Divorce not busted 2

[givingitmyall]

Can't say I am 100% there, but the strides I have made towards detaching sure have allowed me to see my MR and my W much more objectively. It's funny how you can recognize negatives in the MR adn in your spouse from a more detached POV. Leads to questionslike "Why in the he!! did I (a) not see that and (b) put up with that?"

Long road to detachment, but I think I'm on it.

[sandi2]

Okie-dokie…well I seem to have started a couple of minds and post-stirring (lol). First, let me say that my intent is not to argue about what I’ve said, but I do want to be “understood” in what I said. That's an old fault of mine. So with that in mind I went back to reread my own posts after being so surprised at how Faithful (and maybe some others) interpreted it. I wanted to know if I made that big of a mess out of things. BTW, I welcome different POV on some matters b/c it causes me to stop and ponder more deeply about it and try to think of a different “possibility”. I don’t want you to feel that I was implying that “One Size Fits All”.

I have learned to inject words like “most”, “some”, “at times”, “occasionally”, “often”, “many” (do I need to continue?) and other words--so as to express the idea that I am not making it a “One Size Fits All” since we know how a lot of members analyze our posts (lol). How boring would it be on this board if there was one POV and nobody had something different to say? I can, however, see how frustrating it could be for Newcomers. But, back to what Faithful pointed out:

“How big is your sample size? Up until 6 months ago when I moved from CT to Dallas, I regularly (at least once a month) met with 15-20 men who speak of their unconditional love for their WAW's. I am still in daily contact with many of them. These men are some of the STRONGEST, INDEPENDENT men I have ever met. I think YOU might have unconditional love confused with some sort of boundariless thing that has nothing to do with unconditional love”

I thought I better look up the word “boundary” in the dictionary, to make sure I had not gone all my life mistaken about its definition. It says that it is something that indicates a border or limit. So, isn’t that like drawing a line in the sand and saying, “Don’t cross this line”? Isn’t that like putting a fence around the yard?

So then I decided to be on the safe side and go ahead and look up “unconditional” and the definition is without limits or conditions. So, would I be safe in saying that unconditional love cannot be earned nor is it deserved?

I don’t think I ever said that it never takes strong, independent people to love unconditionally. I regret that you took what I said the wrong way.

“I find it interesting to see how many people who are very clingy, needy, and co-dependent are the ones who usually say this.”

I used the words “how many” and “usually” and did not mean to imply they were a “One Size Fits All”.

Okay, now to the next part. (BTW, Faithful, I am not arguing with you either…just want you and some others here to understand what I said and then if you disagree, that’s fine.)

Let me add this quote before the other one in order to tie it in with the definitions of the two words of “boundary” and “unconditional”.

“maybe there is a good blend of strong boundaries and unconditional love.”

My question is how can you blend what has limits and what is limitless??? How could the two go hand in hand without there being a contradiction?

Okay, for the last quote:

“...it made me wonder why you think "nice & sweet" are the opposite of "strength & power"? Why not "Nice and sweet AND strong and powerful"? If I had displayed some of the behaviors that you said you wished your H showed....I can almost guarantee my W would have continued her run towards the D.”

Orich and his wife make me think of my H and I in our early years of M. I wanted to show Orich how much like him my H used to be and how I reacted to Mr. Nice Guy. I probably did not do a very good job of telling my story about my nice & sweet guy, but I treated my H as if he were “weak” b/c that was how I interpreted his “nice & sweet” treatment of me. It took him standing up to me for me to see his strength. In other men, I can see their nice & sweet ways as being strong & powerful, but I didn’t in my own H. I took advantage of my own H b/c it was not attractive to me at the time b/c I did want to see something different…yes, opposite from what I was seeing displayed in him. That is not to say that a strong, powerful, independent man cannot be nice and sweet. I’m not saying the definition is opposite, but I’m saying that the characteristics are often “seen” as being opposite and I think that nice & sweet people are tested by others b/c they are often misjudged as being “soft”. The strength comes from within. That was what I had to learn about my own H, but I was blinded by my own evaluation of what his traits were. Instead of respecting his nice, sweet ways and seeing him as being strong & powerful… I saw him as being weak. The whole point is that I did not respect him and that is what I wanted to try to get across to Orich. I was not attracted to my H b/c in his nice & sweet ways, he allowed me to walk all over him. I could say anything and he would sit there with his head down or else stare at the TV and not say a word. Maybe some women can respect this, but I was not one who could. It is hard for me to see how any woman could, but that's IMHO. I never wanted my H to get physical or act abusive in any way, but I think I needed him to be man enough to at least fight back at me when I was such a b!tch. And you guys don’t jump on me for using that expression…”man enough” b/c you know what I mean (and I won’t take it back!)

Orich, to you and Pigskin let me say this, I realize that both of you are confused about what to do in your stitch. Both of you are nice men who love their W’s very much. As far as I can tell, your W’s are blessed to have you. The problem is…the W’s don’t know that! Yes, there are many POV here on the board and some even clash with a few of the DR book’s techniques. Sometimes we may get so caught up in standing our ground to the point of almost forgetting why we are here. Then we see a Newcomer’s frustration at finding the right solution, and it quickly reminds us of what this board is all about. Orich, you are right. You should be able to come here to vent. However, as I’ve told some others, you need to let it be known that you are just venting or journaling so that members will realize that you aren’t looking for input, but you are letting off steam. (That is not just Orich, but anybody.)

So, I won’t keep on with this and will give space to somebody else to give advice to Orich. I mainly wanted to clear up any confusion or misinterpretations of my posts.

[FaithfulH]

Thanks, Sandi2! I understand your POV better now. I want to respond to your question:

Quote:
“maybe there is a good blend of strong boundaries and unconditional love.”

