Divorce not busted 2

[kara]

Sandi

You raise some interesting points. I struggle sometimes with the concept of going dark/detaching/no more Ms Nice Girl versus the Christian approach of being loving/giving the love you want to receive etc. Several things I want to note:

1. As I said before, for me, detaching and "being still" are very similar. When you are still, you leave it to God, you do not pursue, you GAL, you do many of the things that you do when "detaching". Before I even began to DB, when I prayed, all I heard was "Be still". I later realised that being still meant not arguing, pursuing, threatening, preching etc. All DB principles.

2. When DBing, you cannot fully apply the Christian principle of giving the love you want to receive because your spouse does not want that and if you do attempt it you may well be committing marital suicide. I am talking about physical and affectionate love, doing your usual favours, planning special dinners etc which your spouse sees as pursuing and DOES NOT WANT. You can "give" or "hold" love in your heart. You can love from a distance and the best way you can give that love in this situation is to pour it out in prayer to the Lord.Let him be the custodian of it. Do not express it to your S. That is what I do.

3. Unconditional love - What is this? Are humans capable of this? Jesus loves us no matter what and is concerned with repentance. He hates the actions and not the man. Perhaps when people speak of loving unconditionally this is what they mean? Hating the actions but not the person. Being forgiving. How much you can forgive depends on you. And if you depend on God, it depends on how much you depend on him.

4. Nice guys and girls finish last - There is a part of the D. Remedy, I believe, which says that going dark is not being nasty. So there is still room to be nice, upbeat etc. All within limits. I am nowhere as nice to my H as I used to be although I am a damned sight nicer to him than many people I know would be. Being nice is not being a doormat or being stupid. Jesus knew when to be firm and how to deal with nonsense. The key, I think, is to say hard things softly. You can tell it like it is without being nasty.

5. People want people who do not want them - How many of us took our M for granted even though we sensed trouble lurking somewhere. As soon as our S said they did not want us, how many of us realised "Hey. I want him/her". What you cannot have can become very attractive. The truth is most of our S believe that they have us in little boxes. They know that we want them. BY FAR the most dramatic turnaround in my sitch occured after nearly three weeks of my going dark. For the first time in a long time he probably felt I was through because my NC was that extreme. I think that a WAS has to want to SEEK out the LBS.

6. The treatment you accept - I don't think that you should take ---t and call it chocolate. Or unconditional love. There are expectations and conditions to marriage and to every relationship. We lay out what we will and will not accept. And it seems so clear cut. But reality can be a different thing. How you proceed is idfferent in every circumstance.

Oh well, the length of this post is rivalling Sandi's legendary posts. These are such fundamental and interesting questions that have been going around in my head for a while.

[C-Bart]

I think we tend to misinterpret love or unconditional love. Just because you detach from someone does not mean you stop loving them. In fact I would say that is one of the most loving things you could do. Allowing someone to treat you like cr@p is not showing love. Fear maybe. Not love. I love my children unconditionally, but that does not mean they get to behave irrationally. If I allowed them to behave in a manner that was disrespectful would I be showing them love? No I would be harming their development as people and hindering out ability to have a respectful relationship and productive family.

I loved Dr. Dodson's book on tough love. The reference Sandi made actually the women did what the husband asked with the OW. Maybe under the guise of love but it was really out of fear of loosing her H. We tend to hide behind love because it seems more noble than saying I'm scared to death of loosing my W, being alone, etc. etc.

[sandi2]

C-Bart and Kara, thanks for adding your POV. Not to take over Orich's thread on this subject, but I do feel that so many people don't fully understand about detaching or about what unconditional love is and it causing a lot of confusion for them. I have noticed that it seems that men have a particular hard time detaching without acting "cold" and that is not how we are suppose to do in DBing. We are to lovingly detach. If we act cold, then the S will simply mark it down to us being mad and it doesn't help the stitch. I wanted to add this about unconditional love and then I've got to go to work but may be back later if anything else is said about the subject.


