Hey, if I came off sounding judgemental earlier, I apologize. I'm not where you are at... at least now, anyway. I was once in your shoes, and even as an LD person at my darkest hour, I remember CRAVING the attention of someone who seemed to think I was a really neat person. So I promise to think a little more before I whip of a return post. Although, like Johanna said, I think if you cave right now, tempting though it may be, you are going to destroy any chance you have at fixing your marriage.
Why was I so cold to my H. Let me think about this one, write out some thoughts, and then condense so I don't write a book here trying to explain. I'll get back to you later today about this one.
And, I think your wife probably cares very much where you stay... but she's first and foremost angry and hurt that you left, so I'm sure that is precluding her 'excitment' over your new pad, you know? I'm sure she'd just rather you come home... talking about your own place is probably pretty scary for her... and since it's scary, she'll avoid it.
Why was I so physically cold to my Husband. I'm so very, very tempted to give you the story of my life, 'cuz then I have no doubt you'd understand it very well. For brevity sake, I'll try to encapsulate.
Because my parents divorced at a very early age, because of the weekend visitations and all the back and forth between Mom and Dad's, because of our many moves, step-fathers and step-siblings, two other of my mother's divorces before I was 14, sexual abuse, and a plethora of other things I won't get into, I spent the first 18 years of my life in constant emotional upheaval.
Sometimes, when continually exposed to trauma and emotional pain, the body takes over and creates a defense mechanism called detachment. As we grow-up, learning a certain amount of emotional detachment is healthy. It allows us to interact in a more mature manner with our world. It's necessary, or we'd all probably spend 90% of our time in some form of histrionics.
But sometimes, as in my case, detachment protected me from the continual upheaval in my life. The only way I could move sanely through my world was to learn not to respond to it. The problem though is that once the defense mechanism is in place, it's still there even after the trouble and trauma are gone. (And, by the way, one doesn't even know they HAVE such a defense mechanism. For me, it was a way of life, and I didn't know any different.)
You don't have to be a kid to learn this. When there are things in our world that cut us deeply over and over and over again, you learn to either avoid what is hurting you, or if you can't do that, you learn to emotionally detach from it.
A defense mechanism helps us to emotionally survive a crisis, but it goes a long way in helping us ignore a problem. Ignored problems will manifest themselves in our lives over and over again until we learn to face them and deal with them. But in order to face a problem, one must be aware of the defense mechanism that is doing all it can to protect us.
Another interesting aspect of detachment is that you don't learn how to 'selectively' detach. You detach from everything. So not only do you protect yourself from pain, you don't really experience happiness or true intimacy either. And if at any time someone or something tries to wiggle its way in past our defenses... well. That's when the fun begins.
Buried emotions will find their way out. When my husband would constantly criticize me, I would ignore it until I had all I could take, and then I would explode. If I decided to have sex with him just to get him to shut the hell up and get off my back, I would sometimes experience black rages. Black rages are so intense and so damn scary I can’t even describe it to you. Rather than give into the rage, I would just shut down completely. It’s almost like a zombie state. Hm. Anyway.
Some people experience the buried emotions as anxiety attacks. Some people get headaches. Some people get stomach cramps. Some people get extremely tired. Some people, like me, will experience severe mood swings, or explosive anger.
I had a very low prognosis of recovering from my detachment. Since I learned it at such an early age, it was as if it were engrained in the fabric of my character. As my shrink said to me, “it is counter-intuitive for you to be intimate because all that intimacy has ever brought you is pain and suffering.”
I had to unlearn an 18 year-old involuntary impulse I didn’t even know how to recognize. I had to learn not to personalize my husband’s constant criticism, and learn that the anger and anxiety I was experiencing right before sex was my defense mechanism kicking in, not my true feelings for my husband. That is an extraordinarily difficult impulse not to give in to. It would be like me telling you that you should only touch the stove when it is hot, or to breathe deeply while under water. I bet you can’t even fathom that, can you?
I think that there are many LD spouses who have shut down to sex because all that it gets them is additional pain and suffering in the form of criticism, nagging, and anger. The HD spouses are frustrated, and rightly so, but their frustration is coming out in the form of lectures, criticism, nagging and anger, which cuts a LD as deeply as the absence of sex and intimacy cuts an HD.
