Quote: I do not believe that kids prevent the dissolution of a marriage. I know what kinds of man/father I am, and can separate my marriage from my responsibilities as a father.
I gotta bite on this one. Of course it is just my opinion...but what kind of man/father you know you are, and what your child will perceive as a heart-ripped-out-of-your-chest seperation when you leave the house are two different things. Plus, a father being absent from the home causes all sorts of long term scars and challenges to normal development, sense of trust, sense of security, etc. A father showing up for dinner one night a week and every other weekend is not an ideal family situation, and has absoutely nothing to do with what kind of man you are.
Yes, it can be done, and often is. But once you (the perverbial you, not you personally) leave your marriage, you are going to lose an enormous amount of say in the upbringing of the child, discipline, who enters the child's life, what kind of influence that new person will have... a step-parent will never love your child the way you do. And even if your ex happens to marry a real swell person, it introduces all sorts of lovely guilt factors for the child to have to deal with -- loyalty to original parents vs. loyalty to the new person; different sets of expectations; playing one family against another; never feeling really 'at home' in anyone's house; oh hey, having step brothers and sisters gets interesting, too. Fights are never resolved to anyone's satisfaction; then there's the adjustments to potential steps, sharing stuff, having to be 'nice' so we can all get along; sometimes sharing vacations, sometimes not; the perceived preferrencial treatment.
Then there's always the times when you're not there to read the bedtime stories, tuck-ins, meaningful talks, seeing the 'firsts,' holidays... boy-howdy does THAT get fun. Who's house are we going to be at THIS year, and won't daddy or mommy be lonely without us?
Oh, and then, this is really, really lovely for all involved... when the one parent has to LEAVE and say good-bye. Now granted, by the time the child has reached teen-age years, they've gotten really good at suppressing their tears and anguish, and most related anger... but guilt never seems to leave the adult heart. And if it has, that is a heart that has gotten very closed.
That's just if everyone plays nice with each other and tries to get along. It gets REALLY fun when one spouse or the other carries lingering resentment and anger and actually fills the child's head with all sorts of nasty opinions about the other spouse. On top of THAT, let's say one or the other spouse marries a complete ASS... one who yells at your child, SPANKS them, becomes verbally abusive, or worse... oh the list of endless possiblities goes on and on. Oh hey, when one spouse or the other has to move out of state... that's always a great one to deal with.
I'm not advocating sticking around in a sexless marriage for the rest of your life, I just think that when children enter the picture, the commitment two people made to have the children in the first place supercedes all other needs. It's not forever. And in the meantime, you can still get to work at overcoming your problem.
I don't think you can compare this to abusive situations. Physical safety is often involved in something like that. I think sexless marriages are emotionally abusive, yes, but typically not for the children involved.
Do I think that all marriages should stay together when children are involved? No. But before getting out, you need to be absolutely certain that your needs outweigh those of your children, and only through divorce will you be able to create a better life for your child.
Just my opinion, and it certainly does not cover all instances.
Corri, you covered all the bases and made your argument well. Divorce, in my opinion is not an option when children are involved unless there is physical or abusive behaviors that directly involve the children.
cloudnine, you need to find better justification for breaking up your children's home than not getting regular sex. Your children are going to ask you why. When you sit them down and tell them that your participation in their lives is about to change drastically they are going to want to know answers. If you believe that they are going to feel willing to suffer the kind of pain they are going to suffer just so you can have regular sex then you have not thought it through. My ex is fond of saying he divorced me and not the kids. Funny thing is though, the kids felt that he had chosen to leave them also.
Although it may feel as if I am berating you that is not my intent. I'm giving you the bottom line...divorce is no longer about you and your wife. The ones in your divorce who would suffer the greatest loss and emotional pain are your children.
If I had to live the rest of my life without sex I would make that choice if it would mean taking away the pain my children have suffered. There are two things you have to think about when weighing your options in the matter. Which is more important to me as a man and a father...my sex life or my children's emotional well-being? That, is the bottom line. Sorry Cathy
Corri has a nack for painting a picture, but it seems like an incredibly presumptuous one. Like she has a crystal ball and has it all figured out for me. I can respect the downside of a divorce, believe me. I think about it every single day.