I know God has the ability to love us and reject the sin. He can separate the two. The way I was taught that Christians should “love’ mankind (even people we didn’t know or those who were the most horrible criminals imaginable) was to think of the body and soul of a person being two separate parts. The body is the part that does the thinking and the actions…therefore the sin and ugliness comes from that part. The soul (or heart) of a person is that part that we can love and that we do not want to see their soul go to hell. I believe it is hard for us human beings to always be able to separate the two in some folks…depending on their unholy actions or how close we are to them in R. My idea of what unconditional love for another person is like a pregnant woman who knows she is carrying this precious life within her stomach. She gets all excited when she begins to feel that life move around and get bigger. An amazing thing happens during the pregnancy. That mother loves that child with all her heart. She’s not see it, and would not know if it was a boy or girl (and she didn’t really care), she doesn’t know what it’s personality will be, or who it will look like or if it will be smart and talented…..a pregnant woman doesn’t have to wait to give birth to that child to feel like a mother. Those feelings start as soon as she knows she going to have a baby. And she loves that……as Dia would say…”kidlet” will all her being and she doesn’t have any ideal what that baby may turn out to be……or even if he’ll be healthy. Every mother just prays her baby will be healthy! Unconditional love? That’s when mothers carry a baby in their body and then are told that the baby will be severely mentally retarded and physically deformed ...and yet she will not allow any doctor to perform an abortion. Why? B/c she “loves” that baby totally & completely. We know the baby didn’t do anything to earn that love, but he was just “there” and he is her baby. I love to see expecting young mothers put their protective hands across the tummy as if shielding the baby. That is love.

When it comes to a MR, how do you separate that person you are M to? I mean, you can love their souls without loving the faults, etc., but it is their attitudes, actions, character, and all of that that combines “who” they are and why we fell in love with them. If all of that changes and they are totally different, then I think we have to put them in a category with the majority of people in the world and try to love their soul but I don’t see how we could say we are going to love the other part of them unconditionally or they would make our life a living hell on earth. It’s all in how people interpret what unconditionally means. A person doesn’t earn unconditional love. A person doesn’t “deserve” unconditional love. But in a MR, those “conditions” are usually mistreated and not respected when one of the partners say they are loving unconditionally. I find it interesting to see how many people who are very clingy, needy, and co-dependent are the ones who usually say this. They will not detach b/c of their own fear and using the excuse that they are going “WWJD” thing and love like a Christian…..well, it looks like a crutch to me. That’s pretty bluntly put, and it would take too many pages to explain all of that in detail, but that’s the general idea.

[Orich]

So then which is it?
Love her and detach, but not be cold to her? That's what I thought I have been doing. We do things as a family, we watch TV together, I help her with carrying groceries in to the house, I run errands for the family. We talk, even share a laugh now and again.
Or is it what Gucci said; no card on our anniversary, don't compliment her on a nice cake she created for the kids, and don't invite her to dinner. Are we not supposed to make ourselves attractive to the WAS? Try to reconnect?
So, which is it? Seriously, tell me so I don't completely f**k this up anymore than I apparently already am.

[Steve McQueen]

So, which is it? Seriously, tell me so I don't completely f**k this up anymore than I apparently already am.

what feels most right for you?

[FaithfulH]

Re: Sandi2's comments about those that espouse unconditional love:

I find it interesting to see how many people who are very clingy, needy, and co-dependent are the ones who usually say this.

Sandi2,

How big is your sample size? Up until 6 months ago when I moved from CT to Dallas, I regularly (at least once a month) met with 15-20 men who speak of their unconditional love for their WAW's. I am still in daily contact with many of them. These men are some of the STRONGEST, INDEPENDENT men I have ever met. I think YOU might have unconditional love confused with some sort of boundariless thing that has nothing to do with unconditional love. In fact, when you wrote....

I didn’t want to see nice & sweet…I wanted to see strength & power.

...it made me wonder why you think "nice & sweet" are the opposite of "strength & power"? Why not "Nice and sweet AND strong and powerful"? If I had displayed some of the behaviors that you said you wished your H showed....I can almost guarantee my W would have continued her run towards the D. Instead, we have experience 2+ years of AMAZING restoration. What does that tell me?....I guess, one size does not fit all. Or...maybe there is a good blend of strong boundaries and unconditional love. That's what I like most about this site...the diversity of opinion. I'm not trying to spark an argument with you....just sharing a different opinion. Have a nice day!

[FaithfulH]

So then which is it?
Love her and detach, but not be cold to her?

