I read the ENTIRE thread and boy did I learn a lot, even about my own notions of detachment vs. withdrawal.
My first thought on that, recognizing that I have reached a point of what I consider healthy detachment, withdrawal proceeded detachment...I had to withdraw some to get my bearings and secure my own mental health.
What you refer to here GMA, is not just words to me. I feel the torment and your mental health IS at stake.
I have received no better advice than from Coach. So re-read and seek out other threads he has posted on. If it doesn't resonate, than you are not ready. Don't beat yourself up (that is useless). Just keep going back to those posts and as you EXPERIENCE the truth of your sitch more and more, you will experience the words you read differently. People try to make this an intellectual exercise (I sure do), figure everything out, dissect, insist our sitches are unique in some way BUT, the 2x4s and diatribes (my own included) do NOT resonate until the receiver is ready.
So, take a breath, give yourself a break. This is tough stuff.
I had soooo many thoughts reading your thread, I should've taken notes. I'm going to formulate some thoughts specific to your sitch and come back in a few. I'm looking at this as paying it forward for all of the help I've gotten here...I want to give you my full attention since you asked for it.
Also, check out Smileysperson and Thinkers threads.
Gucci and robx nail a lot of issues regarding being a "man" and retrieving your nuts. Many are offended by their directness, bullying, assertiveness and directives to date but in my experience, I've gotten a LOT out of it if I look at the essence of what they are saying. So in every sitch, don't turn away thinking "that's not me or my sitch"...look a little deeper.
I relate very much to your W (scary as that is to admit) and even though my H left me, we were in that limbo for a loooong time. Wish he had been on here.
I really related to what you expressed about your own experience of divorce. This made me suicidal, not kidding.
My step-dad said something that really helped with this...how blessed my children are to have someone who can empathize and really be here for them. I cannot control their dad's behavior but I can be their rock. I can relate to them and help them in a way someone else could not.
It is little consolation but it helps and I remember it often.
I have been through the "conversation" and I survived (barely). H moved out and we're still breathing. The kids are hurting and confused and I'm still here mothering and handling it.
Coach says you can "handle it"...he said it to me and I answered in my mind "no I can't dammit, you don't understand." Guess what? I CAN handle it and I am!
There is no holy grail. There is no lifeline sometimes to help you make what feel like million dollar decisions (how to respond to x, what do I do about y)...eventually, when you are detached, you know what to do and if you "screw up" you don't sweat it because, hey, per Thinker, what is the worst she can do? Divorce you????
Do you see the freedom there? Tell me because I will back up and break it down if you don't.
I want to add that lucky me, I am also on the receiving end of the script now (well have been, I don't engage anymore) so I can relate to both you and your W...
At one point she said she was filing this week. I cried. I said I don't want S7 to have to go through this since we have never tried to work on this together. All we have done is "take space" and drift further apart. She kept going on about her "path" and eventually threw herself on "her" bed and cried, fine I'll stay here unhappy forever. I'll die unhappy. I tried to tell her that we don't have to be unhappy. None of us do. Please work with me to save our family and find happiness for all of us. She just yelled "I'm not leaving...I'll stay here unhappy forever!"
Sorry I'm all over the place here but picking what stands out for me.
I was you, saying this stuff. Trust me, if she stays out of guilt, she will be miserable and she will drink or leave or you will. She must find YOU attractive and want to be married to you. This took me soooo long to get. I wanted to hook H back in with logic and duty and guilt but that is a bit of projecting too. I mean what keeps you from giving up? Your undying love for W or fear? So, when she hears those words, she is hearing a concession that there is not much left for you two other than obligation, duty and fear...thus being miserable forever.
Make sense? You both need to want to be with each other and your ambivalence can serve you if you let it and give up on controlling the outcome for the kids (that is the hardest part for me). But, let's get real. You don't like her right now, she is not the last woman on the planet and she is not as committed as you would like her to be. I am not saying give up, I am saying get honest with yourself.
