I spent a while thinking about what bothered me about this confrontation with my W, and realized last night what it was. I had confronted her about the wrong thing.
The Book "Crucial Confrontations" ( Crucial Confrontations ) Spells it out pretty clearly: you have to make sure you are confronting about the right thing. They use the acronym "CPR"
- Content - What the person did - Pattern - The repeated history of them doing it - Relationship - The impact that this action is having on the relationship with you.
I confronted my W about the Content - (re)friending OM.
I should have confronted W about the pattern. It was the pattern I was really upset about, not the content.
So when I confronted her about the content, and she backed off, I was left unsatisfied. I knew the problem wasn't solved.
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Last night I checked, and sure enough, although she had promised to delete him, she had not done it yet.
So I confronted her about that...
This time, I was not as well prepared, and she was much more defensive...
Me: "I noticed that although you promised to delete him, you have not done so. Please do so. It is important."
Her: "Oh God, why is this such a big deal! Why are you monitoring my page anyway! I don't even go on facebook anyway, you are...."
...and yes, I was tired, and unprepared for the confrontation, and not good at managing her deflections. She did manage to turn it into a discussion of a number of supposed things I was doing wrong - getting me into a defensive position of constantly saying "No I'm Not!"
I did stick to my guns enough (repeated "By When are you going to delete him?") to extract a promise to delete him from her account by the end of the weekend (she is traveling and won't have much internet access before then, so that is reasonable).
But the discussion turned ugly. Calm, and quiet, but some ugly enough things came out that right now I don't really like Mrs. Thinker very much. It showed me what planet she is really on.
(and now comes the part where I bare myself here on the boards in the name of openness and honesty...)
In defending her ongoing contact with OM, she threw out an accusation that I was having an affair with a good MALE friend of mine.
WHAT!!! WTF!!!
Caught me completely off guard. I didn't know how to respond.
She threw out accusation after accusation that he is "obviously in love with you".
Now he and I have spend a fair amount of time together - we're great friends. He was one of the guys who joined me on my recent backpacking trip. I have known him for a very long time, however, and he and I are both pretty solidly sure of our heterosexual dispositions. Confident enough that the accusations surprised and confused me more than they hurt me. I responded only by telling her that the attacks were completely un-called for, inappropriate and wrong.
I was confused enough to follow up with Mrs. Thinker on the topic today. And here's proof that when the going gets weird, the Weird go pro.
After I asked her directly why she keeps harping on this friend of mine's sexuality and why she seems to be so bothered by my friendship with him, she admitted that it wasn't really him, but me -- saying "You have made all of these changes recently and they are making you much more effeminate and it's creeping me out!!"
Now I have made changes, but none all that drastic. I am pretty much the same person I always was. Many people (other than Mrs. Thinker) have noticed that I am now more relaxed, happier, and more fun to be around, but that's about it.
So I am the same person I have always been, and pretty happy with that. Personality wise, I tend to be polite and conservative, rather than boisterous and brash. I'm 5'9" and 160lb rather than 6'2" and 220lb. I race bicycles rather than playing football. I am an engineer rather than a stockbroker. I can be mistaken for young 30's rather than young 40's in age. I am who I am, and I don't worry about it all that much. I always dated women who like who I am. That's who I thought Mrs. Thinker was.
But recently it seems like Mrs. Thinker is back in high school acting like a Prom Queen who only wants to date a football player.
During the discussion this morning, I was truly curious and asked her for examples of when and how I had acted "more effeminate". She could name only one. It was a dinner party we attended as a couple a month or so ago. As the party wore on, it broke into a couple of groups. One group of husbands pulled out guitars and began to casually play a bit and sing. Another mixed group hung out in the kitchen and talked, and a third group hung out around the picnic table outside and smoked cigars and drank.
I chose to join the group playing guitars. What the hell - I never would have done that before, but it was fun and out of my comfort zone. I enjoyed it.
My joining this group was what "creeped out" my W as being "effeminate". WTF!!! At first I couldn't figure out why this would have bothered my W AT ALL.
