Fallgirl`s Second Thread

[trustingfaith]

FG-
I have to say, I am impressed by how well you are able to remain calm with all that anger being thrown at and around you!

[mindfull]

FG - Gosh! I tear up reading your updates re: H's wrath. I tend to agree w/Jeff. He's starting to WAY cross the line, and you have kids that are old enough to understand things. If he were to blurt something out (in anger, or in a not agreed upon way), they're going to be quite upset.

I'll be back. I feel for ya!

[Fallgirl]

Jeff,

Thanks so much for that. I think his idea of separation is just another way to get at me. And he`ll do anything to scuper that plan if he tinks I want it too!

And in all of this, my biggest consideration is the kids-I just don`t want them to be devastated by some daft ill thought out vengefull announcement.

We`ll see. It`s worth a try at this stage.

He`s at home this am so I can`t stay here long. Will check up on you all in the am!

Thanks MB and TIF. You know, from where I am now, S looks like the way to go for my M.

Appreciate you all taing the time to check in on me!

[Fallgirl]

H went off this morning. He actually told me where he was going-something he hasn`t done in a while. Also left his cell phone lying around and his credit card pouch lying around too, which he hasnt done in a while either. And kept busy attending to house and garden yesterday(another thing he hasn`t done in a while) and took the kids off in the pm.

I`m dressed to kill( and boy, I would just love to kill him but I`m trying to focus on forgiveness and letting go...)have been to church with the kids, got some fun lined up for them all for the day.

But since his blowout on Friday I just can`t pretend to be cheerful anymore. I make of point of greeting him when he comes in but I know my tone is more subdued.

My therapist has asked me to be an observer of myself. Its an interesting exercise;I`m asking myself "why am I doing this" for as many actions as I can and also opening myself up to how my heart feels. I realise how much fear I feel from my H`s presence and also how very sad I feel that the M has gone belly up.

Yes, TIF, I`m so glad I managed to stay calm. Previously I used to blame my emotionality for getting H worked up into one of his temper tantrums. Now I know that isn`t the case; he`ll just blow up anyway.I can recover very quickly too if I don`t get upset.

Since I started detaching from H he has tried in so many ways to get at me
-locking himself into my bedroom
-insisting that I sleep in the guestroom
-leaving unpaid bills ying around
-leaving me to do all with kids, house and garden
-stealing my credit cards
-taking my clit kit(you better google for that one!)
-taking my vibrator batteries(well, a girl has certain needs...)
-snooping through my cell phone
-hacking into my PC account
-deleting my documents
-deleting cell phone contacts
-trying to scuper my plans to get away for a few days

I`ve ignored most of the above taunts and found they lost their power for H when I did that(I did insist on staying in my bedroom though-and invited him to return to it if he wished)

The one thing H can get me on is the kids. Threatening to tell them "all about us" is something he has done in the past. He knows I am afraid of that because I know just how devastating it would be for them to hear of S in that way.

He just really has the need to keep me in fear and/or anger. he hates that I am so calm now.

I hugely struggle with my part in all of this. What horrible part in me spawned such a horrible part in H? How can I heal that in me so that I never encounter this raging beast again?

I feel guilty then about the kids because of my part in this has stopped them from growing up in a loving family environment.

Yeah, pity party is up and running here today!

But I`m forging ahead too. Thinking of seeing lawyer this week re my separation rights and what to fight for when that topic comes up again. Thinking of being the one to bring it up! Though I know DB says not to do that.Going to my fav brother and SIl for a couple of days-just leaving a note to H to tell him we`re gone.Going to gather up receipts and statements to brace myself for the financial muddle that we`ve to unravel.

I know in my heart of hearts that I am so ready for H to tunr around and say "Hey, maybe we can work on this M and see where it takes us." It will take a miracle now to make that happen. I am praying for a miracle today.

[Fallgirl]

Finding this point just so difficult....

Spent most of last night awake and in tears. Yes, I needed to do that;I`ve been too upbeat for just too long. I know I hold the fate of my three kids in my hands and that scares me hugely. Anyway, I`ve taken the advice here and just asked H this am for clarification on what he wants (S or not)following on from Sat`s `discussion`.

That almost led to a row.

