Hi guys, Thank you all so much for your advice and for checking in; I really appreciate it! You all have some pearls of wisdom and I thank you for your candor, I need to hear these things.
In terms of GAL and all, I actually do feel better this past month with H out of country than I have all this yr..I've had time to reflect and not obsess as much about 'should i call, should i not call' etc. I probably do seem desperate and I don't want to.
Would have written here last night but got home late from work travel...the thing is I travel a lot for work and I've tried to make it more fun for myself lately, where it used to be a bear. I meet up with old friends in cities across the country, explore, talk to random people on the plane. I'm trying to live in the moment before and enjoy 'me' time. He definitely creeps up in my mind a lot, but being with my oldest friends more across the past few months has reminded me about 'me' before H entered the picture. I've also been doing a lot of little things to treat and reward myself (airport massages!) and have been getting some good feedback at work lately, where 3 months ago I felt I could barely do my job.
I have been taking care of my appearance more too, and having fun with that...putting on a little extra makeup, getting lots of exercise...buying an item or two when i used to hate shopping (yes I am one of those women that actually does not like to shop...but now I'm having fun w it).
I did go to therapy the first 6 mos of this year...my insurance just changed so yet to find a new one. As Stronger said, you are right, it made me face some demons I had to own up to, and behaviors and ways that were not healthy...for that I am grateful. I've read Pearl's link on 'loving detachment' several times and try to envision me and H as 'mere specks in this huge universe' to think that there is so much more out there. I do vent to my friends and mom, but trying to - if I can - talk about it a bit less as I think my friends were getting sick and tired of it and giving advice, and it often just upset me more.
I get it about not talking to friends. I appreciate your advice. I think I will just sit tight and do my own thing until/if H contacts me when he gets back. Funny thing is he did email me about 2 weeks ago from abroad, and I decided to sit on it a few days - not write back right away - and on the 4th day he emailed me "Hello? Are you mad at me? Why haven't you written back?" and just asked how my mom was recuperating....it seems like my pulling back is better perhaps, keeps him curious. It's hard in person, however, when he asks how I'm doing to just fake it and say 'fine'. That i need to work on...I always seem to tear up when he asks me that question.
So yesterday on the flight home I see a very, very cute man...I checked him out and smiled. Of course nothing came of it but it made me realize there are other people out there... I think that's one of my big fears too, is never meeting anyone again that I have that level of closeness with. Common fear I'm sure. It's also hard when I spend time w friends who have kids b/c I do really want a family one day...but I've decided that worrying about it doesn't help. I need to do the 'fake it till i make it' more...think positively and be happy even when I don't feel so...it does help when I've expirimented in the past.
So to answer Stronger's question. Yes, I absolutely would have no problem changing my name and told him a few months ago I would do so, and would if we got back together. I always thought I would when we had kids. Part of it was my dad died shortly before we got married, and I am an only child, so I guess it was a way to 'hold on' to my identity and my fam of origin in some ways...and i'd been using it w work and everything for past few yrs. But with kids I always wanted one family name. In terms of background, his family comes from South America and although he is very americanized...grew up in Miami and went to college in northeast and everything, lately the more 'traditional' side has come out. I speak Spanish fluently and have lived abroad, so for me I've always been very comfortable around the culture, but lately he'd said comments like "i'm just not the subservient type women.." WTF??? He knew who I was when he met me, yes that I enjoy my career and work hard and am certainly a modern woman, but at same time have traditional values and want a family. I think his fam sees me as this very modern woman - perhaps not trad'l enough or something - and that's hurt things...I don't know. So there are some cultural differences, along with diffs in education, bkdg, economics etc in our fams of origin. Not a big deal for me and he and I are very much on same page w our values (or so I thought) - but it sounds like his values may have changed. At this biz school you go out and younger women pawning all over him.. I still think he's going through some early MLC or identity thing b/c he was so sweet and almost passive in our marriage and now he's trying to assert himself in different ways and talks about people in a way he never has before.
