What a weekend...

[SDFoundGirl]

Hi Alex, haven't posted to you before, but I've read a little about your sitch. Hope you don't mind me commenting...

Serenity,

Thanks for the post. Very enlightening...

I'm just not sure how equipped he is at the age of 14 to practice these skills.

Your H is starting high school or at least is in 8th grade, yes? Too often we underestimate what "kids" can do if they choose it. My school has a K-8 social-emotional curriculum we use that includes the strategies that Serenity suggested to you, and all of our kids learn how to navigate conflict in this way. That includes the 1st grader with the ED (emotionally disturbed) diagnosis, the bipolar 8th grader I had two years ago, the autistic kids we teach, etc.

Now, it's tougher with bipolar kids because they have all sorts of physical challenges, but it is possible and is probably even more important for them to learn how to manage themselves.

Actions repeated over and over become habits, and I think it's this that your W is concerned about. Not that she's being particularly proactive or that she doesn't have a mountain of her own personal cr@p to deal with. She does, but that doesn't make her wrong. Regardless of her behavior, she does love her children.

It's been my experience that kids with mental health or emotional challenges respond well to very clear, behaviorist-oriented natural consequences paired with reflective-thinking.

For example...if the boundary is that hitting/physically engaging with another person is unacceptable, then maybe the consequence is immediate removal from the situation (like going to his room) and a cooling off period of X minutes. YOU know how long your S needs generally...or maybe you just check in every 15-minutes and take his temperature.

Once he's calm, then you help him process and reflect on what happened. What happened? What triggered it? How might you handle this in the future? What were your intentions? The focus here is on learning from the situation.

NONE of this is punishment. Punishment doesn't work. But your S needs some boundaries and some support in order to learn how to deal with this hand he's been dealt.

As for him using others as an excuse for his behavior:

One thing he has told me he is angry because W seems to point the finger of blame back at him. He resents that and says "Why should I behave" when "She doesn't see that she is making me angry." So, it's a "Why is this all on me?" feeling. He doesn't like that everyone has to accommodate her and is defiant to change his behavior patterns if she won't change hers.
-AlexEN

...what would DB say? He cannot change his mother, and HER actions don't make HIS actions okay. Again, actions become habits. Your S is not going to learn how to make choices based on the notion that the only thing he can control is his life unless you teach him. He IS capable of learning this, but like anything we have to learn, it will take time and consistency.

He needs to know unequivocally that while you understand his anger and frustration with his mother, you DO NOT respect or condone the manner in which he's expressing it. He needs to know that just because she is making bad choices DOES NOT MEAN he should or is free to make equally bad choices. He also needs to know this doesn't mean she wins; it means HE wins because he is making choices to make his life better.

Forgive me, because you really don't know me...but I'm going to ask you a few questions, and I want you to search for true answers for yourself....

*If your son didn't have a B-P diagnosis, would you accept his behavior?

*If your younger son were making the same choices, would that be okay?

*Is there some part of you that...hmmm...is enjoying the retribution on his mom because you're hurt/angry and unable to do the same because you're the adult?

*If the shoe was on the other foot and your S was behaving like this toward you, how would you feel? What would you do differently?

HER bad behavior does not excuse HIS. Period.

Standards of behavior don't waver...we sympathize, but we don't condone. We help people we love learn how to overcome their challenges.

And consider: the younger S is learning a lot about what's okay in your home. We learn from our models....

SD

[SDFoundGirl]

And for the record, I agree that your W is behaving like a horse's patootie. But that doesn't make her wrong about *everything*.

SD

[Serenity13]

Hey Alex -

Probably not a good idea to come over to my thread today -

Down day and I actually just posted about the only thought coming through my mind is self harm

Your son is 14 - He knows what he has I am assuming and also what it entails?

These skills could be brought down to his level...

I just want him to avoid any form of self harm, self loathing etc...

I admit I was older then him when I was diagnosed (17) but I still didn't have the skills to cope with it...

Had anyone taken the time to show me instead of just feeding me pills, I may be better off today coping with the mess my life has become -

Hindsight is a you know what (I am not allowed to curse anymore)

Since he responds better one on one, take the time to sit him down, explain that while yes he has valid points (ie: "Why should I behave" when "She doesn't see that she is making me angry." So, it's a "Why is this all on me?" feeling."), he has to find a way to deal with it more constructively...