I really am troubled with being accused at this site of leaving because I just want sex. It keeps going back to that, especially in the minds of certain respondents. It comes down to being wanted, being loved, being respected. When the children are grown, what do we have left?....nothing. She does not respect me enough to meet her end of the bargain, a bargain she struck in therapy. She has no respect for me, and shows it. That is what I would tell my kids, when they are old enough to understand it, or better yet, let their mom tell them. For the sake of our kids, she could meet some basic needs of mine, and therefore have a much better chance of keeping a man around the house...a happy, contented man, whose happiness now fills the life of his family because he is being respected. DO YOU GET IT NOW? And as for sex.....so, I want sex with my wife?! Big deal!! I must be such a friggin' PIG! Men need sex more than women, if I may make a generalization. If you want to marry a man, and expect him to be monogamous, you will need to satisfy his sexual appetite, within reason. If you don't, who will you want him to have sex with? You can't have it both ways. I am truly concerned that I will cheat on my wife if this continues. My integrity is on the line, and I would rather leave than get caught cheating and be known as an adulterer. I want a monogamous relationship, but can't seem to have one where I'm at. So, what's the advice now?
This is why I have such trouble with this site. People here don't know me, my relatioship, my character....nothing. Their advice can only be presented thru the prism of their own pain. From what Cathy has told me of her ex, he doesn't deserve the title of *father*. He is a despicable man to me. But, there is probably more to the story, too much for Cathy to lay out for me, or anyone else here. There are nuances to relationships that are impossible to communicate. So, it comes down to the individuals involved, and following our instincts. Is it a selfish decision to leave? Sure it is. But I would hate to make some decision to stay, then have my daughters look at me when I say later to them *I stayed for YOU*, and have them respond...*Why?*. That is a scenario that can just as easily occur.
I agree with you. I don't think that leaving due to lack of sex is ridiculous. As you said, it is better than cheating. I have never understood the "You can't have sex with me, but you can't have sex with anyone else either" argument. It's time for your wife to step up to the plate, or let you go. Plain and simple.
I find this thread very interesting. A board full of people doing all they can to hold their marriages together are discussing the merits of divorce.
Quote: Corri has a nack for painting a picture, but it seems like an incredibly presumptuous one. Like she has a crystal ball and has it all figured out for me. I can respect the downside of a divorce, believe me.
I did not see a crystal ball there. It sounds more like a photo album.
Sir, you seem to seek the opinions of others, yet become very defensive and claim people don't 'know' you when perhaps they say things you do not wish to hear.
Of course we users and lurkers of these boards do not 'know' you, only what you choose to share. You are facing a very difficult decision, and I do not believe anyone is judging you for it. It seems to me they just want to make sure you examine it from all angles before you leap.
Staying together in a marriage for the sake of the kids does not guarentee they will grown up any more normal than if you choose to leave the house. The variable, however, is that if you do leave, your child's chances of encountering life long struggles will signficantly increase.
You seem to be a person caught betwix and between. That is good. It shows you have a conscience. Perhaps you should reconsider the effectiveness of therapy, however, and return for a greater length of time to make absolutely certain you have done all you can. You are the strong one in your relationship, yes? So your wife is not so strong as you. Building strength takes time. Take her back and call her on her broken promises. Some people can breeze through therapy in three months and find their answers. But for most, it takes much more time, and it takes a spouse who is not willing to accept broken promises, but can find it in their hearts to forgive them.
You'll notice the beginning of this thread was a question, which I answered. If I am challenged, which I later was, I will respond. If someone engages me in an argument, I shouldn't be accused of being argumentative.
Trust that I do appreciate all the advice that is offered here. I struggle with this daily, even hourly. It is not a situation that I take lightly. The info I get here, even if I counter it, is taken to heart and filtered thru my current experience. This is something that should be struggled with.
