Just want my H back

[gucci loafer]

From what I hear you say, it sounds like there is no hope left for this.

I don't know where you picked up on that????? Not true.

I was directing my answer to your response to my "agreeing philosophy." You asked if sometime it backfired. Any advice can backfire. There are no gurantees. My experience of watching and observing what happens when there is a reconciliation has shown me that "not agreeing" doesn't work.
I have seen that it makes the WS dig in their heels deeper. The more you tell them you don't want the divorce, the more determined they are to keep telling you they do want it. Their natural reaction is to fight against the pressure. Many of the WS's still don't move forward on the divorce either way you go.
With that in mind, my advice is to agree with them and then do nothing. It gives them nothing to fight against.

But in terms of the whole 'agreeing philosophy' it's gotta sometimes backfire, right?, like if I acquiese 'ok, i can't stop you..' etc and don't try to use Retro or any other method as a way to delay/see if there's a chance to turn around...it might just make it easier for him and he goes ahead and does it. Then what? I agree and sign and the marriage ends?

Your hope is in letting go, taking off pressure, being a happy person, etc. etc. etc.... That is your best hope and gives you more chance to reconcile.

I was single and dating women at one time. I was dating more than one.(big surprise huh?) My wife came along in that process of me dating others.

Do you want to know why she stood out from the other women?

First, is that I have to be attracted physically to a woman.
I was attracted to her. ( hopefully you already have that with your WS)


However. I was dating more than one attractive woman, so that wasn't what pulled me to ask her to be exclusive and then later to marry.

I became MORE attracted to her because of the way she seemed to handle me. NEVER any pressure.
She was always happy. She was fun. She bantered. She was funny.

She was dating some others too. I was always happy. I was fun. I bantered. I was funny. I loved to hear her laugh. She would laugh at my silly jokes.

I remember thinking after one of our dates.."My god, I laugh more and harder with her than I do with my BUDDIES"... Interesting.... It made me WANT to be with her more. It was just a natural process. Happy people attract happy people and want to RUN from unhappy people... Get it?


I did most of the calling and initiating dates. ( even though she was dying for me to call when I would let a few days go by) She was a challenge because she had other men interested in her and I KNEW it. I knew she was a great catch.

Get it? You are making this more difficult than it is.
Quit worrying about "what if" and start living HAPPILY in the now. Be like my wife was to me. It IS very appealing to a man that "wants to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it"

If he wants to date other.. No biggie. So do you.
If he is a great catch to other women.. No biggie.
So are you to other men...

He's just having fun..
So are you.. Just having fun...

Good relationships really ARE NOT work.

Ask me or ask my wife. We in no way consider our relationship work... YUK..

FUN.. We make it fun.... laugh.... enjoy our time together.....

[Stronger]

I was just wondering about the name change. It’s really neither here nor there for me. That’s a you choice.

Family….you have to be very very careful about being critical of family. Yes, that’s a big deal if it makes you uncomfortable. There are plenty of things about my in laws I find odd, but over all they are great people. Never once have I been critical of H’s family….advice I received from my mother and it was very simple. After H asked me to marry him my mother told me “There will NEVER be a good time to criticize this family. You keep your mouth shut. If there ever comes a time there are children and something happens, say nothing. If it’s really big and you have to say something figure out a way to do it without his family knowing.” Meaning, if they said something in front of S I didn’t like, do nothing at the moment, but later alone with S, tell him “Don’t use that word, it’s only for grown ups” and still not one critical word for the family. I know it’s been great advice for me.

Whatever he’s going through, whatever changes you’ve noticed, you can do NOTHING about it. The only option you have is to do nothing and see how it plays out.

“it's not all my fault that he did not assert himself as much as he could, though i know i played a part too.”
Make up your mind, is it or is not your fault?

Somehow, someway, you did help create this monster. You have to figure out what you contributed to this and work on it. It was difficult for me to go through the process and I got a lot more out of it when H finally did open up and told me some things that bugged him about me and my way of handling some things and about our marriage. It was painful to hear and eye opening. It was difficult to understand I did have a part in this. Granted, I did not make him act the way he did during the separation, he chose to do that. But I did have a part in getting us to this unhappy place in our marriage.

Why would you contact him? I’m thinking going dark is the better option for you. Listen to Gucci.

“And how would/could I help let him know this by my actions in weeks ahead?”

What I did was pretty simple to make my H feel manly. It was advice from my DB coach and my therapist, so I put a lot faith in both. I needed a light bulb change. I asked H to do it. There were simple things I asked him to do. Then I asked him to do bigger things for me that were no brainers, like picking things up for the house and he still mowed the lawn, etc. Sometimes, it’s not that complicated. A little damsel in distress goes a long way. Then it got bigger when I need “advice” about work stuff, etc. H loved to help with that.