If he wants to punch something fine but it has to be a pillow or his mattress (something soft and stable) not a wall, a door, nor his siblings...

If he feels the need to rant like a maniac, then before a word comes out of his mouth, he needs to take a deep breath, count to 30 and think before he speaks...

If he can't get a handle right then and there, send him out to take a walk or two or three around the block...

It takes patience and time - I am sure you have heard that here lol - But it can be done...

It won't happen overnight...

I am still working on that daily...

It takes every ounce of self control I have not to give into it...

Every ounce I have to not pick up the blade or punch a hole in the wall or scream at anyone in my path...

He has to learn not to feed the manic monster that lives within and some days are better then others...

You seem to have an excellent head on your shoulder so I do urge you to help him through this...

If you can't, speak to his shrink, therapist, Dr. (whatever he sees) and let them know he is having a hard (perfectly normal) time dealing with all that is going on...

Please don't let them overmedicate him to help him "deal"...

Just ask for suggestions on how to help him come through this as safely and as painlessly as possible.

[AlexEN]

SD,

Those are very fair questions... It may be easier to answer this way, by sharing the exchange we had afterwards...

W sent this shortly after sending the first e-mail:

"When S14 says something like: "Why should I listen to you?" and then continues negative behavior, or refuses to do what I've asked him to do, if he'd made that kind of remark to you, and I heard it, I would say something like "Because he's your father, he loves you and you should respect him." Not saying a word condones the negative behavior.

I also believe you made a big mistake letting him beat on you last weekend. I still have flashes of that in my mind, and it disturbs me. Letting him beat you until you're black & blue and bleeding sends the wrong message. If he's angry, he needs to learn to channel that anger appropriately...if he needs to be physical, then it should never be towards a living thing! I was mortified as I watched and yet I couldn't intervene....were shooting me looks that clearly said I should stay out of it. I wish you'd consult your team of experts about their opinion on this. I'm still shaken by it. And the worst part, is that he got away with doing that without consequence. I do not want our son to turn into a monster, and unchecked negative behavior could eventually do that... especially since he's always been more self-centered and less empathetic than his siblings."

To which I responded...

W,

This is a trial and error process with S14. It always has been. While I wouldn’t describe it as letting him beat on me, I WAS trying to deflect his anger away from you and away from himself. I’m sorry you are still disturbed by it. Perhaps that approach didn’t work, but I tried. Would I try that way again? If I thought he might otherwise hurt you or his siblings AND he was already out-of-control, I might… But when the methods we’re using aren’t working, we need to try others.

I don’t think it was without consequence, perhaps not the way you look at it, but he apologized to me (sincerely I might add and without being asked) because, IMO, he was mortified by what he had done. In this instance, seeing what he had done seemed to carry more weight than any words WE tried at the time. Yes, learning to channel one’s anger appropriately is something we should all strive to do. In most instances, it is the externalization of one’s own internal pain. The problem with S14 is that it is that much harder for him to channel appropriately. We’ve known that; it’s always been difficult to remind ourselves that he doesn’t CHOOSE to act this way. No one could; it’s even more difficult for him. He is hurting… a lot. There’s a fine line we need to walk. Am I willing to cut him a little bit of slack right now? Yes, more than I otherwise would… because the counsel I’ve received is that he needs to express, not repress.

I’ve often told him exactly as you suggest – that he can’t treat you the way he does and he can’t be aggressive to his siblings. That I don’t do it in front of you, doesn’t mean I don’t do it. You are not the ONLY one giving him this message. To me, he seems much more receptive to that message when he’s calmed down. We have had very lucid conversations about it. I have found that it carries more weight AFTER the fact, not during. When he’s in that mode (and flooding himself), he isn’t receptive to the message. It doesn’t mean I condone his behavior (I am appalled and he knows it by his aggression and by his language; I’ve specifically told him that his feelings and what he’s trying to express get lost by how he does it) and he KNOWS I do not condone it (for that matter, S9 does, too; as I find his defiance troublesome, too. Just because he apologizes for it, it doesn’t make it acceptable). It seems to me every time he is reprimanded WHILE in a tizzy, things escalate.

I am very concerned about him, too. I worry about his future behavior, too. It will be influenced by all of the messages he is getting now, not just how he is reprimanded when he misbehaves. The onus is not on me alone. I can’t make him listen to you. That is between you and him. I will continue to let him know that I don’t condone the behavior after-the-fact when I think it carries more weight, but, since it is important to you I will remind him while he is in that state, too.