But now that I think back to the party, Mrs. Thinker was in the group that was outside around the picnic table. So were Toxic Divorced BFF (Who is too cool for our whole town), and her equally Toxic, also divorced tough-guy plumber boyfriend (The one who was sex-texting mrs Thinker 6 weeks ago). My read on it is that this couple, with whom Mrs. Thinker has been spending lots of time recently, was criticizing and denigrating the musical group indoors (neither plays an instrument), and this embarrassed my W.
This presumption of mine may be out to lunch, but it is the only explanation I can find that fits, and I have overheard this couple in the past snidely and derisively criticizing another husband for not being cool enough. They are also exactly the people who would look at someone playing a guitar and singing and say "Oh my god that so F--cking Queer!!". I've heard them use exactly this language so it fits in with their behavior. Mrs. Thinker has become more and more influenced by Toxic Divorced BFF over the past year, dressing like her, hanging out with her all the time, etc.
And this is what really pisses me off. Not the "concerns about my sexuality" - that is so out to lunch that it really just confuses me more than anything. It is that she seems to be trying so hard now to be one of the "cool kids" that she cares so much about what they think that she is now basing her opinion of me on their criticism.
She is also building a standard for herself that I don't even want to try to meet. She has clearly articulated my "changing and being too effeminate" as the reason she is no longer attracted to me and the reason the marriage can't work. Now, I haven't really changed, so she must have changed be changing her own standards of attractiveness. This would make her now attracted to a person that I have no interest in becoming.
The whole thing just sickens me. If she weren't the mother of my children, she wouldn't be welcome back after her trip this weekend. I just don't like her. I don't like the way she is acting or the people she is hanging out with. And I respect myself too much to deal with someone who is going to treat me like this.
I am ready to walk out myself. Today I contacted another lawyer and opened up my own separate credit card and checking accounts - both empty but ready to go. I need to take a deep breath or I won't make it to Retrouvaille (5 weeks from today) without dropping my own bomb. --
So that ends my rant for the evening. It leaves me with two questions:
1) Has anyone else experienced something similar? I am particularly interested in hearing from any of the women as to whether they started seeing their H's in a similar light.
2) I am not going to let this one sit there, so how do I respond to it? I can't attack her for feeling that way - it's her reality. Defending myself is just playing to lose. I don't want to just brush it off.
So, as usual, I am open to feedback.
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Last edited by Thinker; 08/15/0904:15 AM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Fortunately, I am not going to see W until Monday, so I can just go out and have fun with the boys, relax and enjoy the weekend.
Next weekend I am taking the boys camping (W has even expressed interest in coming), and after that we are taking a family trip to go visit her Mom, who I like and who may not have that much longer to live.
After we come back, there are really only 2 weeks left until Retro.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Forgive me for actually chuckling...that is some insane sh*t! Welcome to the Twilight Zone.
First of all, mind reading or not, I think you have her pretty much pegged in that she is so damned insecure she is relying on other peoples' opinions to guide her. Same in my sitch.
Now, I did lose respect and attraction for my H and I even questioned (in my mind) his sexuality at times. He was always extremely physical but so wishy washy and he emanated a sort of lost puppy vibe so much of the time.
All you can do...Pay attention Thinker. All you can do is man up. She is begging for it. And maybe you will end up walking and that is what manning up is to you. Or maybe you go dark on her. Only you can define what it means to retain your dignity and your nuts.
As far as I'm concerned, she is sabotaging your progress and potential (Retro), she is daring you to leave and calling you a pansy for staying.
Dig deep. Can you man up within the confines of your home? Or do you have to get out?
And by the way, un-friending takes a mere minute and no one needs a whole weekend to do it.
You, Thinker have to grab the bull by the horns and without fanfare, do what you need to do.
Sh*t, I'm starting to agree with Gucci. Maybe you should just blow her off and go on a date...with a woman of course.