H:I`m in the same position that you were in five months ago.
FG:What was that?
H:You were on the floor pleading with me to leave
FG:You weren`t on the floor pleading with me to leave last Sat-you were standing over me threatening to choke me

H started to tremble and almost cry when he heard"what you are accusing me of". Started to get angry then but I managed to calm him and tell him it wasn`t about his anger on Sat but I wanted clarification on his position now on whether he wanted S. and if so we should proceed onto the next step.

I explained that my position had changed, that I had hope now but that I accepted if he had none and would not hold back if he wanted to S.

He got annoyed at that and tried to get me to accept that out S decision was mutual. I said S is never mutual between two people-one always wants it more than another but that I would accept his position if he wanted it.

He said a couple of times that he felt like "slumming it out here" I asked for clarification on that and he said living the way we are now, both hating each other.

I told him I don`t hate him.

I said he could see that I had changed over the last few months(yipee!) but that that was no good because I had only changed for me(huh?) and not for us.That in our R I was the same.(ok someone explain that one to me...) And anyhow, while he was happy for me that I had changed that he hasn`t got it in him to change himself.

I asked if I should proceed with making an appt for mediation(for agreeing terms of S) now. He acknowledged that while he didn`t go to our first attempt at mediation a few months ago that he would now and yes, for me to proceed.He said that, knowing appt for the free mediation service here take 3-4 mths but I threw a spanner in the works, I said I could get a private legal mediator a lot quicker and it would be better to go for that one.

H baulked at that. Asked how much that would cost, I said I didn`t know. I know money isn`t an issue for him-the speed of our proceeding is.

I`m going down to my brothers for a couple of days and before he left H started his usual-why don`t you stay down there for a week nonsense and getting angry again as he was heading off to work. I did my fingers in ears thing and, when he stopped, then said"Look, in friendship H, I`m asking you to just go and enjoy you day"

My reading of the above is that H is still stuck.He`s stuck in anger(for which he blames me) and indecision. He feeds his anger off my getting angry or upset(didn`t get that today either) He feeds his indecision off my taking control(which historically I have done).

This morning I`ve made it very clear that he is perfectly free to make his own decision on S, that I will not hold him back or make it hard for him to stay.

He was very emotional this am. Because I caught him unawares he didn`t have time to build up a head of steam but instead showed more of his hurt side.I expect he will cry on the way to work. He needs to.


I`ve been thinking a lot about enabling. My role in enabling H`s anger.Even calm me gets H angry. I think moving towards S is necessary as he needs to think about it as something real, not just out there, and all the negatives that go with that. He may even need to be sitting on an orange crate in his rented appt to get what he has lost.And to begin dealing with his anger. He has truly morphed into his Dad.No, that`s not good news.

Okay, folks, any advice on next step?

I feel like letting the dust settle and seeing what H will be like when I return. Won`t see him till Weds evening. So some questions:-
Should I have mediator appt ready and bring it up then?
Or let the dust settle a little longer?
Living with H`s anger is very draining so maybe his leaving would be the best thing to force change?
Is there anything else I can say or do to unstick him?
Am I working LRT properly?

Would appreciate input on ANY of above questions.

[Dawn of Hope]

FG,
Good grief. He is spinning faster than an ice skater doing pirouettes. Have you read "Midlife for Dummies" on this forum? Most of the stuff you posted about what he says and does is mentioned in there. WAS wants to pretend that the decision for separation was mutual, doesn't believe your changes are real and lasting, yadda yadda yadda. <yawn> It's all in the MLC script.

The one thing H can get me on is the kids. Threatening to tell them "all about us" is something he has done in the past. He knows I am afraid of that because I know just how devastating it would be for them to hear of S in that way

I never offer advice on kids, not having had any and therefore not feeling qualified, but I will say that you do not have control over what/when/how he chooses to tell them. You can pre-empt him by telling them yourself in whatever way you choose, or you can make requests (preferably only if he brings up the issue), but remember, you CANNOT control him. All you can do is plan your damage control if he does something other than what you hope for here. Think about this: what are your available options here?

Next topic: I am not an advocate of bringing up separation or encouraging it in any way, but I know not everyone here feels the same way. Even though I know that for me it is more peaceful without my H living here and rubbing my nose in his...stuff...every day, I never felt good about the prospect of telling him he needed to make a decision to stay and work on M (and give up OW) or move out. I am still convinced that if I had told him that, pushed the issue, he would have worked it around in his mind and ended up blaming me for "forcing" him to leave his home. Ultimatums can be very tricky, and it sounds like that is where you are headed because you have brought it (separation) up.