I’m sorry about your mother but glad H was good enough to call.

The healing process and hanging out…you have to be around him so he can learn to be comfortable with you first, then it turns into wanting to hang out with you because it’s so nice to be around you.

Here’s something to keep in mind….your H may really want a divorce. My H did. For sure, but I was able to DB and I’m still DBing. I’m confident and happy that he really no longer wants a divorce at best or is still confused and waiting to see if my changes are real, at worst or minimum. But bottom line, we are by his words “dating” again. So you have to risk it, you have to hang out with him. Or you could quit now.

Never send him that email from your family member. I can’t think of anything else more pursuing. If you reconcile, show it to him then.

No, my H never filed. How the process works where you are, you would have to investigate it.

Reading the books should make it easier to detach. The book helped me understand my H is driven by not wanting to be ashamed. And right now much of his weirdness is the fact he does feel ashamed and it’s pretty much his fault. And the only thing I can do to help him is not talk about it. Pretty much like the book says.

When you do talk with him, let him make contact first, and if you’re really busy and GALing that should be no problem. Yes, when you do interact with him, it needs to be comfortable. But don’t force it. Meaning, if you weren’t all that funny before, you probably aren’t going to pull it off now. But if you were and you two laughed a lot, then you can do it again.

I personally would not bring up MC with him or Retro. I’d let it lay for a bit and see where your new changes take you first. I think asking him now for MC or Retro is like asking a new vegetarian to eat a burger….basically they would feel like you don’t respect their choice and think it’s stupid. Whether you feel this way or not doesn’t matter….if they think you feel that way, they will resent you.

Here’s something I want you to understand: My H did want a divorce yes, in January and also in April. (April is more iffy, but highly probable.) But when I said I would fight him on it, he was pissed. I did that because A.) I was serious. And B.) He was pushing hard hard hard. And at first, I said “Ok, I understand that’s something you need to explore.” And left it at that. But then he started to really push me and I told him, “I understand you think I was agreeing to the D…I’m not. I’ll fight this.” So telling him I would fight the D was my last resort on that subject. And it worked for me. While it worked for me, that doesn’t mean I will endorse it for everyone. Everyone has to go through that fight on their own, but I tell you so you can have as many options or weapons, if you will. I just wanted to be clear on that.

Also in the book you are reading, it clearly explains the high majority of men leave their marriages with someone already lined up or they have their eye on someone. Believe in that statement. They’ve done their research and it’s very common here. When I first got here, I already knew there was the OW. It was a hard hard blow. But me and many others here are living proof, the OP can be beaten. And sometimes you don’t have to beat them, sometimes they just blow up on their own.

And I have read NOTHING from anyone that says give up. I’ve only seen the support you’ve been asking for. Re-read the posts again. NO ONE SAID GIVE UP. That’s not what we do here. This is the most odd place I’ve ever experienced in my life in that it’s been just like my bra….very supportive and close to my heart. LOL! (I got that from a stupid email.)

When we say back off, that’s not giving up. That’s a tactic you’ve yet to try and really give it your all. You said he only contacts you to beg for money and lately to check in with you and your family. Backing off is a way to protect yourself and keep your head in the game. Let’s say you back off and that makes him chase? Good stuff, right? Let’s say you back off, and he only continues to contact you for crap he needs, like money? Then you would learn to be disappointed him and able to back away even more and eventually let go. While not your first choice, it does help protect you and prepare you. Do you understand?

None of us know for sure what your H is going through. We do know however, what you are.

[tryingtilDorR]

I just wanted to chime in based upon my own experience. W was involved in an EA (at least) pretty heavily and was telling me she was done and that it was 'too late' etc etc. (the Script).

I begged her to go to Retrouvaille and it didn't work. When I read the following from gucci I realized he was talking about me back in January when I twisted her arm to go to Retro:

My experience on this issue is that you are going to try the "pressure" route first. Go ahead. I believe you are going to hear what you don't want to hear. Give it a go. Maybe he will. My take is that he won't. My take is that he thinks his mind is made up.

I also think that we need to exclude "another woman." Not "women", but a specific woman he is interested in. IF he does happen to have one, then you would be wasting your time.

I definitely heard what I didn't want to hear just like Gucci predicts - Retro forced us to communicate and I heard the ugly truth in black and white. She was done. She had no feelings. She had feelings for someone else but didn't go looking for it. She was sorry she was hurting me. etc etc Later I found that she did try to back off of the EA but the intense focus on the R actually drove her closer to OM (her own admission/words).

