Why do you think that you can act toward me, a virtual stranger, in an empathetic manner, but you have a difficult time giving the same type of empathetic treatment to the one you claim to love above all others?
It is not a trick question. You would do me a great honor in thinking about it, and replying in a thoughtful manner.
Take the weekend to mull it over.
Write me on Monday (sooner if you wish) with your answer.
Heading to the end of the weekend. Spent Saturday by myself, just reading, and lounging. Today, the plan was to go to my older daughter's soccer game at 8:30am, then go pick up the wife and younger daughter for a kid's party. After that, during the daughter's nap, we would go to a movie while wife's mom stayed home. I was looking forward to being with my wife today so much. Well, I got to the house, went upstairs and looked in her eyes, and could tell something was wrong. "Where I have you been? Have you been getting my pages? I paged you twice!" She was very agitated. ACtually, I didn't have my pager on, and don't usually have it on, but I did have my email pager (also called a Blackberry) strapped to my waist all weekend, where she could have reached me easily. She was clearly upset that she could not reach me, and that our daughter was about to drive her thru the roof, because...are you ready?...she doesn't get any time for herself. Well...boo hoo!
How am I supposed to know that she is having a tough time? Why can't she tell me she needs help without laying into me and making the not-so-subtle point that I've let her down and that she is upset because I am not wearing my pager! I simply turned away, got our daughter, and left for the party. After the party, we went back to the house, and I told my wife that we'd go to my mom's house and hang out so wife could have more time. I also told her that I was really looking forward to spending the day with her, but that there is no way I could do it after the way she treated me earlier. She understood, so I left, and what also left was a little more willingness to make it work with this woman. She can't communicate with me. Instead, she attacks me, or blames me, or makes me the easy focus of her frustrations. And I'm sick....of....it!
Corri's piece about detachment is very similar to my life. I am not a person who cries; I consider it, at least in a man, as an ultimate form of weakness, much to my wife's dismay. Also, I do not trust people enough to form truly intimate or personal realtionships with them as lovers or friends. People = pain, or ill feeling, so best to stay away from them in any meaningful way. But I can be empathetic, and especially for the past 5 years or so, am working to be more so because it makes me feel good, and I realize that poeple I encounter in this way do not hust me in return. But I don't see the connection Corri makes with my wife. I feel that I am this was with her as much as anyone else. Taking my daughter out all day so that my wife can rest seems like a thoughtful thing I can do, so I'm doing it, and doing it as a loving gesture, not as punishment.
Well, this is enough out of me for tonight. I'll check back Monday some time, if possible. But as each day goes on, it's looking kinda bleak. I think what my wife did today was destructive to moving this marriage in a positive direction. It was my idea for us to hang together today and spend time together, and she was all for it. Then, when it comes time to actually follow through, she tears it down, over a pager!
Can I be a b!tchy, underhanded female for a moment? I know you were looking forward to spending time with your wife on Sunday, and I know it hurt you how she launched into you, (here's the b!tchy part), but maybe if she had worked a little harder at appreciating you while YOU WERE STILL IN THE HOUSE she wouldn't be missing out on her precious 'time to herself' moments, hm?!!
She was trying to PAGE YOU!?! because she had reached the end of HER ROPE?! That is GAWDDAM delicious Did you tell her you've been trying to page her for the last 10 years, she hasn't been picking up either, so you know exactly how she feels?
Sorry. That is very b!tchy of me to revel in her misery. (Bad Corri, bad Corri!!) May we have a minute of silence to purge ourselves of gloating, as this is NOT our goal?
<<<<<<<<< SILENCE. Small giggle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay. I'm over it now.
All righty, then, one agrument does NOT a divorce make. We have two adults who are both masters at emotional detachment. Though your wife may never have experienced detachment as a kid, she has learned to detach from you, to a degree, because of her mistrust of you.
You both go a long way in taking one another for granted as well. She assumes you'll know when she's having a tough time, and you assume that if she is having a tough time, she can be rational about it. That's a recipe for a fight if I ever heard one.
But do not assume that because she 'attacks' you, it's all about you. It is FAR EASIER to blame you than it is to own her own behaviors... she is feeling frustrated, so she takes it out on you. Is this fair? Of course not. But you don't have to personalize it either. Her frustration is good, actually, because that means there is something going on there she can no longer ignore (see first paragraph above).
DON'T TOUCH THE TAR BABY. Which means, when she gets all huffy and pulls an attitude with you, REMAIN CALM. You do NOT have to defend yourself, nor do you owe her any explainations whatsoever. Just calmly tell her that in the future, if she can't get you by your pager, she might want to try your email pager, your cell phone, or the following phone number(s). That's it. Nothing more.
If you engage in her misery by defending yourself, this is what I mean by touching the TAR BABY. Have you ever had tar on your hands? Well, the sh!t doesn't come off. And the harder you try to get it off, the more it gets all over you.
So. DON'T TOUCH THE TAR BABY. You can be empathetic with her (gee, honey, I imagine that was very frustrating for you not to be able to reach me). You acknowledge her feelings, but you in no way defend yourself, because you don't have to. Affirm everything she says.