What other consequences do you think WE could agree upon (and enforce separately AND together)? I am happy to brainstorm on that with you… Because I go back to where I started, with S14, we agree that the end game is for him to channel his anger better, but it’s a trial and error process.

-A

-AlexEn

[AlexEN]

SD,

He needs to know unequivocally that while you understand his anger and frustration with his mother, you DO NOT respect or condone the manner in which he's expressing it. He needs to know that just because she is making bad choices DOES NOT MEAN he should or is free to make equally bad choices. He also needs to know this doesn't mean she wins; it means HE wins because he is making choices to make his life better.

I agree with this ABSOLUTELY. I was not defending his POV, merely stating it. He has told me point-blank he wants to make her miserable even if it makes him (and others miserable). I am trying to convince him that he LOSES by that approach; but, it is where he is coming from.

Forgive me, because you really don't know me...but I'm going to ask you a few questions, and I want you to search for true answers for yourself....

I welcome this approach! Thanks!

*If your son didn't have a B-P diagnosis, would you accept his behavior?

I don't think it's acceptable whether or not he is B-P. I hope my e-mail above conveys that...

*If your younger son were making the same choices, would that be okay?

He is modelling after his brother and it is not acceptable. He directs more of his anger toward me (not that that is why it is equally unacceptable... LOL).

*Is there some part of you that...hmmm...is enjoying the retribution on his mom because you're hurt/angry and unable to do the same because you're the adult?

Ah, now this is a profound question. I would like to say no, but, at some level it may well be true. I am more troubled by the feeling I have that she won't let him express his feelings and tries to convince him he's wrong to feel the way he does... It's not so much that I enjoy it, but his real message doesn't bother me (its "packaging"... the aggression and the vile language do bother me).

*If the shoe was on the other foot and your S was behaving like this toward you, how would you feel? What would you do differently?

SD, I get my share of it from him, too. And, it feels awful (if you read what I wrote before about his "hate letter" to her, you would know that I empathize. It's awful for any parent to hear the things he has said and written.)

In all honestly, what I do differently is I let him express himself. I listen to him and he doesn't go down the same path. I take him somewhere else to talk, because the vile words to me are a sign that things are going to escalate and in and of themselves don't bother me. I try not to engage at that point unless I can talk to him one-on-one. I have become a better father through this ordeal. She is so adamant about defending herself that he doesn't feel heard. Doesn't make him right. It just is what it is... the dynamics.

HER bad behavior does not excuse HIS. Period.

100% agree... It is a lesson I am trying so hard to get him to understand. As you point out, it is modeled for him, just as he models for his siblings.

Standards of behavior don't waver...we sympathize, but we don't condone. We help people we love learn how to overcome their challenges.

Yes.

-AlexEN

[AlexEN]

Serenity,

You said:

Please don't let them overmedicate him to help him "deal"...

I had that argument with my parents who happened to witness one of his melt-downs. They thought we should have brought him to a hospital to be medicated (and W threatened him with that, too)... That to me has to be a last resort after the types of things that you and SD suggest...

Thanks,

-AlexEN

P.S. Sorry to hear today is a down day for you...

[Serenity13]

Alex -

No worries on my day...I have had some uplifting people come by my thread and that is helping...

I never asked you - I assumed it but never asked - Please tell me your son is on some form of medication for his bipolar?

[AlexEN]

Yes, lithium... and a restricted diet.

[aliveandkicking]

Hey AlexN- My password isn't working again on the FB!!

Got your message.

Just want to offer my support.

[Serenity13]

Lithium - My very first foray into meds...

As much as I hated taking it, it is an excellent medication for management...

I took it for the first 3 years and never went back on it...

I now take Geodon and Buspar and just recently had all my meds increased...

If after talking to him and none of what we have suggested helps, talk to his Dr. he may just need his meds adjusted during this time...

Adjusted -

Not turned into a walking zombie...

By the 3rd year I was on Lithium, I was up to 4 pills a day and I didn't feel anything emotionally -

Nothing...

Don't let it go to that...

During this time in his life, he may just need an additional amount to keep himself even...

He should be able to tell you if the meds aren't working...

He will know if the feelings are becoming overwhelming and that right there means the meds may be working overtime to try to keep all the chemicals balanced in his mind.