Others have had success with it however - it just depends where their head is at. Check out Deep's thread for an alternative outlook on going to Retro when WAS is involved with someone else.

[LookingFrAnswers]

Dear H,
I can't add to the expertise you're getting here but I hope you take it to heart. I, too have been in denial about a possible A, and it's painful as hell to think about, but somewhere on this board I read if you just assume it, and go on w your goals etc., it won't be such a kick in the teeth if it comes out later. H has denied it, and I REALLY wanted to believe it, but he is not about to tell me if were so. So please please hang in there, you are not alone. It's so very hard I know - It's like being stuck on a rollercoaster that you can't get off of. In the dark. And you're the only one on it. :-) I know you're emotionally exhausted. This is truly a marathon & we just don't know how long. I don't have any answers but every day I learn something new on here, there's not just one way to do this DB thing. Every sit. is a little different & it's hard to know what may or may not work for you. It's a lot of trial & error (for me anyway!). For me reading as many posts as I can that apply my sit., learning about detachment & talking to a DB coach is. As Stronger (I think) said it didn't help her. The 1st DB coach I talked to was just semi-helpful so I asked for a different person, & the 2nd one was completely awesome. She really ties the concepts to my own sit. in a way I can't seem to do myself right now. And helps me see things through a different perspective. For me, this helps. I recommend giving it a try if you have the $$.

I am wishing good things for you. I hope you do something nice for yourself today. I'll try to take my own advice!

[aliveandkicking]

Gucci, do you have kids?

Just curious.

[hhh]

Hi all,
Yes I understand what everyone is saying about no guarantees in life, and I still want to do all I can (within my control) to influence my marriage positively, to have positive outcome, or increase chances for reconciliation. Sometimes I wonder if what I'm doing is helping me and hurting chances for reconciliation, or vice versa (ie sometimes getting angry feels better, but hurts chances w husband, sometimes I feel like reaching out to mutual friend could help us, but hurts me in my process of 'detaching' and 'letting go'). I agree that GAL can only help both scenarios, so I will try to do more of that.

Question about OW in picture. I understand that this may be a reality. H has told me he has 'hooked up' w other women during our separation, and also gone on dates. He may be seeing someone. How does this change my tactics/strategis in the weeks/months ahead if there is an OW? Should I be doing anything differently?

Pearl/Stronger - how did you do things different w OW in the picture? How did you show that your grass was greener, if you will?

Gucci - I hear you about how your wife was that attracted you to her, and I could say that was same for us in many ways at the time. If anything, my H was the one though that was pursuing me heavily (almost too much, he was always calling, giving gifts, etc)..somehow that seemed to set a dynamic in our relationship later on I know too (I realize I got complacent, and felt he would always be there for me). However, the examples you provide are from your initial courting stages, right? I don't know much about your sitch and how you turned things around after things went south.. do those same tactics still apply after there is a lot of water under the bridge, hurtful things said in past, etc.? With all the baggage accumulated, I don't know if that would apply as much in the present. Perhaps you can tell me a tad more about your sitch so I understand how you 'fixed' things the second time around.

Stronger - I totally hear you about investigating what I have done 'to create this monster' I absolutely realize that I lot of things I said in the past hurt H to the point where he felt shame and inadequacy. I recognize that and have owned up to that to him (in person and in a letter I wrote months ago)...I realize I cannot do this again, and there are many behaviors that are not appropriate. I have been working on them and taking accountability for a lot of things...the issue is he doesn't seem to want - at least not know - to even give me the chance to 'show' him I have changed. In months past - since our separation - I have tried to boost him up w genuine compliments and telling him how much I admire him, how proud I am of him. May just be too late since he felt that I did not respect him enough or whatever in our R. And then the temptation of parties and girls and feeling important in school, easy for him to go that route and leave our M... So I have learned a ton of lessons (and yes I can apply them to a new R but I'd rather see what is possible w current H first). The issue is more that I blame myself so much for the downfall of our M...probably to a fault where it tears me up so much. I need to remind myself that 2 of us contributed to this, otherwise I self-flagellate too much. I need to start thinking better about myself b/c I feel too often like my words or actions drove him away, and that just kills me. I've owned up to A LOT lately...am I going overboard maybe? I don't know. I don't want him to think that I am truly at fault for everything either, as it makes it easier for him to walk away.

It's hard to spend too much time alone..so I'm making an effort to be w friends more. Staying in Boston may be hard too, but I don't want to leave too early...I want to give this my all for a man I truly love.