If I were in your position, I would stop bringing up separation at all or taking any action toward it (i.e. mediator). If/when he brings it up, I would simply say that it isn't what I want, but it is entirely his choice. Then stop, and don't say anything further about it, just repeat what you said as needed. However, that is my preference, and other posters may have a different opinion on the best course of action, which is fine. I don't think this is a totally clear-cut issue.

I`ve been thinking a lot about enabling. My role in enabling H`s anger.Even calm me gets H angry.

NO. He gets himself angry. Yes, you need to stop anything you are doing that would encourage legitimate anger--it would be unkind and irresponsible to neglect this step on your part--but as a rule, his emotions are his responsibility.

I think moving towards S is necessary as he needs to think about it as something real, not just out there, and all the negatives that go with that. He may even need to be sitting on an orange crate in his rented appt to get what he has lost.And to begin dealing with his anger.

Perhaps. But if you "help" him out the door (although you may believe you are doing nothing of the sort, I believe that bringing it up at all, making mediator appointments, and so on, does "pressure" him), he will focus more of his energy on resenting you for "forcing" him out, IMHO.

Okay, folks, any advice on next step?

I feel like letting the dust settle and seeing what H will be like when I return. Won`t see him till Weds evening. So some questions:-
Should I have mediator appt ready and bring it up then?
Or let the dust settle a little longer?

Leave it alone entirely...see above.

Living with H`s anger is very draining so maybe his leaving would be the best thing to force change?

Understood that it is draining. We have all been there. But if he leaves, it needs to be clear TO HIM that it is his choice. I think I've made my point on this, so won't yammer further.

Is there anything else I can say or do to unstick him?

Sure. If you are ready to write off your M entirely, you can easily firebomb it and eliminate the whole egg, not just the eggshells you have been tippytoeing on. If, however, you still have hopes of reconciliation, you need to remember that this is on HIS timetable, not yours, and you can only make it WORSE by your actions...not better.

Am I working LRT properly?

I don't feel qualified to answer this one. Snodderly?

I hope this helps. Wishing you the best...

Peace,
Dawn

[Storm Rider]

Hey Fallgirl,

I think your instincts have been pretty good and you should keep folowing those. I don't have advice for you per say, but had a very similar conversation about three months ago, so offer the following comments in that context:

- this is one of many ongoing conversations you are having, its not the ONE conversation which will make or break things.

- Let the dust settle. I followed up too soon and did not need to. Soemtimes you go to extremes and things swing back.

- Having this conversation and agreeing in detail what would happen was a huge pressure valve release for us. We connected further after the conversation as what else was there to fear?

- Having such a convesation moves your relationship from the house to H having a second foot out the door. Its a lot of extra steps to move back in the other direction again, so you end up in a further room to move out of to improve things again.

- I can't think of what else could unstick him. I went down the same path for a similar reason. Can you be happy in a life without H? Thats the no expectation path you will be on.

- I should have said stuff like " If YOU choose to move out" rather than "I agree to end things" putting it all clearly onto him.

- make sure anything you say is not in anger, wait 24 hours etc.

Tears are good sometimes.

[cat04]

FG,

Wow you had an interesting weekend. How are you doing?

I guess it was one of those weekends. I told H last night, I think if you are going to continue to do the things you are doing it is time to find somewhere else to live. Not from anger, not from anything other than love. Love for self and son. As well as H. Of course he simply acted like I said nothing so we will see what the next few weeks bring.

On to you, reading your weekend was like reliving talks with H from more than 6 months ago. Often they don't realize how their actions look so I'm not surprised he was upset by how you saw him with the choking motions. He obviously did not realize he looked that way. Preparing yourself for what will come financially is important. Letting him know that you are not going to live like this forever is important. Yes your H, like mine, is stuck, albiet in different emotional places (your H is stuck in anger/replay, while mine is more in replay/depression/withdrawl. The anger/replay here lasted for about 26 consecutive months, if not longer so I do understand.) But even in saying what I said, I left it is his hands to make the choice for now, and I felt that was important. You have presented him with his options for the moment and I would leave things up to him for now, unless you really need him to leave for your sanity. I am going to suggest it is time for superficial contact only. At least any contact initiated from you. When they are at home, I think it takes longer for them to process things because the "source" of their problems is still in their face everyday. They do not get the chance to experience, truly experience, the freedom they think they want and need. So it takes longer for them to process everything.

