Over the Shock and GALing 6

[gucci loafer]

After I asked her directly why she keeps harping on this friend of mine's sexuality and why she seems to be so bothered by my friendship with him, she admitted that it wasn't really him, but me

"You have made all of these changes recently and they are making you much more effeminate and it's creeping me out!!"

You then blame her? She just told you that she views you more feminine. (turn off to a woman) and it goes right over your head and you then blame her, her friend and the OM?

So, you ask her why. She then tells you and then you deny that she feels that way?

Part of the reason she feels that way is that you ARE acting feminine.

How?

"I noticed that although you promised to delete him, you have not done so. Please do so. It is important."

There is one hint. I must tell you that interactions like THAT are not helping you to overcome the issue of her viewing you as feminine...

You need to take her feelings on this issue very seriously. When a woman starts viewing a man in that way, he is toast as far as a romantic relationship is concerned. You may need to get the book "Men Women and Relationships by John Gray. He touches on this very subject in this book and what happens when a man and woman have this dynamic going on. She loses all romantic and sexual interest in him. Essentially, she becomes the male and he becomes the female in the relationship. None of which is good. He calls it "role reversal." He wants to talk more and more about the relationship and how she has hurt him (more feminine qualitites) and she doesn't want to talk about it (more masucline qualities) He is more into " his feelings" and constantly wanting to talk about "the relationship and his feelings and such and she is more logical and wants to "sigh" and thinks to herself "not another relationship talk." etc. etc. role reversal.

[Thinker]

Thanks for stopping by Gucci,

I have a few corrections, just to more clearly explain the sitch.

You then blame her? She just told you that she views you more feminine. (turn off to a woman) and it goes right over your head and you then blame her, her friend and the OM?

Don't get me wrong here. I see exactly how she feels, don't deny it, and know exactly how much of a turn off it is. It's a real issue.

So, you ask her why. She then tells you and then you deny that she feels that way?

I never denied that she felt that way. What I doubt is the cause she expressed. I don't think that this has anything to do with "The changes I have made". I am more relaxed, dress a little better, am in a lot better shape, and spend more time with my friends rather than sacrificing it all for work and home maintenance, but nothing that I have changed could be called "effeminate"

She, however, has changed a lot recently, is more focused on her looks and on appearances, and has changed her circle of friends. The people she seems to emulate now are a lot different from those she has hung out with in the past.

Part of the reason she feels that way is that you ARE acting feminine.

I agree with you in that since the bomb (especially immediately after the bomb) I became the one who wanted to talk and she became the one avoiding discussions.

I also agree that for a long time I was not good at setting boundaries and she walked all over me - until I would get angry and resentful and that only exacerbated the problem. This is one area where I have gotten a lot better. I still struggle a bit, but it is normally now with the "How and when" part - ie do I have the discussion now over the phone or next week when I get home and can do it face to face. This is a huge difference from the way I used to avoid the discussions all together.

You need to take her feelings on this issue very seriously. When a woman starts viewing a man in that way, he is toast as far as a romantic relationship is concerned. You may need to get the book "Men Women and Relationships by John Gray. He touches on this very subject in this book and what happens when a man and woman have this dynamic going on. She loses all romantic and sexual interest in him. Essentially, she becomes the male and he becomes the female in the relationship. None of which is good. He calls it "role reversal." He wants to talk more and more about the relationship and how she has hurt him (more feminine qualitites) and she doesn't want to talk about it (more masucline qualities) He is more into " his feelings" and constantly wanting to talk about "the relationship and his feelings and such and she is more logical and wants to "sigh" and thinks to herself "not another relationship talk." etc. etc. role reversal.

Believe me, it's serious. I'll read the book, but I think I already understand where the sitch and the R are.

Where I am a bit lost is what to do to fix the sitch.

I do know that she is spending time with people who are not friends of the M and who talk disrespectfully toward me.