I did not call you argumentative, I said you seemed to become defensive when other's opinions do not match your own. That is all. It is simply an indication that your emotions are very close to the surface, and who can blame you. I just caution you that in an attempt to emotionally survive a divorce, you will close down your heart for a time. It is difficult to be selective on what and whom you close out, and children are often included in being shut out. Certainly not because you intend to hurt them, but only because you will be in survive and recover mode.
So what of my suggestion in returning to therapy with your wife? It sounds as though she is aware there is a problem, but is either unable or unwilling to address it. Sometimes continued therapy forces a spouse to remain accountable for their actions because there is a third party involved who has no emotional investment in the outcome. Kind of like weighing in at weight watchers... people tend to stick to the diet because they know that scale doesn't lie.
Continued therapy might also help you deal with the understandable anger you have. It may be a constructive way for you to express it without her feeling like your 'at it again,' you see?
Now certainly if you feel you are beyond the point of anything helping, then returning to therapy could assist the two of you in dealing with your approaching seperation and divorce.
It is just a suggestion. It is, however, an avenue for you to take action, rather than beating your head against a wall and feeling you have no one who can hear you.
Hi O unargumentative one who never argues at all, oh no no no. I don't know what your job is but I am inclined to believe you shoulda been a barrister.
However I am in agreement with you over most of it. Whether or not to get a divorce is up to you and no one has a right to make a moral judgement over that, since they are not in your shoes. Of course this is not a decision to be taken lightly. If there is only one major sticking point it becomes even more vital to make a big effort to sort things out. Especially if there are kids involved.
I take it you have followed the advice in SSM, been to counselling, spoken clearly to your W in a way she can understand, given her plenty of time not expecting any miracles ect. Still she continues to be completely uncooperative. You must be clear in your mind that this is so. Is there anything else you could have done. Have you given her enough time and support to change, have you recognised those baby steps of improvement if they were there.
I also agree with you that it is not really just about sex. It is the complete lack of regard for your feeling which is a problem. I'm sure that if you felt your W was making a sincere effort to change, but she was not doing that brilliantly you would not be considering a D right now. For example when I talked to my H about all this he was very nice and understood why I felt that way and he promised to work on it. So far there has not been much progress but I feel a lot better knowing that he cares, and I am sure that with time the sitch will improve. So I think that is the difference between us. You clearly do not feel that at present, and you have been trying for a lot longer than me as well.
I don't know if you read Granite Rose's thread where I was chatting to her about depression. I asked my Mother, who is a mental nurse working in a hospital, what were her thoughts on using medication for depression. One of the things she told me is that the cases they have in who do not seem to improve are those who are in a bad situation but are not willing or able to do anything about it. A specific example she gave me was someone in a bad marriage who will not end it because they fear being alone. I don't think you fear being alone, but my point is that being in a bad marriage indefinately is very bad for you and your mental health.
In my opinion D is not good for kids, but nor is an unhappy household. Having divorced parents these days is not entirely uncommon. The important thing is that they should not suffer financially, they should see you both on a regular basis and you should not move far away from them so they cannot easily visit. They must feel that you both still love them as much as ever and the divorce is nothing to do with them. If you remarry you must ensure that your new partner cares for your kids and treats them very well.
Before you do file for D I think you should have a serious talk with your wife telling her what you plan to do. Try not to put it as an ultimatum, but more just telling her how you feel. If she does seem to want to try again I think you should give her another chance, but she must be willing to do those thing you feel would really change your mind. Work out what these are in advance, being fair but honest. I mean you can't suddenly expect her to start having wonderful sex with you 3 times a day! (if only!!!!!!!) but you must say what you need.
I know you and Corri loved to hate each other but she often talked about having boundaries. I interprete this to mean that there is only so far you will go and then you stop. I would not accept an abusive marriage and I would end a marriage if my partner had a damaging addiction which they refused to do anything about. To be honest I'm not sure if I would end my M if my H was completely unwilling or unable to do anything about a lack of sex and it would depend on the circumstances. I think it all boils down to how unhappy you are, and whether your spouse cares enough to help.