I did buy Stronger's book suggestion: "how to improve marriage w/o talking about" and will read this weekend..although dont know if i'll have a chance to practice tactics since we don't live together" But last night I did have a more empowered moment when I thought about all his recent grievances (the name change or joint account b.s.) - and then thought to myself, "well if you're the man in this relationship, why the hell did you never, ever bring this stuff up??" He always deferred to me and he could have stepped up to the plate more himself.. blah blah but all is past stuff guess.
So i'm trying to just do my own thing across the next couple wks. He prob will contact me shortly to get his remaining stuff at our apt to move into his new one (w his 27-yr-old male roommate, who in my opinion is going on 21)...I wonder if starting over and setting up everything new will make him wonder about the finality of what he's doing. Who knows? For the time being I plan to stay in Boston and be somewhat bi-coastal so I'm not here in his world all the time...but again if this does end I'll probably think about moving. When he asks why I'm not moving I just say "I like it here" and leave it at that, but I think he thinks I'm staying for him.
Anyways, yes I do absolutely still love him and think we could have something wonderful again if he was willing to make this work, but I also have my moments of "I deserve better" which feel empowering. I think Retrovaille would be healing regardless of what happens in the future, and have tried to position it so that we can communicate better and let go of past regardless of the outcome... but I will not press it as Pearl suggests when he gets home.
Thanks for reading. Please let me know what other ?s you might have to clarify the situation. I agree that what men often like in the beginning they decide is too much later on..and I know that i need to work on some tendencies too. At this juncture though i feel 'damned if I do and damned if i dont' w H...but I should prob just start living my own life a bit more, I know. I hope you are all doing well! Kindly, hhh
First of all, if you're ever in Denver and want to meet up for a drink, let me know.
Secondly, I hit a major road bump with BF last night so I'm not up for a lot of advice or insight today.
Originally Posted By: hhh
I agree that what men often like in the beginning they decide is too much later on..and I know that i need to work on some tendencies too.
In the book After the Affair it talks about how personal qualities are like coins, there are two sides. What we like about a person has a flip side that we don't like and vice versa. For example, I don't like that BF doesn't plan ahead for anything which leads to missing out on doing things. On the flip side, he is spontaneous which leads to experiences that we'd never have planned.
I hope that sheds a little light on that phenonmenon. It has helped us to discuss that and gain some understanding of what each person brings to the table.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
Do not change your name if you don’t want to. You said he had an issue with it and I wondered why you didn’t….not by any means suggesting anything, I was just curious.
I wondered about his background vs. yours because my husband and I are from very different back grounds too, but have much of the same values still. So different back grounds….it doesn’t have to be a deal breaker.
I think maybe going dark might work for you, have an impact. And it will mean more when he’s here and you aren’t trying to contact him. And when he tries to get money out of you, kindly tell him, “When you walked away, you walked away from everything. It’s a matter of self respect….do you understand?” And stop supporting him. Or you give him the money and ask exactly when he’ll pay you back….but I would just say no kindly. And he needs to know, he can be a masculine manly man in the marriage. He didn’t have to leave it to find himself.
If he asks you again about where you are going to live, ask him why he’s asking. Again, he walked away.
You are a strong, sexy, smart woman. Act like it. No more asking him to work on things. Time to go dark.
And I think Gucci’s program may do wonders for you. I really do. I don’t recommend it for everyone, but I think you could learn a lot from him.
Exactly. Like I said, I don't think Gucci's plan would work for everyone...but I really think it would work for you. Sounds like your H has gotten too big of a head and he's convinced you are sitting at home waiting for him and any little tid bits he throws your way....maybe he needs to remember you have much more to offer....even if it's not to him.
First of all, Pearl, there is a good chance I am in Denver around 22nd of Sept...how do folks contact each other outside of this site without giving out #s/emails, etc? That could be fun to meet up, and I'm sorry you've hit a tough patch w BF. Hopefully things are better this weekend!
Second, what exactly is the 'gucci plan'?? I think it has to do with dating others but not exactly sure. In Boston my 3 good friends are married, and I don't have as much time to meet other single people...plus a lot know I'm still married so could be awkward - but I'm open to anything at this point. I realize I can't put all my eggs in one basket in terms of H coming around. I did tell H few months ago that I went on a date (after he was telling me he'd gone on a few), probably a bad idea, but he said "oh, i really don't care at all..." so i don't know that it would make a difference in his eyes, but maybe good for me regardless.