Oh, one other question...is there anything (think) that is not being handled in your life together (finances, decisions, medical)? I know in my sitch, the elephant in the room was our abysmal financial situation and it was at the root of my discontent. I felt anxious and lonely and like I was not being considered or taken care of. It felt like a lie that things were remotely ok when I knew the ship was sinking.
As far as I'm concerned, she is sabotaging your progress and potential (Retro), she is daring you to leave and calling you a pansy for staying.
Exactly - very well put!
Man up - check, no question.
Date? - no, we are still living together, and since she is not openly seeing anyone - just flirting around the edges and testing me - I am not going to escalate on her.
Dark? Pretty d@mn hard when we are living together, sleeping in the same bed, and cooperating daily to get the kids to school, etc. I did have almost no contact with her for 2 weeks while I was traveling.
Get out? - I'm not moving out - no way, no how.
Throw her out? - She wouldn't go and leave her kids - we already had that discussion.
So that leaves me "manning up within the confines of my own home". I'm at the point where I'm "already divorced" so I can confront her and non of her threats of leaving, divorcing me, etc. bother me, so I can have the hard discussions. I think I am more ready to leave the M than she is right now, and able to use D as my own ultimatum if necessary.
I just don't know what to confront her about. I can't really confront her about her feelings or demand that she change her opinion, and other than the FB issue, she is not doing anything other than telling me how she feels.
Everything else is my conjecture.
So, I agree and am in just the mood and have the confidence to take a firm stance, but feel like I am fighting vapor.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Oh, one other question...is there anything (think) that is not being handled in your life together (finances, decisions, medical)? I know in my sitch, the elephant in the room was our abysmal financial situation and it was at the root of my discontent. I felt anxious and lonely and like I was not being considered or taken care of. It felt like a lie that things were remotely ok when I knew the ship was sinking.
Any elephant in the room? Even an invisible one?
Finances, Sex and Children, the three big topics.
Finances are always a stressful topic for us, but are not particularly dire right now.
We mostly agree on how to manage the kids.
So the biggest stress topic on our M is Sex - currently based on her forcefully stated lack of attraction for me.
Your description of your H as "extremely physical but so wishy washy and he emanated a sort of lost puppy vibe so much of the time." could easily have applied to me over the past few years as she slowly pushed me away.
The real stress in her life right now is her mom's terminal cancer, following her fathers death only a few years ago. It has her absorbed both with feelings of loss over her parents, and fears of her own mortality.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Hmmm...what about the elephant? Other than your M being a farce (no offense, I've been there).
Anything that is not being handled?
I only say this because I know that was the problem for me. H would do little things here and there to try to impress me or be a good guy but there was so much that was not working (mostly finances) and I could tell that he was hoping a gesture here or there would appease me.
Now, I differ from your wife in that I have never wanted to divorce. However, I did talk about it, threaten, look online for places to leave, fantasize about leaving, nitpick and even taunt him at times.
I would bet a million bucks (if I had it) that she's whistling dixie and if you actually left, she'd be pining for you within about 5 minutes.
Aaargh, my H is a weenie but I also have to recognize that my expectation that men leave helped to bring that to fruition. I know I would have preferred to do Retro or try something so again your W and I may differ but there is something she thinks should be in your M that is not. She probably doesn't even know.
I think you should let your disdain show a little, not dispassion and not pouting but a little taste of her own medicine. I don't know any other way for you to man up other than filing for D yourself...
I don't know Thinker. I really feel that in my sitch I wanted to know that H valued the marriage above all else. I think you have articulated that and she is just jerking you around.
Perhaps read up on tough love. Yep, I think that would be a good approach.
The sex is the big issue to you but what do you think hers would be?
Any chance she is more stressed about finances or the kids than you are aware?
My lack of sexual attraction to H was a result of how juvenile and insecure I felt he was. I wanted sex with a secure man. I know that sounds awful but I felt like I was having sex with an overgrown baby most of the time. I wanted to be taken by someone who knew who he was, took care of business and felt desirable himself.
