FG, I think the hardest part of therapy is when the therapist steps on your toes enough to force you to face some truths about yourself that you have been avoiding. Maybe she is not right about everything she said, but you have to at least consider the possibility for each item and face it. Ministers can have this effect in their sermons sometimes too. Working on ourselves and becoming better people can be painful sometimes.
I have also read "The Surrendered Wife" and found it to have some merit, although I believe the author specifies clearly that the approach she is advocating is only to be used with a H who actually cares about your well-being and is at least moderately emotionally healthy (not abusive, etc.). I think in general it's questionable whether those things apply to WAHs, so operating under the principles the author advocates is iffy for many of us here in DB-land. I certainly don't believe that my H puts my needs anywhere close to on par with his own, especially since he has been pushing for me to literally commit suicide.
The other thing I want to mention is for anyone who believes that the Bible says that husbands are the boss of their wives, and wives are to obey their husbands. I have a book written by a minister (a married man, of my own denomination, by the way) which makes a good case that Ephesians 5 was NOT intended to be taken that way at all, going back to the original form of common Greek in which the epistle was written and carefully analyzing the wording.
If you are willing to at least entertain the possibility that Paul was actually advocating a more equal status between husband and wife, check out "What Paul REALLY Said About Women," by John Temple Bristow. My H, who is a lifelong Catholic (at least until MLC made him run from religion), and who (pre-MLC) was easygoing but NOT anybody's pushover, used to use this book to help explain to our fundamentalist friends why the popular Christian belief that husbands are supposed to be in charge is all wrong (part of the reason I M him!). When I read this book (and others the author wrote with similar themes), a lot of things that had bothered me about apparent inconsistency in the Bible just fell into place, and it made my faith stronger. I was never comfortable with the idea that God said I had to follow another person's orders simply because he was an outie and I was an innie!
Just breathe, FG. Then you can start processing this, bit by bit.
Peace and blessings, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
"I certainly don't believe that my H puts my needs anywhere close to on par with his own, especially since he has been pushing for me to literally commit suicide."
Now, I realise how serious that was for you-I`d read your post on same. But have to say that this time last year I was the one who begged my H to go throw himself off a bridge. Specifically to leave us and move into River View apartment ao he could go jump in the river when the mood took him.
Boy, the things we say in anger...And yip we know exactly where the soft spots are and how to twist that knife...
So maybe I don`t have my H`s best interests at heart either.
Hey, maybe I`m just as much as an abuser as he is!
I`m thinking his physically threatening me is something he was driven to do my MY insanity. Now I`m not sayin` that in any super submissive way or in a way that will ever allow it to happen again.
Setting boundaries is the cure for that one.
One of the best things I did is to ask him to stop using bad language and to stick my fingers in my ears when he started to rant.
He also knows now(finally!) that he will be listened to.
He knows there`s an outside chance that i won`t answer back with a verbal vomiting of crack pot ideas. Outside chance. I working on making it a definite possibility...
Validating. Now that`s a gem.
I`ve time to digest his ideas when I do that.
The Too Late thing is my problem now.
I`m a slow learner.
Looking to catch up on your sitch Dawn-there`s a lot there!-and post on your thread.
Hey, FG, thanks for your kind words, and hope I could help. I can't speak to whether you are an abuser or not--insufficient data to draw conclusions. I think what we are called to do is to acknowledge and express regret for our sins, and then work with God to repair the damage and become better people.
I do want to clarify, in the interests of truth in advertising, that my H has never actually told me to kill myself. What he has done repeatedly post-bomb is to commit some new atrocity against our M, allow me to find out, and then ask me if I was going to kill myself. It happened so many times that I was forced to admit to myself that he was trying to push me over the edge without getting blamed for it. Not that I would ever point this out to him, at least not anytime soon, but I know what he has been doing...even though he probably doesn't realize it himself.
Yep, there's a lot to catch up on in my sitch. I write too much! I have a lot fewer posts than many of those who have been on here as long, but my posts are 10x the average length from most people!
Would be pleased to have you visit my thread!
