change and eventually the whole thing will happen again. How can we make any progress when we can't even communicate about the problem?
It's Sunday morning and I'm still at my Mother's house. My wife never called during the night so I called her this morning. We talked, and argued, for quite a while on the phone and as usual I doubt that anything good will come of it. But as soon as I get done on here I'll head home, try to regroup, and go on with my life hoping that something will change.
Something she said this morning struck me. She said that she has made an effort - we had sex a month ago. Trying t make a point I replied something like "what if I said you're wrong that I don't do things to help you around the house - I washed the dishes a month ago". Then she said "yeah, but you don't have a problem doing the dishes". That, and the subsequent conversation, leads me to believe that to her sex isn't just something like doing the dishes that you have to do but don't get overly excited about - it's something that is for some reason nearly impossible for her to make herself do. In fact, she called it "monumental". Maybe this is where I could use the insight of the low desire spouses since I can't fathom viewing something as wonderful as sex as being so unbearable. When she said that, I told her (again) that considering the seriousness of this problem, I really feel that the only way we're going to make some progress is to seek counseling. She doesn't want to, but she gave me a very slim hope that she would consider it. I'm going to start looking for a counselor and at the moment I have no idea how to find the right person. I think it should be a woman as I don't think my wife will listen to a man. And I think it should be someone that values marriage and specializes in dealing with sexual issues similar to ours. Otherwise I have no idea so any advice is welcome.
I'd better get home now. My wife called a few minutes ago and we were again on speaking terms. She has some things that she put off doing yesterday and really needs to get done so I told her that I'd take the girls to the zoo. That should be fun, although it was hard to make that offer because I really don't feel like doing anything for my wife at the moment. But I think it's the right thing to do. What do you guys think?
Thanks for your input kabelle. I've basically tried that before, but it's possible that I didn't go about it in the right way. It's certainly worth another try. And believe me, I'm not giving up.
sooner, I haven't read much of your stuff lately but weren't you, at one time, trying to not initiate very often? Are you still trying to give her lots of space and staying away from the sex thing? If so, what are you doing with the frustration and bad feelings while giving her space?
She baited you last night and you took the bait. It's like someone has already said, it took the focus off the real issue and put it back onto you and your behavior. It's a defense mechanism of hers to not have to deal with it. Maybe if you change your expectation before you even go in for the kill you will be able to resist her attempts at baiting you and changing the focus. If it's long periods of time between initiating and if you are doing without to a point that you are highly frustrated then you are primed emotionally to not deal with her rejection in a more solution oriented manner. Know what I mean?
Being more aware of how you are feeling and how you want to react to her before you initiate will keep down any negative reaction to her rejection. I think the newagers call it being "mindful."
I can remember a time when my ex did something to me. I left the house for the night....thought I would show him a thing or to. HA!! By the time I left in his mind I was the cause of the problem...I was the one overreacting and my leaving was just more proof that I was being unreasonable. People who can't or won't face and deal with their own problems are skilled at turning it around and making it the other guys fault. You play a role in allowing her to do that. The trick is to respond in a way that keeps her from being able to shift the blame...put it in her lap and let her deal with it. Cathy
Hi Sooner Sorry to hear you are having such a bad time. It's really tough. (((((((sooner))))))).
You have got to sort this out. I don't think you would ever want a divorce over this, but what is going to happen to your M? All the frustration, fighting, unhappiness. It's not good for either of you. Marriages are pretty fragile things that take a lot of care even when they have no real problems as such. So you have to do something. What about your kids, they will pick up on tension between you and your W and it will upset them.
It's just so hard to suggest something but I am going on the counsellor route again. This would be a 180 for you. Even if she refuses to go with you it will send her a message that you are serious about this, and perhaps you can get some help from the C about what to do. Definately need a good one tho, not sure but I think there may be something on this site about finding one somewhere. You've tried the backing off for a while now and that didn't seem to work. Maybe time for something different? Have you tried the letter thang yet, being more open about your feelings but at the same time very nice and reassuring. Don't bother with that tho if you think it won't work, you've got to try some new stuff here. Perhaps you need to be a bit more assertive with her, it's sounds like ordinarily you are really nice and understanding. I'm not in favour of being unpleasant, but you need to stand up for yourself.
Well just some ideas for you to think about. I am sure you'll sort something out in the end.
Hiya Sooner, Yes I can relate to the type of fight you are referring to. It is impossible to get any real talking done, what with all the anger and blame-slinging.
Here is my latest suggestion: Give her some advance warning that you want to have a sex talk. Tell her, "I have some things I need to discuss with you about our sex life but I do NOT want it to escalate into a fight. I'm telling you now because I know that you will get angry, but I'd like for you to let me know when it is a good time to talk." Then back off and give her some space to think. She will most likely try to bait you into a fight right then, but do whatever you have to do--grab her by the arms and look her in the eyes and say "I'm not going to fight with you about this" or whatever.
Then...I'm not done yet......:)......when she is ready to talk to you, suggest that you both collaborate on what is an acceptable sex life for your marriage. That is: Is once a month acceptable to you both? No. For her to tell you that you just had sex a month ago is insulting to you and it completely disregards what YOUR needs are, in the matter. Anyway, try to cover as many areas as you can, in as calm a manner as you can muster. Frequency, time spent together, creativity, enthusiasm--whatever your issues are, try to cover them all while you have her attention!