Her: "I HAVE NO TIME TO MYSELF!!"
You: "No, you probably don't. So, me and (daughter) are leaving for the day. Have a nice time to yourself."
And when you get back, smile, be nice, be happy, big hugs to daughter, and sail out the door.
So how will this get you closer to your wife? Great question!!
You tell me.
And, what are you going to do about your detachment issue?
I understand how frustrating it is to be made to feel like the "bad guy" but it was an honest oversight on your part. Apologize, reassure and try to KEEP YOUR COOL!!
It is the biggest challenge that I have not to go ballistic with my H because he is just so OBLIVIOUS of how I feel and why. He is in such denial of our situation, don't know if he will ever face what our challenges are....
Back to you. She was freaking because she has not come to terms with the fact that the affair has been over for a long time. Since she could not contact you immediately, she freaked out thinking that an affair was happening again because you moved out of the house. You made a committment to HER, not to the person that you had the affair with. Remind her of your committment to her.
Explain to her again that you love her but need to have forgivness to move forward with your lives together. Part of that forgivness is to try to meet you even partway with the intimacy issue. I know the pain and rejection of craving your spouse's touch and nothing for months at a time. They just don't realize how cruel that is to us. I wish they could understand that touch and intimacy are so important to a healthy relationship. We all need touch, great program about touch last night on TV. Forget which channel. Anyway.....
She still has not found forgiveness about the affair to help her heal. You screwed up, it's over, has been for a long time. It's almost as if she wants to continue to remind herself that there was a time that things were really bad between the two of you and she wants to continue that pain to be the martyr. Don't fall for that trap.
Several other observations. Regarding the timing of becoming pregnant. C9, it still takes two to tango, so please do not lay all of the responsibility of becoming pregnant with your W. I will have no idea why this happenned at the time that it did. If there were any doubts in either of your minds about creating a child, especially with the affair being over just shortly before the pregnancy and the stress of building a new house, those doubts should have been voiced. But you have a daughter that you cherish and need to care for.
Another thing that I noticed. Your reluctance to show emotions, especially tears. Tears can be the most cathartic emotion depending on the situation and I for one do not and never have thought that real men don't cry. That is bull pucky carried over from our growing up (we are about the same age) Our parents weren't always right, were they?
I know how frustrating this is, especially trying to keep your cool, but you cannot afford to lose it. She may yank your chain, but just don't let her FLUSH!
Cloudy, This has nothing to do with your fight on Sunday, but I wanted to throw it out anyway.
Btw, I think Corri gave you some great hysterical-woman-handling tips in her post. Stay calm and do not engage in her behavior whatsoever. THAT will take the wind out of her sails faster than anything.
What I was thinking about was her statement of not wanting to work on the marriage because she has no trust. What about saying to her, in a calm and loving way: "Yes that is what I am struggling with too. I need to trust that you will keep your word and work towards a loving and sexual marriage. We BOTH have trust issues and I think we should work towards them together."
What I see as an outsider is that you hit this brick wall when she brings up the trust issue. Which, to engage in a little cattiness myself here Corri LOL, is exactly what she WANTS to happen. She wants to effectively end the conversation (the one in which you are pressing her to decide what changes she is willing to bring to the table) by stating that she can't trust you. That brings up guilt and the frustration in you and puts all the attention and focus on Cloudy and how he screwed up. Now, you DID screw up, I don't think anyone--least of all yourself--would deny that. But where does that leave you?
In the same place that you were before the infidelity incident.
One thing that I wonder if LD people realize is how much trust is completely destroyed when your lover ceases to be your lover. You do not trust that person any longer. How can you, when they are rejecting you? Rejection does a number on a person. So she doesn't trust you to remain faithful. You don't trust her to be a lover and not a roommate. The real question is: Where is she willing to go from here?
I just wanted to point that out to you...that she is not the only one with trust issues and it should be pointed out to her, so that the dialogue can continue rather than stalemate, at that statement from her.
Thank you for all the great posts to wake up to this morning. I am heading off to the office, but wanted to touch on a couple things:
Honeypot's suggestion has already been followed. When she brought up, I think a couple weeks ago, the trust issue, I told her that I ALSO don't trust HER....to be willing to be intimate with me. Talk is cheap, and I've experienced years of it. I want action, and have seen little of it. There's a saying that some women learn, and some don't: Don't let your man leave the house loaded (meaning "down there"). She's been perfectly willing to let me fend for myself on the sex issue, but then bitches about the results. She knows that I DO NOT trust her to do as she says in this area.
On Corri's point about not letting myself take the bait and pick up the tar baby, I am already acting in this way, as much as I can. Last night, I drove my daughter back to the house and dropped her off with a kind word, and left. She expects me, by our history, to get defensive to her attacks, like the one about the pager. But this separation space is giving me an easier opportunity to not engage in that. When she bitched about the pager, I told her that I understood, adn was sorry. The only thing remotely defensive was asking her why she didn't try my email pager, which she knows I carry all the time? (I think I know the answer, but I won't be presumptuous here.) She didn't have an answer. It's nice, for once, to be able to be kind, not get defensive, and just leave her alone so she's stuck with herself and can't focus on me.