Peace, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Dawn, I agree with your assessment of the "Surrendered Wife" in that the whole thing really is for people in R where both care. But it opened my eyes to a few things and how I could change those things about me and not emasculate H at the same time. Stupid stuff, but the beginning of my freedom to be honest. I didn't trust H with anything, was the bottom line. My fault, his fault, probably both of ours. I just lived by the "if you want something done right, do it yourself" rule and he lived my the "I'm gonna say what I want and you are going to figure out how to make it happen, then if I don't like it I don't have to be responsible" rule.
So now I can be a passenger in the car without constantly acting like H is going to kill us (although there are times when I still want to grab the seat). I let him make major financial decisions and he can't blame me if there is no money. Just little ways to release control and it has translated into the rest of my life, allowing me to relax more. And it has allowed me to accept that there are things that are masculine that I just plain out enjoy, like home improvement projects.
And I do agree with your assessment of male/female R as the Bible talks about it. That has changed with the times and if we look at when it was written and how people lived then, that is what it meant. But for current times, I think it has to do more with roles and the whole hunter/gatherer/nurturer thing. Poor men have no idea what we want from them anymore or how they are supposed to act. IMO, the only true "manly" act they have anymore is contributing the sperm. It really is the only thing that we women cannot do and I do believe that if we could figure that out... We want them to wash the dishes, change the oil in the car, work, cry, nurture the kids, etc...All the things that we as women have learned that we can do. Many of the things that we expect from men are not part of their natural makeup. It is confusing for them to have the feminine part of their anime taking a much larger role. Personally, letting myself off of the hook and accepting more a more traditional "feminine" position in my entire life has been wonderful and freeing experience for me. I don't pretend to be stupid or incapable, I just simply choose not to do things if they do not meet my needs. That is why there are two of us. I know if H left today, I could take care of all of the stuff I need to. But honestly, many of the things I can do, like snaking the toilet and trimming tree branches, do not make me feel womanly. And with two man/boys in my house, there is no reason I should have to while they sit on their butts and do nothing because they know I will do it all. So it has been a slow road, but I do see my H being willing to do the things that I used to, while I do the things I enjoy and I don't know if he feels more masculine or not, I think in the moment he does, he feels like I think he is capable of more than just bringing home a paycheck. But it is definately small baby steps. And there has been some major adjusting, because my H is more intellectual than physical by nature (he was raised by women, with only a tyrannical grandfather for a male role model as dad, well waste of space) and because he is now a workaholic, he is not home often to do this stuff. But he is willing to show S how to do things so that I don't have to, which right now I view as a plus.
Sorry for the rambling. FG, I want to ask you something, now you look back and see your whole role (although I believe you are totally missing the positives) from the beginning. Do you also see H's? Do you see why you and he were attracted to each other? Our issues, especially my H's anger, start at the very beginning of our R, and we were teenagers so really from his adolescence at least, so I too wonder if it can change, but the only way to see is to do the work. Whether he wants to or not. Remember the butterfly effect. But do not totally submit yourself as the "dutiful wife" if that is not you either. Find a balance. Within yourself.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Well, Cat, the phrase "drop the rope" is used here a lot. I take it to mean-correct me if I`m wrong-just not fighting so much for the M. Give the WAS plenty of leash. Relax,chill have fun while you`re at it.
I should have dropped the rope a long time ago in the M. With the housework, the kids, everything. Just minded me more.So being submissive as the Bible mentions, I take to mean at least not feel you have to be in charge all-or any-of the time.
Defer to H. I`d like to hear guys opinions on this though.What really makes them feel good about themselves? Apparently I wouldn`t know as my therapist(bless her heart) said yesterday I wouldn`t know how to love a real man!
Actually I think I should start a separate thread on that one. Only real men need respond of course!!
But to get to your question re our mutual attration...My therapist reckons I fell for the pain in H as it made me feel superior(Hey, I can fix him!). She hit the nail on the head. Can you hear the bitch in me that felt superior to H right from Day one? Can you hear to low self esteem place I was at so that I needed someone weaker to make me feel good?
That started a spiral of H feeling inferior, believing he was inferior-heck, being told by me! he was inferior. Then him getting waaay to angry. Me not listening. Him lashing out. Then feeling sorry for himself. I me feeling sorry for him too. And I can fix him. And off we go again.