I don't think that any LD spouse really believes that once a month is an acceptable amount of sex in a marriage. They might think that it is acceptable to THEM, but they know that they are neglecting their marriage. (yeah, I know I'm throwin out huge generalizations and I fully expect to get slammed for it, ha ha)
I also think that it is their greatest wish to keep the "secret" to themselves. She does not want you to know that she also agrees that once a month is not healthy for a marriage, because then she will be obligated to do something about it.
One more thing: Try to keep the conversation about your marriage and your sex life. The kids, her job, yes they are all legitimate factors in her lack of desire, but they don't ABSOLVE her from facing this problem head on. Even in light of the stress in her life, once a month is still neglectful, in my opinion!
I guess what I am saying is to FIND A WAY to have a sexual dialogue with her without it turning into a fight. My husband and I are successful with this about 75% of the time, which is a huge improvement over the past when we couldn't discuss it at all without an ensuing brawl. Let her know that you will be continuing to look for a way to talk about this without her getting mad.
Now, I am HD, let me throw that disclaimer out right now! So this advice goes directly against what your other tactics have been, namely to reduce the pressure etc, and it might not work. But I have taken the stance in my marriage that I am absolutely NOT going to allow my H to bury his head in the sand and act as if this problem doesn't exist. I am nice and kind and loving and quite resourceful in thinking of ways to deal with it--but "sit back and hope for the best" is not in my emotional vocab.
Good luck to you and try not to do TOO much for her today, lest she interpret that as you being "wrong" in your actions and now coming over to her side. She needs to take responsibility for her part in the breakdown.
I told my shrink once that I was tired of going in circles, too.
"So stop going in circles," he says to me.
"Yeah. And just how do I do that?" I shoot back at him.
"Walk a straight line," he says simply.
"Walk a straight line," I repeat. "Gee, you make it sound so simple. Why didn't I think of that?" Imagine a voice thick with sarcasm.
"Oh, it's not easy," he said to me. "Especially for someone like you."
"Someone like me?"
"Yes, you are a fixer. You fix everyone, everything. Except for yourself. Walking a straight line is called drawing boundaries. When you refuse to go in circles anymore, that only leaves straight lines. Boundaries. Don't engage, don't disengage. Just walk your line."
Boundaries, Sooner. I think someone above hit upon this. Your wife pulls you into arguments so she doesn't have to face something very uncomfortable. I don't know why it is uncomfortable, though I've made some educated guesses.
Go to the counselor. He or she will teach you how to stay on your line and not allow your wife to spin you off in uncontrollable circles.
And don't leave again. It's the ultimate power play... like hanging up when you are arguing with someone on the phone. Just sleep in another room of the house until you cool down.
She knows she's not being fair to you. If you start going to a counselor, she'll go eventually. But start with yourself first... she'll follow.
Cathy, Jiji, honeypot, and Corri - thank you all so much for your input and for showing me that you care. I usually try to respond individually to everyone who offers me support, so I apologize for lumping you all into one post. I still need to go run tonight so I can't spend too much time replying right now, but I wanted to make sure that you all know how much I appreciate you.
Cathy - you're right that I was trying not to initiate and to give my wife space. I've continued to do that for the most part, but I admit that I've been a bit more flirtatious lately. I've kept a pretty good handle on the frustration and bad feelings, though they do come to the surface occasionally. I've tried to put my energy into running and golf - both fairly new "hobbies". I'm dreading running tonight though.
I agree with you that I have to learn how to keep from being baited. I think I can go into a potential argument or rejection refusing to let it become an argument as long as I prepare myself mentally. Right now I don't know how to keep my wife from being able to shift the blame - but I'll be trying to figure that out. Any guidance that you or others can give me would be much appreciated.
Jiji - you're certainly right about the kids picking up on the tension and getting upset. This is a big concern of mine and I know that arguments which have carried over to times when the kids were around have upset my 5-year old before. That makes me feel terrible. The counselor suggestion is one that I feel like I've got to follow through with and I plan to start checking into them in hopes of finding the right one. I have tried the letter on a couple of occasions and thought that it would really help. It's definitely easier to "talk" to my wife when I can think out what I want to say. Once the argument gets going I tend to go blank. Unfortunately however, the letters that I've written didn't seem to do much good. With regard to becoming more assertive, I'm usually about the nicest person you could ever meet - which definitely hurts me at times when dealing with this issue. But when the argument gets going I become mean in a way that I never knew I could be. At that point, I'm definitely assertive, but that's probably not the kind of assertiveness that's going to help.
honeypot - I like your suggestion about giving my wife some advance warning concerning the sex talk. If we're ever going to be able to talk about this issue like adults, that may be the only way it will happen. I'm a bit worried that when I ask her to let me know when it's a good time to talk, that time will never come. But I guess that's where the assertiveness that Jiji mentioned could come in handy. Also, I agree that I should try to keep the conversation about our marriage and sex life. I've made the mistake before of bringing up the issues with her job in the middle of things which changes the whole discussion completely.
Corri - like you, I am a fixer. That's one reason that this whole thing is so frustrating - because it's the one thing that I can't seem to fix. Over the course of the summer I've basically learned how to hit a golf ball by reading about it, and I'm continuing to improve a lot with very little help from others. I've always felt like I could learn how to do anything on my own if I set my mind to it. But this situation is different. I need to learn how to "walk a straight line" and it's going to take some outside help. I'm convinced that I've got to find a counselor - and I'm still not very excited about it but I plan to do it nonetheless. I'll keep you posted.
By the way, I had a wonderful time today at the zoo with my girls. We stayed at the zoo all afternoon when they usually only last a couple of hours. It was the perfect way to clear my head and remind me of my priorities.