I do know that she is always testing to see if I am still watching. Part of the reason she (re)friended OM was (in her own words) "to see if I was still looking over her shoulder"

So I'll chew on it a bit more.

Something's got to change.

[Thinker]

2x4's are welcome

[Sara]

Nothing has changed. She is still trying to get out of Retrouvaille and will do or say anything, even drop another bomb. Don't underestimate how frightened she is of the weekend. You are getting your way, she is going to the weekend. But she will punish you first. This is the punishment. The best you can do is keep contact minimal until the weekend. You are going to have to put up with 5 weeks of her tongue lashings until you get her there. Just take it. It will be worth it in the end.

[Thinker]

Thinking and realizing...

Things that you know, but don't understand how they apply to your own sitch...

Things that you don't see that become so obvious in retrospect...

Cheeseless tunnels that you realize you have been stuck in...

I am realizing today that although I have done a lot of things right, I have not addressed the core issue in my M. Not even begun. In fact, I may have made it worse.

I stopped pursuing, I got a life, I worked on myself. I detached. I am genuinely happier with myself and with my life than I was 10 months ago. I am more aware than I have ever been.

I have addressed a laundry list of complaints that my W had regarding me and our life together. I am more involved with the kids, I help out more, I respect her more, I am less critical and less rigid, I have fun more. I no longer obsess over work. These were her long time complaints, and they are gone. I don't hear any of them any more.

But the thing that I heard for the first time with the bomb, the thing that I didn't understand and therefore dismissed as purely a result of the EA and OM, I haven't addressed. I assumed it would be corrected by space and time and loving support from me. It hasn't. In fact, it seems to have gotten worse.

With the bomb, for the first time I heard "I'm not attracted to you any more"

Several times during the following months I heard "You don't understand. You're not listening. I'M NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU!!"

Then in April or May I heard (and dismissed as ridiculous) "I am afraid that you are secretly a homosexual"

And then I heard it again last week.

...you would think that sooner or later I would listen...

It seems obvious now, but I am adept at avoiding the painful obvious.

The CORE issue in my M is not the EA or my working hours or the amount I help out around the house. Those are all issues or symptoms, but not the core.

The core issue is that Mrs. Thinker has decided that Mr. Thinker is not man enough for her. So much so that she no longer even want's him to give him a chance or to let him try.

OUCH!!

OK, so there it is. It's my problem to fix - for myself if for no other reason.

It's not physical.

It's emotional.

It's in the dynamic between us.

I can't fix it by taking back the bedroom or the house or dating other women (the normal options proposed in similar situations) because we are still living together and in the same bedroom and are not separated.

I started the process by now being the one who periodically proposes getting on with a D - when I did so in our last argument she responded with "Oh Stop It!", so our roles are reversing there.

I am sure part of it is sexual. She has controlled the proverbial "keys to the bedroom" for so long that I became tentative and hesitant after years of repeated rejection. This has to change, but I don't think I can change it now. She is not at all open to the idea.

So it has to start elsewhere. In our dynamic. In our family life.

I am not sure where or how. Here is where I get a bit lost and confused.

For me, this is uncharted territory.

[Thinker]

Hi Aliveandkicking,

Just responding to your posts:

There may be something there with the finances. In our past, I made the money and she handled the budgeting. That was fine then, but recently our expenses (with kids and a new house) have increased faster than my income, so it has become more of a stress, and with her focus on her mom etc, I know my W is tired of her role as chief accountant. With her consent, I am now stepping into this role. I am firing up quicken this afternoon, and starting to dig in and understand the details of where we are financially.

Taking control of things financially may be part of "manning up" - and it may also just be part of preparing myself for a future D. In either event, I need to do it.

(Don't worry Sara, this isn't going to create a fight between me and Mrs. Thinker - she is asking for the help)

As far as letting my disdain show, and practicing tough love - both are things I need to work on. I am pretty good at "dispassionate" and can do "angry" , but calm, cool distain isn't something I am used to showing.