Some merry go round.
Break that?
Well, we`ve broken the anger. I shut the f*** up and listened. Didn`t agree enough. But at least I listened.
Setting boundaries on how he could talk to me forced him to be more articulate.
Me calming my anxiety made him feel safer to talk to me.
Now we`re in the sympathy zone. Everything H has said-bury me in my homeplace, my BP is high, so and so had a heart attack, mother is annoyed at me, I`ve fallen out with ppl at work.
I`ve literally squeezed his heart(made a vegetable out of him, according to my therapist...) and now he`s in pain.
But its imperative that I DO NOT HELP. I CANNOT FIX HIM!
So hey, I`m chipping away at this with baby steps. Right now all those steps are for me. My step now is to feel the guilt, own my part in this mess, and be ready to agree with H next time he says anything.
Really Cat, its about changing this into a whole new different marriage-and that`s only if H doesn`t bail out soon.I`m not worried about what attracted us in the begining-all friendships change with time anyhow.
Dunno what to make of H right now. Yesterday afternoon he just looked strange. DD9 had been complaining of a pain in her side so I told H and asked him when did he have appendicitis as a kid. H stared at me with a smile. But didn`t answer. I asked him again. But he just seemed lost in another world and yet smiled at me strangely did said "what was that?" I really got a shock and asked him if he was okay but I left then as I had decided not to get pulled in to fixing him.
Half and hour later he was fixing himself something to eat so I figured well, he must be okay...
This am he`s back in angry mode. I just can tell now by his demeanour-dead eyes, stern expression. But I`m ignoring it. Light-though little-chat on my part. Then I find he`s been at through my phone again-trying to find the pin number so it`s blocked. And doing silly stuff like putting away the ironing board when I`ve taken it out, eating the dinner I`ve left but leaving his dirty dishes around.
Could the guy be suffering from depression?He`s got all the withdrawn behaviours, the diconnection from his kids, me and his own family. Avoidance of people. Emotional unavailblity. Irrational behaviour. Mood swings. Anger.
I`m stayin` calm, calm. But my gf is concerned and is urging me to call the doc. She`s a psychiatric nurse and knows her stuff.
Fallgirl, He's definitely got depression going on, but it's more like the teenage son acting out at mom. He's doing a lot of what we would expect from teenagers. He's also attempting to push your buttons for a reaction. Don't give him one.
There's no need to call a doctor...you can't fix him...remember? He's got to be the one to do that. Now, if you get sucked into his drama full time, you'll definitely need to see someone. They are just plain nuts when they are going through the replay/depression stages. Drama is written all over him. The best thing to do is ignore his behavior and continue living your life and being there for your children. The less you react to his nonsense, the better.
Good luck!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Fallgirl: All I ever wanted in my wife is nice and normal. I would have liked to know how much she loved me. Make me feel good about myself. I don't think I ever felt unconditional love from her. Just a letter from her telling me how she feels would have meant the world to me. I always got the tough exterior. It was a rare occasion when she was romantic. There were times on special occasions, etc..but never really felt like she wanted me.
Anyway, I think I entered anger mode about four days ago. She kept asking what she did. Why am I mad. I told her that was an insult to even ask me what is my problem. I said you have made it perfectly clear on many occasions that you don't care about my feelings. I finally told her I saw the letter she written about only marrying be 15 years ago because her father approved. I finally told her that I know she said "I wish he would cheat on me because I know it would be easier" to one of her friends. I told her that I feel that she was just trying to break me so I would file. She actually told my 11 year old that she may live next door to me some day. My son said, "Dad don't worry, I fixed it. I told mom to just worry about what is going on now."
She came home last night at 4am. Just as my 9 year old woke up with a fever. I just can't look at her. I am so angry right now. Being Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. chit chat guy, doing everything around the house guy, cooking guy has done nothing. I know it takes time, but I just can't act anymore when there is this anger so deep inside.
Glad you can still keep up the nice woman routine. I just can't act anymore...