I'll be back later for an update. Gotta head to work, although I could sure use a good cry right now. (just kidding)
Us broads gots some shoulders to cry on now!! Or was that we women have broad shoulders?
(I like the first one the best) I don't mind being called a broad and in some contexts, in my humble opinion, being called a broad is quite a compliment.
Honestly though, if you feel like you need to, cry away. Might make you feel a bit better getting those frustrations out of your system.
I understand that 'not crying' sentiment, I really do. I understand the people=pain, thing too.
However, people=pain is not an absolute formula. People also = love, joy and happiness. If you cannot open yourself to pain, you cannot experience all that life has to offer in terms of happiness, either. That's not a judgement of you, that's just what I have found in my own experience.
It could be that you try to be close to your wife in the only way you know how (through physical intimacy), but on every other level you are emotionally unavailable to her (in order to protect yourself). She could very well be feeling as if she is a piece of meat and so does not 'give' to you physically. And since she does not give, you withdraw even further.
My H and I got into a discussion this weekend (one of those fights where you don't raise your voice, but everything that comes out is lethal, you know?) He said something that made me cry. Me!! I CRIED!! I was so stunned that I was crying, and that I couldn't make it stop, I forgot to argue!! It took me 10 minutes to get myself under control...
I can tell you I'm still stunned by it. I understand your difficulty in making deep friendships because of pain. I would venture to guess that were you to go out and have sex with someone tomorrow, it would feel great physcially, but within a few short hours of being away from whomever, you'd start feeling very lonely, depressed, and somehow disconnected. I don't know if you've felt this, but I know I have in my own experience (before H). Has it been similar for you?
I still don't know how I feel about this crying thing. I'm still mulling it over. I know just a few short months ago, given the same argument and the same hurtful things he said, I would have withdrawn so far from him he'd be lucky to see the white side of my ass for a month. I would have gone into a depressed funk, and children in the streets would have run from me just because of the look on my face.
This time, I actually cried, and I feel this very weird resistance to brooding, replaying it in my head, and sending zingers his way. I don't WANT to be in that funk... I'm still smiling, and I still catch myself wanting to be pleasant to him... it's like I have to remind myself that I'm mad at him... which I don't really want to be.
I want to let it go and keep on having a happy relationship with him. But there's that little part of me that wants to strike back at him for hurting me enough to make me cry. But I have found that striking back at him to hurt him, also hurts me. And the last thing I want to do is hurt myself.
This is the biggest friggin' pisser I've ever encountered. I find myself on unfamiliar territory. I guess I've made more progress than I had previously given myself credit for.
So what does all this have to do with you, you ask? Hell if I know. Would you ever want to get to the point I've described above?
Pardon the intrusion ya'll. I need to ask something of Corri. My computer crashed last week and I lost everything....all email addresses, all documents, everything. Can you write me an email Corri so that I will have your email address? Thanks Cathy
Cloudnine, I hope all is well or as well as can be expected with you. I don't have time to read tonight and catch up. Got to get this new system up and running and try and replace somethings that were lost. Please take care and I do hope you are not still living out of your office. Cathy
I'm not living out of my car lately, but still staying late at the office. Fortunately, I hired two people to assist me with projects here at work, so my load should lighten.
T'was an interesting day with the wife. Remember that we work together, and remember the pager thing from yesterday. Well, when I saw her this morning at work, we talked about getting in a schedule with the younger daughter, so the wife can get a break and focus on what she wants to do with our relationship. We worked out a schedule, which will start next week. She then said that she wished that I would have just come forward and volunteered to take the little one, rather than having to deteriorate to the point where she felt she had to *lose it* the way she did yesterday. That's me....selfish bastard! I walked away before I got bitchy with her.
Later, I went back to her office, and told her that I was sorry she felt so burnt out, and that I she should always feel open to making any reasonable request of me and my time, so that she can get some space for herself. She said that she appreciated it. Then, this happened:
She came at me with a *concern* that had been on her mind. A month or so back, I bought a table and two chairs that I could use to set up at the beach, or similar romantic place, and spread out a candlelit dinner for us at sundown. We never got that far, because I left, but she knew what I bought it for because I told her later. Thinking I might need it for my office or future apt., I put it in my SUV. Today, she looked at me and essentially said that she wonders if I have it in my truck so that I could use it for a romantic dinner with someone else. But it wasn't WHAT she said, but HOW she said it: it was with the most biting, almost mean, tone of voice that was meant to sting, and I told her so, after I told her that there was nothing to worry about and that I would return the furniture to her house if it would ease her mind. I can still feel her tone of voice now...mean, accusatory, laser focused....like she had busted me at something very bad. After I said what I sadi, I left her office and went about my day. Another nail in the coffin.
It's 10:30 here, and time to leave work. Been a long, emotional day, and hard to focus on WHY I feel so down. It's that connection to my feelings that I think Corri is angling at. It's easier, much easier, for me to make a physical connection with a woman than non-physical. I goof about crying, but I sometimes wish that I could.
Did you tell her you've been trying to page her for the last 10 years, she hasn't been picking up either, so you know exactly how she feels?