Onward and forward...

[gucci loafer]

Want to get the point across that you ARE a man to her and let her start to FEEL it...

I would recommend this....

How about kicking her butt out of the house by telling her to get her own place, telling her you have now decided that you won't share your women with anothter man and it isn't even up for negotiation. Tell her the sooner the better. No more.

Start watching action movies, get involved in a COMPETITIVE SPORT,practice being decisive, rational, and logical. (all male type qualities.) Follow through on things and keep your word. (all advice from John Gray regarding the "sensitive man")

These things make sense to the more "manly men" (no offense intended) the sensitive man doesn't totally relate.

[aliveandkicking]

Gucci, I agree accept there is no way to kick someone out of the house as far as I know. And it is pretty well established that he should not leave.

Should Thinker just say it and see what happens? I can't see her leaving.

[Thinker]

(no offense intended)

No offense taken. I don't ask for advice if I don't want it - the blunter and more direct the better. Thanks

How about kicking her butt out of the house by telling her to get her own place

Not really possible since she is the joint owner and is refusing to leave.

I did demand that she move out a month or so ago when I caught her text-flirting (or whatever you call it). I also handed her a list of mediators and went as far as to call one of them. She was shocked, immediately backed down, and stopped the texting. Since then it has been an open offer from me to pick it back up, but I have not pursued it.

When I made the demand that she move out, her response was to echo the one I made to her months ago when she asked me to leave - I'm not moving out, no way, no how, and that we would have to live together until the D was final and the house was sold.

telling her you have now decided that you won't share your women with anothter man and it isn't even up for negotiation. Tell her the sooner the better. No more.

Done. Last week. Using those words exactly. Will continue to reiterate.

The word "share" aggravates her. In her mind, since she is not having an active physical affair, I am not sharing her. My definition is quite a bit broader.

Start watching action movies

My standard fare. Always has been.

get involved in a COMPETITIVE SPORT

A new field for me (at least since College) In the last 2 months I have run a triathlon and 2 5k's. I don't have the time or work flexibility to commit to a team sport, but will consider it. I like the idea.

practice being decisive, rational, and logical. (all male type qualities.) Follow through on things and keep your word.

Rational and Logical are my standard, as is Decisive (at work). I need work on Decisive in my MR. I have also historically had difficulty confronting and discussing difficult issues. I tended to avoid them in my M. This has been a focus of mine for the past few weeks, and has to continue to be so.

---

My approach in any R-type discussions with my W in the past month or so has been to let her know directly that I don't want a D, and if she does, then it is up to her to do it, but I'll be OK in the end either way.

The next step beyond this would be to initiate and drive the D process myself. I have not done this except when triggered by a direct provocation. Most of the time she does not do that.

Now, with her more clear recent statements and my realization, the next escalation step would be for me to say "I no longer wish to be married to you and am going to move ahead with the divorce process" and then proceed quickly - Lawyers, mediator, separate bank accounts, etc.

Although I do not want to continue in the M like it is, I am not sure if I am ready to take this step.

[Thinker]

Direct situational question...

How does one appropriately respond when one's W tells you she sees you as effeminate and doubts your sexuality? (I mean respond during the discussion itself)

(Note, this is not an accusation thrown in anger, but a quiet, almost scared admission on her part)

Does one...

A) Laugh, cringe inwardly, assure her you are heterosexual, and then never bring up the subject again? (this is what I tried the first time)

B) Validate and ask for more information? "You are saying that...I can understand that this would make you feel scared and unattracted...can you give me more details" - an uncomfortable discussion at best, and could actually exacerbate the problem (to Gucci's point above)

C) Respond that she is being disrespectful...?

D) Get angry and indignant?

None of them seem terribly appropriate.

My gut instinct says "Don't hide from it, be willing to discuss it openly and understand her point of view, but at the same time state clearly that you couldn't disagree more"

Ideas / Feedback