Remarried 6 mo S 12 S 13 S 16 SD 12 SD 16 SD 17 SS 19
As is his wont these days, H confronted me as I lay in bed last night.
"My mother is in a bad way and its all because of you. She`s crying on the phone saying she thought, of all her kids, I`d be the happiest one. But I haven`t been happy for the past fifteen years"
Sigh.
My fault.
But I listen and nod and validate. Its previous conversations rehashed, though I do ask him about rooting through my handbag and my phone. He flatly denies either.
Now I am very very positive that only he was in the house when my bag was searched.And very very positive it was searched. And only he had access to my phone either.
But honesty is so not his strong point.
He says he`s heard out in the community that he had a mental problem. "Do you think I need a psychiatrist?"he challenges. I dont know where, how or who he`s been talking to but I could see from the change in him-physically and mentally that his work mates might have been gossiping. But I don`t go there.
"I have no idea what to think" I say. But I`m definitely not going to the doc now even if he`s in terminal depression cos he`ll smell a rat a mile off.
He starts to get angry and walks out.
An hour later I go downstairs to him. I just tell him I am sorry for my part in all of this. I am sorry for not listening, for being critical of him in the past and for not making him feel loved and cherished. I wish him well and wish him a good nights sleep.
I am calm, not tearful, he just looks at me, says nothing. That`s ok. My intention is to own my part in our downfall.
A few minutes later he`s back upstairs. What is that all about he asks. I tell him I just wanted to say sorry for my part in things, that therapy has not being all about me feeling good in myslef but that the therapist reflects on his POV too. That leads to another rehashing on his part of the past. I say as little as I possibily can. Just let him talk.
He tells me its okay for me. I`m looking so well. I`m moving on with my life. I`ll be fine.Everyone will tell me how great I`m looking when I return to work(he has a thing about appearances) and that I`ve past him out. I tell him I`m not trying to pass him out. It`s not a competition.
And I get why couldn`t I have done all those things before?(because I didn`t know about divorce busting-but I didn`t tell him that!)He reminds me of a letter he sent to me for my 40th telling me of things I should change about myself. (I remember;I was very shocked and upset at the time-utterly callous)He says he could have written more but was afraid to speak his mind(!)
I`m wondering what in the hell have I married. A blatant liar, with an anger management issue, an oedipus complex and a complete inability to empathise.
But I keep my mouth shut.
His talk is interjected with lots of"its too late now". and he finishes with his first direct reference to separation"I`m going to find it so emotionally upsetting hving to divide up all the assets"
I look at right into his eyes and say nothing. He leaves.
Its convos like the above that completely take the wind out of my DB sails. Yes, I`d like to keep the family together for the kids` sakes but I`m seeing so little to admire in the man right now.
Progress?He leaves before getting angry. No bad language. He didn`t appear to be psychiatrically unbalanced. He spoke a lot.I shut up a lot. I listened. I validated what he had to say. I apologized for my failings.I set a boundary on his rooting through my bag and phone.
Now if only I could point him away from picking at old wounds, that would help. Stock phrases for that anyone?
Oh and he said "Hi" first this morning.Yeah, usually its me. Pathetic bit of progress.
Thanks, Snodderly! You`re dead right. He`s been trying to suck me into his drama so I`m not going to his doc.
I`m over to your thread now, D to see catch up with you. Thanks for posting!
I see you are dolling out some very wonderful advice. You have come such a long way in such a short time. It just always amazes me when we start to change that I had to comment (sorry).
Snodderly is very right about where your H is. Maybe a mile or so behind mine from what I read LOL. You will get anger on and off because they do continue to try to drag you in, but don't fall for it. You may see bits of other replay behaviors (although here they seem to be more like bathroom stops now), you know buying something out of the ordinary, trying a new food again, etc...They do miss out on stuff. My H seems not to remember puberty, so he has been of little help guiding my S through shaving and what not. So now, here, we are watching things mainfest in the physical way. Aches, pains, funny rashes, my H actually had a list of stroke symptoms the other night (he is fine but you wouldn't have known it at the time.) So that is another day in the life of MLC...
S gets his driving permit next week and I am not looking forward to that. Smile girl, you are doing great.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