However, your wife is still there!!!! She sees what you see regarding the optimal being staying together. That is huge. She doesn't know how to get there.
Many people here talk about Retrouvaille and you can google it. I don't know you're W (obviously), but it sure sounds like you might be able to get her there and get those necessary tools.
Another thing...the more upbeat I am, the more it seems to pi$$ her off.
I want to be upbeat and fun to be around, but I think that she has so much resentment toward me still that she wants me to be "paying for it" not having a good time.
Anyone have any suggestions here?
Okay, I was her in this sitch. It p*ssed me off because we had huge issues that were not being dealt with...major financial issues, our sex life sucked, our M was in jeopardy. His glibness and jovial behavior was offensive to me and exhibited a lack of concern.
Perhaps if I felt that H was leading and handling the major issues, I could have appreciated his humor and playfulness.
So, are there areas where you are NOT taking care of business?
I don't know if this is DB or not but I would have just about dropped dead (or dropped my drawers) if H had presented a solution...for example, "This is Retrovaille, it is happening the weekend of X, I got the kids covered and I want you to come with me. Living like this is unacceptable to me and I see how unhappy it makes you and we need to do something about it now."
Wow, would I have dug that...
As it was, H would complain and drop little bombs about being miserable and he would try to get me to come out with him and he brought up seeing an old marriage counselor (one who I knew if we saw we would separate)...but he was always complaining or threatening and never took the lead to exhibit that he was invested in doing something constructive, something specific.
WOW. Thank you so much AAK for all of the time and effort that you put into your feedback here. There it will take me a while to ge through it all and get everything that I can from it.
First reaction though- You're right. There is a time when I will say eat sh*t or get off the pot. I fight that nearly every day. I look at my S7 and can't imagine putting him through it though.
Your point of view makes sense. I can't seem to get hers at this point though. I have to wonder if there is some MLC effect with the WAW stuff. Our finances have not been a problem, I have come to her with suggestions to get us on track, I have given her freedom etc. She even said that she has seen and appreciated the changes, but it's just not "meant to be," because she still doesn't "feel like she should." She just keeps going back to her "path to happiness" or her "true identity." It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. Tie this in with late nights out, spending $$ like it's going out of style, dressing flashy, partying, and using highschool kid slang (looks and sounds ridiculous...but I'm judgemental). She's not even asking for any changes any more. She hasn't for months.
I pushed 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 weeks ago. She was completely checked out. She's angry now. During the arguments she acknowledged having a lot of anger and resentment at me still. She talked about how she had tried so hard to be everything that I wanted her to be and didn't feel that it was enough for me. She didn't feel like an equal. She felt criticized and judged. I mentioned a story that I read where a woman said "I tried for years and you didn't try with me, why should I try now? Just because you want to?" She said "Bingo!"
Now that makes sense. At least more than all of the "if it were meant to be" bologna.
From what I understand angry is better than ambivalent.
Me: 35 W: 31 S:9 M: 10 years Together 13 MySitch - Ups & Downs She moved out the day before Thanksgiving 2009, over 13 months post-bomb.
More her upstairs when I was down. Me outside when she was inside. More locked in the extra...I mean "her"...bedroom. Once again, she left at night time. This time she didn't say where she was going. I suspect that it was to get back at me for me going "out" last Friday. I didn't tell her where I was going then either. She asked and I told her about Friday though. I didn't ask her last night. I'm just letting it go.
I'm really starting to suspect OM. I've done some snooping and haven't seen much to indicate such though. Found one thing that indicates a flirty facebook exchange from a few months ago (on our 10 year anniversary noless), but I have accounted for nearly every evening that she has been out since then (sans the recent late night "walks").
Me: 35 W: 31 S:9 M: 10 years Together 13 MySitch - Ups & Downs She moved out the day before Thanksgiving 2009, over 13 months post-bomb.