Here's the thing, too. My H has a tendency to not step up to the plate...in which case it may be that he does not take action to file. But I don't want to be in limbo forever. I guess just one day at a time, right? Let him pursue, me - GAL, and then start w a friendship and see positive stuff in me. I hear what everyone is saying about Retro. I see it as a bit of a last resort. If it comes up again I might just position it as 'so we can communicate effectively as we end...and heal' to he knows I am grasping the reality of where he is. But i'll let him initiate.

Thanks for thinking of me and for your help/advice. I am praying for all of you as well.
Kindly,
hhh

[Coach]

Gucci, do you have kids?

Just curious.

I've wondered the same thing.

[Stronger]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this.
The number one reason to GAL….no matter what the outcome may be, if you GAL you won’t be able to look back and say “Wow, I regret all that time I wasted.”. IF you were to divorce that could be a regret, wasted time waiting. If you reconcile, still, wasted time waiting.
Second reason to GAL…..If your H thinks you are still sitting at home, crying and waiting for his call or appearance, that’s a turn off for a good guy…..for a disgusting jerk, it makes him smirk and feel a control over you. Either outcome, not good for you. So got get a life. Do something.
Third reason, it’s just good for your mind, heart and soul. If you are out doing stuff, you can’t be calling him and less chance you are worried or wondering about him. (But I do know and understand completely how H can just POP right into your mind at the most odd unexpected moments.)
The final reason for GALing….this is the hard one to explain….you have the ability to push H’s buttons. He has the ability to push your buttons. When we hear “push buttons” we think about it in a negative way….but it’s really not just negative, it can be, but doesn’t have to be. You can “push positive buttons” too. GALing is one way to do that. If you tell H, “You know what, take your broke a$$ and get out of my face. You suck”….negative pushing. If you say “Hey, thanks for calling me, I’m out with some friends can I call you back? Is everything ok? Great, I’ll call you soon.” That’s a neutral to curious provoking push. If you call him later as you said you would, he answers you FIRST tell him “Hey, I was out with girlfriends, we saw this hysterical movie, you have to see it!” And then you give him the gist, that’s a positive button you pushed. It relaxes him. Or it makes him think “Hey, she can’t have fun without me” and it might just get you more time with him….if you can fit him into your busy schedule! If you are out GALing, you are not at home getting mad being sad. That makes your interactions with him and really everyone better.

When you go out and get a life, he’ll be more prone to want to be a part of yours because the pressure to be your whole world is completely off of him. No one wants that. We want to be cared for and given attention. We don’t want to be given the responsibility to being someone’s happiness. And with the way you’ve pursued him, you have given him the impression, he’s the end all be all.

Does this make sense? I have a really hard time trying to explain this.
And that’s how you are the greener grass.

If there are/is OW(s), no I don’t think you do things differently. The probability of that playing itself out and ending is high. Keep in mind how many immature needy people are out there on the dating scene. Be confident you are the better choice over all of them. You were once…why aren’t you now?

With my H and his ex OW…he told me flat out You are the prize and you are the better woman on every level from appearance to the kind of people you are.

But now, I think my H is having ego issues! LOL! Now he just wants to know he wasn’t a joke, someone to keep her from being completely bored at work….I think he’s taking it very hard and having a wee bit of a nutty about it. Nothing I can do but stay out of his way. He does have a pretty big ego. Tough spot.

In terms of owning what you’ve done in the marriage…I don’t really know that you can “tell” H anything. You might be able to apologize but even then, you aren’t “telling” him anything because he probably does NOT believe you. My H flat out told me, in very clear easy to understand English: “but i still can't trust that all that isn't bs. i still can't trust that it won’t all crumble in a second. so i still am not sure. and it's going to take time to get sure.” That means he wants to wait and watch. He wants to see how I react in certain and all situations. And he wants to see that more than once. He wants to know the changes are truly changes, not temporary band aids to bring him back around and then revert back the “old days”.

Now here’s the tricky part….he may not want to see your changes. I was lucky, I often enough thought and felt deep in my heart thought and felt that my H did want to save us, but not the current us, the very beginning us with some new improvements. There were times I thought “Ok, this is done…wonder when I will get the papers” but then checkered in all of that, I felt differently. I felt hope. It was very motivating.

Another way I was the greener grass as you say….and this is a decision for each person in each different situation….H and I continued to ML. We stopped for about three weeks in January….but otherwise, I made the choice with advice from my DB coach and my therapist to keep him close that way. We’ve always done well there. If the success of a marriage was based on the kind of sex life you have, well then H and I would be the ideal couple destined to be married for a long time with few to 0 issues. But it’s not and here I am. LOL!