Orich,

I think you have the right idea....love her and detach. But, also take heed of the advice you have gotten from Sandi2, Gucci, and others about not being needy and clingy. I have been following your sitch for the past couple of weeks and it seems to me you have WAY too many expectations. Specifically, your expectations about ML are hurting you IMHO. There is NO way that your W is not sensing that from you and feeling pressure. Just because she told you she regrets the letter she wrote does not mean that she is healed. You both have a LONG way to go before you will see how much healing was needed. That does not mean that you cannot have a good R soon....but, I would highly recommend you take your expectations to ZERO about ML, your R, etc. You need to stop obsessing about what you should do WITH her, TO her, or FOR her....focus on you and PLEASE give her space to sort out what SHE needs.

[Orich]

I never implied that I thought she was healed. I give her nothing but space. I never bring up R talk. She never gets any signal or implication from me that I want to ML. I try very hard to make sure she doesn't. I go to bed before or after her. I tell her she looks pretty (is that needy?) instead of "hot" or "sexy". Hell, I'm rarely in the same room with her for her to get those vibes from me anyhow. I am always playing with the kids when we are home, hardly implying I want to have sex then. I thought this forum was where we could come to vent those things with people who are in similar situations. Am I completely wrong here? Is complimenting her on her cake creation clingy? She does her party prepping, work she brought home, general other things while I do my Vespers or play a video game or something.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Sandi

You raise some interesting points. I struggle sometimes with the concept of going dark/detaching/no more Ms Nice Girl versus the Christian approach of being loving/giving the love you want to receive etc. Several things I want to note:

1. As I said before, for me, detaching and "being still" are very similar. When you are still, you leave it to God, you do not pursue, you GAL, you do many of the things that you do when "detaching". Before I even began to DB, when I prayed, all I heard was "Be still". I later realised that being still meant not arguing, pursuing, threatening, preching etc. All DB principles.

2. When DBing, you cannot fully apply the Christian principle of giving the love you want to receive because your spouse does not want that and if you do attempt it you may well be committing marital suicide. I am talking about physical and affectionate love, doing your usual favours, planning special dinners etc which your spouse sees as pursuing and DOES NOT WANT. You can "give" or "hold" love in your heart. You can love from a distance and the best way you can give that love in this situation is to pour it out in prayer to the Lord.Let him be the custodian of it. Do not express it to your S. That is what I do.

3. Unconditional love - What is this? Are humans capable of this? Jesus loves us no matter what and is concerned with repentance. He hates the actions and not the man. Perhaps when people speak of loving unconditionally this is what they mean? Hating the actions but not the person. Being forgiving. How much you can forgive depends on you. And if you depend on God, it depends on how much you depend on him.

4. Nice guys and girls finish last - There is a part of the D. Remedy, I believe, which says that going dark is not being nasty. So there is still room to be nice, upbeat etc. All within limits. I am nowhere as nice to my H as I used to be although I am a damned sight nicer to him than many people I know would be. Being nice is not being a doormat or being stupid. Jesus knew when to be firm and how to deal with nonsense. The key, I think, is to say hard things softly. You can tell it like it is without being nasty.

5. People want people who do not want them - How many of us took our M for granted even though we sensed trouble lurking somewhere. As soon as our S said they did not want us, how many of us realised "Hey. I want him/her". What you cannot have can become very attractive. The truth is most of our S believe that they have us in little boxes. They know that we want them. BY FAR the most dramatic turnaround in my sitch occured after nearly three weeks of my going dark. For the first time in a long time he probably felt I was through because my NC was that extreme. I think that a WAS has to want to SEEK out the LBS.

6. The treatment you accept - I don't think that you should take ---t and call it chocolate. Or unconditional love. There are expectations and conditions to marriage and to every relationship. We lay out what we will and will not accept. And it seems so clear cut. But reality can be a different thing. How you proceed is idfferent in every circumstance.

Oh well, the length of this post is rivalling Sandi's legendary posts. These are such fundamental and interesting questions that have been going around in my head for a while.

Kara, that may have been a LONG post, but it was also an EXCEPTIONAL one.

That is perhaps the best post I've ever read dealing with the tricky balance of "tough love" and "Christian forgiveness."

Puppy

[FaithfulH]

I thought this forum was where we could come to vent those things with people who are in similar situations.

Sorry, Orich...I thought you were looking for input.