My question is how can you blend what has limits and what is limitless??? How could the two go hand in hand without there being a contradiction?

Unconditional love is about what you give to another person while boundaries define what you allow them to give (do) to you. I see no contradiction in showing a spouse limitless love but saying you will not sit idly by while they are abusive, for example. When a parent disciplines a child for stepping over a line (violating a boundary) does the parent withdraw their love? Of course not.

I'm done! Good night all!

[antlers]

“maybe there is a good blend of strong boundaries and unconditional love.”

My question is how can you blend what has limits and what is limitless??? How could the two go hand in hand without there being a contradiction?

Unconditional love is about what you give to another person while boundaries define what you allow them to give (do) to you. I see no contradiction in showing a spouse limitless love but saying you will not sit idly by while they are abusive, for example. When a parent disciplines a child for stepping over a line (violating a boundary) does the parent withdraw their love? Of course not.




Outstanding! And well put, FaithfulH!

[Orich]

If I may retrieve my post here for a minute...
At least one positive, last night the woman who runs our annual block party came by to give us the date of this years party. We look forward to this party every year, longer for W as we live on the block she grew up on. She has been going to it since she was little. Anyway, it turns out that it is the Saturday we will be attending Retrouvaille. W told the woman we wouldn't be able to make it, that we would be away.
I had a slight fear that if the block party was that weekend, she would cancel the Retro. So, that was good to hear.
Also, it was the bday party for my older son. We worked well together, just like at our other boy's party. We had rented a giant inflatable slide, and after the kids went home, we both gave it a try along with my mom and dad, and had a really good laugh!
It was nice to see her smiling and laughing doing something with me, not laughing on the phone with other people.

[cat04]

Orich,

So glad to hear about Retroville. I hope you both take good things away from it.

Listen, I want to second Sandi on the respect thing and how people interperate things differently. She is careful to say in her situation she had difficulty respecting her H because she saw his sweet and nice as weakness. IMO, if more women were really honest with themselves, they would also say they feel that way. I know I lost respect for my H for the same reasons. Society has skewed the male/female lines so much in the last couple of decades and women have shown they have strength and are capable of more than housework and we have said that we want men to be more feeling. I do not thing any of that is bad or untrue. But we still, underneath it, want a man who shows confidence, strength, who is willing to lead but not dictate. And if men were honest, they might also say, yes we want women to be strong and empowered, BUT we still want them to nurture, take care of the home, the kids, and be the support system. It is the natural and ordained order of things, whether we want to admit it or not. If we really sit and look at things from an outsiders POV, we can see how the roles have reversed, mixed themselves up, and no one really knows (for lack of a better term) WHO wears the pants anymore. Just MOP.

[sandi2]

Hummm, I sent a post but it didn't go through, so I'll try one more time. I'm glad to hear about the party's success. I think your W is in her element when she's doing that. I also think that keeping the laughter going is more important, at this point in the stitch, than trying to find times to be alone and intimate. She obviouly doesn't want to be alone, so work at this through playing with the children (as you have been doing), watching funny movies as a family, playing with pets, playing games as a family, being with other upbeat people and environments. I believe that helped me in opening my heart little by little toward my H.

Having a PMA doesn’t mean to act like a person who has lot their marbles and is stupidly “happy” when their M and family is obviously falling apart, but to do like you’ve been doing Orich. You’ve played with your children, which always touches a W’s heart while maintaining a solid R with your kids. You try to keep the conversation away from touchy areas in the R at this time. You keep a PMA without acting like a “clown” IMHO and that is what the DR teaches. Just as being detached is about pulling back from her but not acting all cold and closed mouth to give the impression you are mad, but rather do it in a loving way and maintain your PMA while you distract. That may sound as contradictive to you as the other subjects of late has sounded to me (lol) but I hope not. I also hope that my best advice (such as it is) is from the POV of a WAW, while the majority of people are other LBS and they can help guide you from that angle. I know it “is” a fine balancing act. I is very difficult and that is why I said that “you” know what sounds what you can or can’t do. But at the same time Orich, remember that we are too close to our own personal stitch and others can see things about us and what we are doing right or wrong better than we can. I also remember what I use to be told and it would get me every time he said this, but it was true. You are the only one from your stitch that is here on the board. We only have your side of the story and you are the only one we can talk to. If she was here, then we could talk to her and here her side. So, that is one reason you get to feeling like you are bombarded with different opinions and feel that you can’t do anything right. I don’t see any MAJOR mistakes you have made, but neither do I want you to make any and that is why I comment on the little things like you buying an anniversary card or trying to make a dinner date, etc. Just don’t let us here on the board be the ones to get you flustered b/c you have enough to deal with. Take what you can and what seems right and you can do. What you can’t do, put on a back burner to ponder on it. You can consider what everyone says, but I doubt you can do every thing that is suggested since it varies so much. I hope you will take this weekend to regroup and maybe even take a couple days off from the board since you sound so frustrated. Heck, we could frustrate the Pope! (No disrespect intended.)
Take care and have a good weekend, Orich!

[sandi2]

I also wanted to thank FaithfulH and Antlers for their take on the subject of boundaries and unconditional love.

[FaithfulH]

...and, Sandi2, thanks to you for bringing your unique perspective! There aren't many former WAW's here so that is VERY helpful...and us guys also need to hear the voice of you and other ladies too! Unfortunately, that whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" deal is too real! God has a great sense of humor, huh? But then what a boring place it would be if we were all alike!

[FaithfulH]

Wow....and I finally broke 1000 posts...on Orich's thread!

Orich, I hope you don't view some of our sidebars as hijacking! No intent to do that!

Have a great day!