Well I hope I don't get kicked off the divorce busting message board for saying all this in favour of divorce. You can see I am not generally in favour of divorce, but marriage is a two way street in my opinion. Yes you have to work hard for your M and sometimes you have to go beyond the call of duty. But there has to be at least some positive imput from your spouse or it won't work out. Someone said on here once that you should realise that after a divorce it will take at least a year of difficult often painful work to rebuild your life, well if that has started looking like a really attractive option you should go ahead. But first be sure you have really explored every avenue to improve your M and given your wife all the chances you can stand.
Good Luck and I hope things work out well for you.
It comes down to being wanted, being loved, being respected. When the children are grown, what do we have left?....nothing. She does not respect me enough to meet her end of the bargain, a bargain she struck in therapy. She has no respect for me, and shows it. For the sake of our kids, she could meet some basic needs of mine, and therefore have a much better chance of keeping a man around the house...a happy, contented man, whose happiness now fills the life of his family because he is being respected. DO YOU GET IT NOW? And as for sex.....so, I want sex with my wife?! Big deal!! I must be such a friggin' PIG! If you want to marry a man, and expect him to be monogamous, you will need to satisfy his sexual appetite, within reason. If you don't, who will you want him to have sex with? You can't have it both ways.
Yeah we get chidded, people forget many of these LD break their vows too us to love, honor, and to forsake all others. All others are the job, her mother, sister friends and yes even the children!!! Like I told our MC when she ask what I saw was the problem.I said, that her priorties were all screwed up. How does it help you children for a W to negelct your R for anything else? If you have a strong R then the children while have very good existance. If one of the spouses puts even the children ahead of the Realtionship that spouse is tearing away at the foundation of the R. Cloudnine isn't being selfish because his needs aren't being met, his W is being selfish. This extends beyond sex but includes it. Example, my wife wanted to go to a family gathering and there was a posibility of a siti with her mother and a sister of a nasty confrontation, infact some family members refused to show because of it. I offered to go for support, then a few months later having forgot about my offered I said I didn't want to go. My W reminded me of the offer so I agree I should go. She offered to "let me off the hook" but I insisted I needed to go, did I want to ....no. I went because she needed the support in the situation. Is that selfish of her to "need the support", I don't think so. It would have been selfish of me to not go because I didn't want too. We all NEED TO DO things we rather not for those we love. That is what a PARTERSHIP is about. That means if your wife likes to dance do you dance with her, even if you really rather not no you dance. It also to be crude PUT OUT when you need too. Does that mean you have to do it 3-4 times a day, no. You may not dance the night away but you dance a reasonable amount to make her feel good and she should lay you to make you feel good.
Dear Cloudnine, Most of us can talk ourselves into most anything...We can justify most any behavior and minimize the pain and suffering that OUR actions cause others. Handy, isn't it?
If you believe that divorcing will end up benefitting your children in ANY way, you are not facing facts and only justifying what you want to do.
Michele has often said something that sticks with me: Don't stay in an unhappy marriage for the sake of your children. Make your marriage happy...for the sake of your children (and I might add, for yourself and your spouse.)
There can be lots and lots of reasons for low sex drive. Could be medical, depression, history of child sexual abuse , guilt......it can also be withholding to punish you for something she needs.
You say that she promised to do better in counseling but hasn't come through and that shows she disrespects you? I'm sure that is how it FEELS to you, but I wonder what it is about with her? Did that come out in counseling? WHY she doesn't feel sexual desire for you? I honestly doubt it is that she doesn't respect you. It could more easily be she doesn't trust you. Lots of times the experts say that withholding sex (if that is what it is) is a childhood response pattern to feeling controlled or deep anger and resentment in the power struggle (the part of marriage that comes after the falling in love passion part.)
Anyway, I applaud you for coming here to learn. Please don't take our comments as criticisms...they are less that than they are warnings that precious little hearts can be broken so easily and never repaired. and all the justifications in the world don't help these children of divorce.
Tell your wife you LOVE her deeply and you are sorry if it is something that you have done or not done that is troubling her BUT that you need the closeness, the sharing that you once had and the rejection you feel when she can't make love to you is eating you up inside. Isn't there anythign that you can do or say to make it right?
and then hold her and ask her to hold you. That is my advice Cloudnine. I wish you well, I really do. gd