Stronger, in terms of the name change, to clarify, he NEVER said a thing about my changing or not changing my name before or after we got married...he never once brought it up. I initially told him i'd probably change within the year of being married, never did, and he never said anything. It wasn't until AFTER we separated that he told me I was never a 'team player' in our marriage b/c I didn't change my name and we had kept our finances separate. All this stuff is coming out now, that he had bottled up and never discussed w me. If it was so crucial/important to him then, I would have, b/c I planned to anyway once we started a family (which we both agreed we wanted to once he graduated from Business School).
I absolutely agree w you that you can come from vastly different backgrounds and still have a wonderful marriage. He and I were/are more similar in many ways than his family of origin. There were several past incidents when his family said racist/homophobic things around me (which I have little patience for)..I never said a thing to MIL but told H that I don't feel comfortable when his mother uses certain words. He told his mother not to say 'n' word or 'fag' around me and she responded 'well I have to walk on egg-shells around your hoity-toity wife?' ouch. they thought i judged them and i thought they judged me. again stuff that can be worked through, but he never really stood up to me in front of his fam (a bit of a momma's boy w a lot of complicated baggage from his bkgd, alcoholic father than walked out, mother than supported he and his sister on practically nothing). he came from nothing and has excelled in many ways, and I admire him for that, but he apparently thought that i looked down on him. and of course this stuff is coming out only after our separation..
Anyways, at his core he is a good guy w a wonderful heart, who just seems to have done a 180 in not a good way. It's so hard to hear family friends and college friends tell me how they could tell he always had 'puppy dog eyes' for me, or how in love he was w me in the early days. truthfully the first few yrs of our relationship and marriage, i'd probably say he was more into me in some ways than i was into him... i wanted more of a challenge and he seemed to be a homebody and wouldn't do as much fun stuff/...now he's doing all the stuff I wanted to do together since we've separated. I think there would/could be so much hope for this - I have been humbled and brought to my knees in many ways from our separation..but i don't think he's done the soul searching i have done in this time apart. I truly think he feels he's justified in his actions - that I did not appreciate him and he got sick of it, or he still needs to prove something to somebody. His overall maturity level (and this is from friends' perspectives) seems to have gone down being in school and the whole heady-ego thing from going to H. school (in Boston).
Thanks for your thoughts and advice. I do agree that I need to focus more on myself and remember the good in me.. I am trying to detach more and more..yes I still do love him very much, yes I have some hope..and I am very scared for his return. But I can honestly say I've felt more at peace w him out of the country...I was sick of his calling and asking for favors, or saying 'we should meet for dinner tonite'.. then i'd wait around and he'd never call! wtf? i think he clearly likes the control thing he's had in the past 8 months of our separation, given that he did not feel he had much during our marriage. it's not all my fault that he did not assert himself as much as he could, though i know i played a part too.
Thanks for listening. I wonder if I should bring up retrovaille at all when he gets back. I think i'll see what state he's in first. and i think if he calls i'll hold off on responding for a few days. He returns from Asia tomorrow (yikes!) but is in L.A. for couple wks I think before coming back east. I feel less confident around him, but hopefully I can hold onto this when he returns.
Love your thoughts on gucci and any other ideas per above. Sorry for the novel!! xo HHH
Second, what exactly is the 'gucci plan'?? I think it has to do with dating others but not exactly sure.
Gucci to the rescue...
Before we start talking about dating (which is only one part of the sum total of a plan) we need to analyze this a bit more.
First. What it the reason he has been out of the country? Did he go with any people? Please explain this in more detail.
Also, one of the "key" comments you have made is...
Quote:
He's in a place where he wants to do what he wants to do, no strings attached.
You will have to build your whole game plan around that statement. It says MUCH in those few words. After reading your posts I would agree with you on that statement.
Thus, the BIGGEST key you have to follow is this... NO PRESSURE. NONE.
Your FIRST goal in your game plan is to become an expert at this.... SHOWING HIM THAT YOU ARE PERFECTLY HAPPY JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE. Life is good. You are good. You are just living it one day at a time.
Conquer that first and then we can get into the "social interaction (dating) plan and see if we can fit it into the scheme of things.