Every day is a challenge with new issues possibly. So just keep up the PMA and keep moving forward. Continue to concentrate on the great things in your life and be happy when you do hear from him. Be strong.

[pearlharbr]

Sometimes I wonder if what I'm doing is helping me and hurting chances for reconciliation, or vice versa

I would always choose to help yourself first. After all, you are responsible for your own happiness.

how did you do things different w OW in the picture? How did you show that your grass was greener, if you will?

In my sitch, the first bomb was "I'm not happy because of x,y,z." Ok, so I took immediate action to address those issues. A few weeks later I discovered proof of the OW (who I suspected immediately but BF denied). I didn't really change what I was doing but I knew then that BF was not interested in working on our R because he was already involved in another one. At the same time I discovered DB and was better able to understand (after some time) that I needed to work on me first and foremost. I also eventually realized how much I had changed in the years we'd been together and that I liked the old me better and started being that person again.

Re: Stronger's explanation of GAL, I agree in general but would handle the third example much differently. Yes, a good reason for GAL is to create some curiosity about what you're up to these days. But there's no need to explain everything. In Stronger's example I would NOT have told who I was with and what I was doing. If asked, I would have simply replied that I was out for the evening or maybe at the movies and let him wonder with whom. When BF would call I wouldn't answer the phone. Instead I listened to his vm to see if he wanted something specific or just general checking up on me. I kept communication to business only because my personal life was no longer any of his business. I did ask him to watch the cats when I went out of town but didn't tell him where or why I was traveling. He never asked me specifics so I didn't elaborate but if he had, I would have responded generically and let him wonder. We have enough mutual friends that if he had asked around he could have figured it out but the info was not going to come from me.

Also, sex was out of the question for me. I stated many times over the course of our R that I do not believe in sharing. I think that's part of the reason BF had an EA/PA because he knew it was the one thing I would not tolerate and would therefore force me to be the one to end it (cowardly). At first, when I found out and didn't throw him out, it threw him for a loop. Then he was enjoying the cake eating and I was growing more resentful by the day. I realized that I just could not tolerate it and said enough, packed him a bag and he was out. Yes, he ran straight to the OW and moved in with her for a month. I don't know what happened during that time and I don't really want to know. But then he got his own apartment and started telling me he wanted to work things out. So in my sitch I think forcing them together (and exposing to anyone who asked) took the excitement out of the affair and ended it quicker.

I have been working on them and taking accountability for a lot of things...the issue is he doesn't seem to want - at least not know - to even give me the chance to 'show' him I have changed.

Take accountability for your actions and change to make yourself a better person. It has nothing to do with your H, it has to do with self discovery and self improvement. Remember, you can't control anyone's actions but your own. Your H isn't interested in working on your M now. That's a fact. If/when he is, Stronger's H is right: the only way he will believe in your changes is if he observes consistent behavior over time. Plus trying to "make him see" is both pursuing and controlling, neither is attractive in a partner.

My H has a tendency to not step up to the plate...in which case it may be that he does not take action to file. But I don't want to be in limbo forever.

This is tricky. I was in a similar sitch in that I wanted BF to man up and be the one to leave if that's what he wanted, but eventually I realized that he was too much of a coward, I was done and ready to move on. I would just take things one day at a time, you'll know in your gut when you want or need to take further action.

Let him pursue, me - GAL, and then start w a friendship and see positive stuff in me.

I'm going to say it again because I don't think you get it yet: stop making this about your H and start making it about you. Be happy and fulfilled, a woman only a fool would leave. If your H chooses to leave...enough said. If he chooses to come back you can decide if he is good enough for you.

[Deep]

hhh, for what it's worth I think coming to terms with your own faults in what went wrong in the M is good and fine, but in line with making this about YOU, work at it to change yourself for the better - it's pointless giving your H more fuel for his wantaway fantasy than is absolutely necessary.

From what you posted, an OW(s) might very well exist, if only in your H's mind. There's a chance he is looking for an A to happen.

And to add on to what Trying wrote, Retro was not a magic pill that made everything alright overnight. W was still confused / in love with OM before, during, and after the first weekend (and yes she did not go looking for it either). W was adamant she felt nothing for me beyond caring for me and not wanting to see me hurt. And yeah, the similar intense pressure I did put on her before I detached also drove her very much back to OM. Retro opened up the communications we had let die, and some of what had to be heard and said were really, really painful in the extreme. It was enough to make W realise that this level of sharing could maybe, just maybe, point that there was still something there. There was a tiny spark of that old connection.

It didn't mean the rollercoaster for the next year or so wasn't hellish.

Don't give up, or think there is no hope.