Nice posts from both of you. I will have to respond to this last one from Corri tomorrow, since I want to read it again when I'm fresh tomorrow. It's 10:30pm here.
the wife and I met today and talked about the living situation. She started by mentioning my coming back, but we both know that's not a good idea, so I will be looking at apartments this weekend. The conversation was good, and we also agreed that I need to find a regular schedule with our 3 year old daughter. The 15 year old is dealt with, but the younger one stays with the wife, and my avoiding my wife means that I avoid the daughter, and I know that's not right, so I have to figure out a schedule to spend time with her.
We're still at that place: she needs to know she can trust me, and I need to know she's serious about having a sex life with me, and I don't think she's ever been serious, trust or no trust. I sent her a joke CNN article today about how researchers have found a link between fellatio and reduction in breast cancer, and she just gave a look of disgust. ANYTHING about sex just seems objectionable to her. She can't even LAUGH about it!
Oh well, goodnight. Wish I had a nice warm body to lay next to. I want a responsive partner so badly.
You have mentioned repeatedly that your W has trust issues with you. Could you clarify some since I cannot seem to find info re the trust issues in your other posts. I take it that the therapy included these issues, not just the lack of desire and intimacy issues, but I am assuming.
She mentioned that she wants you back home but did she explain why? Need to get that clarified before you even think about it.
I have been very clear with my H that I will not move back until things change drastically on his part. No movement on that issue for us. **Sigh**
Maintain as much contact with the kids as you can, sounds like you try to. They really need to see you try to maintain your relationship with them even if it is hard being around the W from time to time. Don't let what is going on between the two of you mess up the kids. They need you and you need them especially now. Let them know how much you love them.
You sound much more focused last night and that was good to see. Keep your chin up and take care of yourself.
Hope you're doing okay today. I feel drained, and am not staying at work late tonight, instead hanging with my older daughter. Tomorrow night is Halloween with the younger daughter.
About 5 to 6 years ago, I cheated on my wife. She found out about it, and we had several very tough months that followed. We finally decided to put our all into the marriage, let the past go, and move forward. Within 3 months, we had started building our new home in L.A. (which was on the drawing board when I cheated), and she got pregnant with our second daughter.
I proceeded to be Mr. Good Husband and Father, and several years went by. AFter the baby, I could understand her desire lowering for a short period, but it never came back. If I'd raise the issue, I was told that she still didn't feel comfortable enough with me, or that she still didn't trust me enough to give herself to me in that way. There were other permutations of the rejection, but this is the one that really bugged me. I had finally had it a year ago, when she came to me with a suspicious attitude one night when I got home late. More recently, she caught me deleting sites from my internet history, and confronted me about it. I told her, truthfully, that there are sites that I don't care she sees, such as this one. I didn't feel that there was anything wrong with it, but she still cites it as a reason she can't trust me, and if she can't trust me, then we have no relationship.
Now, let me ask you: If your husband cheated on you, AND YOU DIDN'T TRUST HIM, would you turn around and have a child with him so soon? I had the belief that everything was back to normal after our child, but then when I wanted sex, suddenly I was untrustworthy. In hindsight, it was very unfair of her, I think. If it wasn't that, it was because my mom was coming over too much, or my older daughter was getting away with stuff she shouldn't, or my tone of voice was too abrupt; it was always something that she cited to reject me, and it was always my fault. Hence, why I see her as moving the boundaries on me. I don't think she has a sex drive, period, and have told her so. She's a boring lay, and I feel like I'm taking advantage of her when we have sex.
I know it's not me, because I've learned that my sexual energy and confidence is fine, thank you very much. This is her problem to deal with, once and for all. Is it really her trust in me, or is it something much deeper that has no relation to me? I think it's the latter, and she finds things about me that she can use to tie her fears to, fears about something or someone else who preceded me. If that is the case, I will never win with her. I will always do or say something that will allow her to reject me. It's really sick, when you think about it.
As for her request to have me come home, it is because she misses the family life, misses having me around. But I know we'll just get back to our place of comfort and I'll be counting the days and months until we blow up again. She does not find me attractive, and does not love me, and cannot admit it.
For whatever it's worth, I think your wife does love you, and I really think she'd like to have a wonderful marriage with you. Right now, her fears and misunderstandings are getting in the way of her 'changing' herself.