Got it?
No pressure. Be and act perfectly happy just the way things are in your life.
I am sure you want to know "can I talk to him?"
Answer.. Sure you can. Just keep to the two goals for now. Don't initiate anything, but it is okay to respond. Just do it with the two goals in mind. Each time, every time.
Stronger's quote: "And he needs to know, he can be a masculine manly man in the marriage. He didn’t have to leave it to find himself." ----- And how would/could I help let him know this by my actions in weeks ahead?
Gucci! Thanks for responding directly...I still don't know how to reach out directly to/tag people in my responses, if there is a way to do that?
To answer your question, H is abroad doing a volunteer project in Asia. He has a job w a consulting company starting in the fall and they paid him to do a 3-wk Habitat project, then he is traveling a week on his own. Before that he spent 2 weeks visiting him family, so we have not seen each other/spoken since mid-July (when I was somewhat begging retrouvaille and he pushed away). Since then my mom had major heart surgery, so I've been to CA a lot lately (and to be honest it's gotten focus off of me and on to her, which has helped..my mom and i are both helping each other right now, and it's given me a sense of purpose/mission outside myself).
He's emailed several times to check in (really on her i think) and actually called her the night before her surgery. Business school and constant partying are finally (i hope!) over...and real life may kick in for him when he starts his job (not till Oct).
In the meantime, GAL it seems should be my main goal! I have made some progress yes in that area and will continue to do so. I will not initiate contact until he gets back. He needs to miss me (if i can? i dunno if he'll ever feel that..)
Anyways, I just get nervous/don't know how to be around him. He asks how I am and I get that I say "fine" w a smile, not a ton of detail, not return all the calls, and just stay busy. He's never proactively brought up D unless I talk about R, so I will not talk about R... but he may bring up D himself when he gets home...then what do I say/do? That's what I struggle w...I can pretend I am fine, but still pretend I am fine when he wants D? That is the tricky thing..
Any other male intel would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks! hhh
It's weird how some days I feel fine and some days I feel lonely. I have been trying to say to myself some of gucci's thoughts above "no pressure, and act as if everything is fine". Is that what 'act as if' means? Act as if you're ok, or act as if you and H will be together again?
I don't want to feel nervous when seeing H again, but I do. I know I can't come across as desperate. If/when he calls I may not call back right away, but I'm afraid then he'll play the 'hard to get/ignore' game right back w me.
Awhile back, when I suggested we spend some time together so he could see the changes/maybe new dynamic between us, he said: "I'm fine to hang out as friends, but I don't want you to get the wrong idea". The DB thing to do seems to start a slow friendship back up, but I wonder if that could hurt my healing process more if there is no chance.
Maybe I'm overthinking things too much. From what I've written in my thread, does it seem like there really is no chance? It's hard to know when hope can hurt or help.
One other idea, I have a cousin who's wife is dying of lung cancer. He sent my fam the most beautiful email about cherishing every moment and living in the now, it was so touching (he and wife had been married 46 years and so he said a comment about this bonding time for them at the end of her life after so many years together). I thought of forwarding it along to H just to let him know, as he'd met cousin and wife many times...I also wanted to share the message in the email w him, about living in the now (might show him how i've changed, b/c one of his complains before was that i could not let go of the past in terms of fights and issues we had). But maybe just wait and hold off until/to see if he reaches out to me upon his return?
Anyways, just thinking aloud. If you have chance to answer any ?s above would be so grateful (in terms of what to do/say if he brings up D upon his return - I want to be prepared and not lose it!) Or how to make him still feel 'manly'?
Stronger, you said your H had papers and asked several times for you to sign. Does this mean he had filed? I honestly don't know how this process works.
Hope you're all well! At least I got a good night's sleep and went for a job this a.m....running most days helps a ton. I also have been reading bits of "how to improve your marriage without talking about it" - the dynamic perfectly described my husband and my situation toward the end...w my increasing anxiety and his increasing temper, and really my underneath desire to better connect (and going about it all the wrong way). I don't know if it's pointless to read this stuff or not, i learn things and it gives me hope, but it seems like it also makes it difficult to 'detach'
ALl of your guidance is great...thank you!!! Best, hhh