You said something about not acting as if anymore and I want to warn you slightly that you will probably get more grief at first because you are not being friendly. Every time I try to pull back, I get some sort of comment. Some sort of garbage, but I realize this as a pursuit/distance sort of dance and I'm done playing that anymore. Hence the conversation last night. So yes it is now time to let the dust settle. It will.

Only you can decide what you can live with and you are doing well.

[Fallgirl]

Okay, friends, I`m going to let the dust settle. I have to pook at the positives from this:

H knows I`m not afraid of the S step so he can`t hang that over me.
He knows I`m not afraid to challenge him for intimidating me
He knows I`ll always stick my fingers in my ears if he starts ranting!
He knows I`ve researched S-at least to a degree.
He knows I don`t hate him
He has acknowledged that I have changes.
He knows I can keep my cool.

Dawn
thanks for you very extensive and insightful post-esp the bit about not being able to control what H says to the kids;important for me to realise that and to settle for damage limitation if need be.

The only reason I brought up S this morning is because H brought it up as a given on Sat and I wanted to clarify what his position was on it and remind him what mine was("I don`t want S but if that`s what you want I won`t stop you either")

Storm

Yes, I`m glad I took the fear factor out of S for me. I wanted H to see that I wasn`t afraid to go there so he couldn`t hang it over me and also that it was his decision to make.

Cat

Sorry to hear about your weekend! Yes, I don`t know how long this type of situation is tolerable. The things that help me most are having fun, having friends and investing in a vibrator!

But still, there are times of deepest despair and loneliness. I thought you two were doing better lately. Hope the weekend is just a temporary set back.

Does your H have difficulties relating to others?

Thanks for your wise words folks!

[cat04]

Honey,

You crack me up. Thanks for being sorry about my weekend but I have to say that I'm not. I have allowed H to cake eat for way too long and even though we have had some good conversations about things, he is stuck, stuck, stuck, or moving slower than the slowest snail in the world. And I have been allowing him to stay stuck while I have been concentrating on me, because I was not strong enough to say what I needed to say. I convinced myself that if I said those things it would be out of anger and frustration. When they came out of my mouth, I was as surprised as anyone I think. But please understand, it wasn't an angry I'm done sort of thing. It was more a if this is how you choose to live, I choose not to accept it anymore. But I'm not going to argue about it either because you will do what you want to do.

Like Dawn, I have not been a big advocate of separation because I do believe it can make it ultimately harder for them to come back if they decide they want to, although I too am much more relaxed when he is not around. But I do think that making him aware that I will not continue to live like this forever is important and actually much more mature than how he behaved which was to say one day, I'm done and there will be no discussion but I'm not going anywhere and this is how you will live now.

So ultimately, the decision lies with him. He can choose to see nothing and process nothing and continue making the choices that he is making and that is up to him. Or he will process what I said, which was basically, no more doormat, no more cake eating, and he will get himself unstuck. I don't expect him to do it overnight. I don't really expect him to get unstuck at all but I am no longer going to remain stuck with him. So this may just totally blow up in my face and result in what I don't want, but if it does, then I know it will be for the best. Somehow I don't feel like that will happen, or maybe I just don't care anymore not really sure.

So what does my H know?

-I will not live like this forever.
-I am not afraid anymore.
-I will not be at his mercy anymore.
-Although I do not agree with his choices, they are his choices, but I will make choices as well.
-He is not the ruler of the universe (sorry had to throw that one in for fun lol)

You crack me up talking about the vibrator. I am beginning to think I may have to invest in a new one myself. LOL.

And yes, if you can't tell by my reply, my H has difficulty relating to others. He thinks he is the king and we are all his peons and that what he says goes. Not an MLC trait, a life trait. But that is one of my 180's. When he issues an edict now, instead of working out the details, if he really wants it done I let him work out the details.

Ok now having a not so sure I did the right thing moment, so I will ask you all to bear with me for the near future.