That's one of the reasons I tried to explain detachment to you (which you didn't comment on... I'm so bummed. I tried to keep it short and everything. ) Whatever is blocking her understanding is going to take some time for her to work through. You may or may not be able to wait it out, you know?
You made a mistake. You can't go back and undo it, but the experience for you has made a significant impact on you and your understanding of who and what you want to be... or don't want to be. She cannot make you carry that cross forever, and I only hope that she can find it in herself to come to that understanding before it destroys your marriage.
You're a good guy. She's a good woman. If you can help her through this process of new understanding, great, do it. If you can't, you can't.
But just remember, it ain't over until it's over. Try to find your patience and hope.
I'm so sorry. I will go back and re-read your posts to find your comment on detachment, and respond. I feel so much better today. I stayed at a friend's house last night, and slept 11 hours. I was so exhausted, I had no idea. At the office now, but will touch base later. But one question first: why do YOU think she loves me? I believe she loves me as a father to her child, but not as a husband. Is it love, or is it co-dependency? I wonder.
Quote: But one question first: why do YOU think she loves me?
Welp, it doesn't really matter what I think, believe it or not (stuns the hell outta me, too ), but since you asked, I will give you an answer.
Okay. Let's just look at your most recent post. When I mentioned to you that I was bummed you didn't comment on my 'detachment' post, you responded in this manner:
Quote: I'm so sorry. I will go back and re-read your posts to find your comment on detachment, and respond.
You don't owe me a damn thing in this world, Cloud. Hell, we don't even KNOW each other beyond some honest interaction on this board. Yet you apologized to me for something you were able to recognize was important TO ME. You think, hm, well she took the time to write something, yeah, I can find it in me to find the time to read it and respond, whether I AGREE WITH HER OR NOT.
You offered here to me empathy, compassion, and a willingness to at least HEAR ME. You were sensitive to my feelings and the effort I put towards trying to communicate with you. Your RESPECTED my effort. You reacted to me in a LOVING manner, though I would never, ever say you are in LOVE with me.
This is why your wife loves you. This is why you love her. At some point in your lives, the two of you were able to offer this exact thing to one another.
But by allowing yourself to become vulnerable enough to accept someone's love, you also make yourself vulnerable to the very same person to hurt you.
Now were you to respond to me that you didn't have time to read my post, and from what little you did read, you thought I was full of sh!t anyway, I'd have to say that we've interacted enough that that type of response from you would hurt me. And knowing me, I'd only give you a few shots below my belt before I told you to take a flying leap, you know?
There are only a very few people on this earth who can do things to us that will cause lasting damage (beyond use of force), and those people are typically the ones we love the most.
I don't believe we do it intentionally to one another. I think if we had any idea how our words or behaviors were hurting our spouses, we'd stop ourselves immediately. The disconnect comes when we do not try to see or feel things from our spouses point of view BEFORE we see or feel things ourselves.
Our own thoughts and feelings can sometimes be our own worst enemy.
If I can get you to understand anything, Cloud, it would be empathy for your wife. Tonight, stand with your hand above a stove element that is turned on high. When the element is as red as it's going to get, move a hand toward it. Try, as hard as you are able, to convince yourself to place your hand on that hot element.
Even now I can hear you say, 'what, are you f*cking nuts?!' Just do it. I'm not asking you to burn yourself. What I am asking you to do is be aware of the conflict that will occur inside of you as you try to convince yourself to put your hand on that element. The closer your hand gets to that element, the greater your stress will become.
This confusion, this stress, this complete COUNTER INTUITIVE feeling you experience at that moment is the closest you will ever come to understanding what your wife is feeling in learning to trust you again.
If you can create for yourself a scenario in which you can truly understand her struggle, you will again find empathy for her. It will bring about for you new understanding. It won't change your needs or your feelings, it will simply change your perception enough to reach out to her in the same manner in which you were able to reach out to me today.
And sometimes, that's all it takes. Changing our perception or experience of the world enough to once again find our empathy.
You ain't so bad in the advice giving arena yourself, woman!! But as I always say, it is far easier to see the missteps of others, than it is to see our own.
) Whatever is blocking her understanding is going to take some time for her to work through. You may or may not be able to wait it out, you know?