In Limbo

[25yearsmlc]

OUCH!

This is a tough one. I ache for you and your sons...geez. When my then d9 asked if we were going to div, I'd say "I sure hope not, b/c we've been together a long time and I do love your dad" which was ALL true. Also I reassured her that IF he left for Alaska, which he did, that I'd make all my choices based on what I thought would be best for her, (my c suggested this line) and it helped her a lot. Also stressed what would NOT change in her life, such as schooling, neighborhood, etc.

In the meantime, your w is teaching your kids that losing her temper and stomping her feet ON YOU is alright, and it isn't. Not suggesting you keep on fighting, b/c you need to stand up for yourself but in a calm way. It really does project more strength.

And am suggesting if needed, you leave the room/house until she's ready to talk it out like an adult, calmly...good grief. And don't let her revise your history too much but know that you will NEVER agree on it fully.

Even now my h has forgotten or revised some things, and I had to let it go. What will matter down the road is how you both see TODAY and the future. Assuming you are not in front of the kids, and she goes on and on about how it's all your fault and she never got to grow up, blah blah blah you can tell her you'd love her to take charge of her life (Which includes taking charge of her temper), but as for the extreme revisions, say "I'm sorry you feel that way, it's not how I recall it" and leave it at that. Leave the room if you have to. She's rationalizing big time, b/c she has to. It's her time to justify and vilify and YOU are the target of that. This is text book WAS/MLC crap and all I can say is welcome to the rollercoaster, get a helmet on and wear your seatbelt. My h, with TWO medical degrees told me I "have always held him back from success"....(guess he didn't get the Nobel prize, which I FORCED him not to do??) and nope, he has no recall of saying that now...so again, forget about agreeing on the past.
Also, in case you have not heard this yet, when it comes to mid life crisis, Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. If she's in MLC and she sounds like it big time, you will have to stop worrying about each hurtful comment. I cannot tell you all of the things my h said that to me, sounded really insane. I mean, I actually asked him at one point to get a CAT scan and I was not kidding..."the gold rush I was stopping him from getting to"...wth?? "Alaska's not cold, it's BRISK"...."it's not dark all winter, you can see the stars"....(FYI, WE LIVED THERE 4 YEARS...) So um, don't sweat all the crazy stuff that comes out of her mouth. She is blurting out her pain and spewing alien spew on you. Assume she has been abducted by the MLC aliens and that the spew is something you need to duck and dart from so it doesn't hit you too much. If it does, wipe it off and move along...

But don't allow the revisions to go too far, if there's a grain of truth to it, you can concede that and say, "if I had it to do over again, I'd do some things differently" so she can see that the m can change and improve b/c you concede SOME things you would in fact do differently. That shows growth and insight on your part without being weak. It's sometimes a fine line...in some ways, she sounds so spoiled I almost wonder if she needs you to really stand up to her, but I don't know her so who knows?

At one point I told my h, "I'm willing to own my part in this, b/c I WOULD do some things differently, but I will NOT play the blame game. It's really unfair and it's very inaccurate". He usually stopped spiraling then. Usually, not always.

I'm hearing some wackiness on her end that you don't have to put up with. Be strong but do not lose your temper with her if at all possible. Lose the anger at least in front of her. I know that's hard, like Mother Teresa hard, but it 's so important.

If I lost my temper in front of h for being so selfish that he'd leave a family for a JOB, then he'd be able to say to himself, "W is such a b#@$!, of course I'm justified in leaving..." so you have to contrast those negative images that she WANTS now to justify, with positive warm ones.

If you cannot manage that, and I understand how hard it can be, then at least stay calm...in front of her at least. Dress well, Look your best, be a bit mysterious too. I mean, not saying date or act like it, but let her remember that YOU are a good catch as a man/husband. What does her family say about all this now? IF they're Italian, how do they feel about a wife leaving her family? And make no mistake, you cannot leave the house. Let HER be the one to leave if she wants out, so she "Can be on her own..." NOT YOU....you want the family to stay together so you stay IN the home...any lawyer will tell you this btw.

good grief. Good luck, and are either of you willing to talk to a c?

Please go yourself or make an appt with a DB coach. I found mine VERY VERY helpful and specific, which is what I really needed. Probably the biggest reason we are still together, is the DB coaching. Not to take anything away from my T, but the DB folks are quite specific and that helps a lot so you will have a bit of a "script" to follow. Maybe Sounds weird, but I needed it.

((( j )))

[d1adsl5a]

I can't tell you how much your note meant to me today. I will do a much better job with my replies. I have a tendency to get defensive and try to rationalize with her how I wasn't this bad guy..The scary part is when I do stand up to her, she comes back twice as hard. And then I think, man I just got real mad, and she just got madder. So I just back down because it isn't worth it. I promise I will use your rebuttals going forward.

On the italian family side: They all think she is crazy. Her father told her that if she divorces me, he will disown her as a daughter. Normally, that would be good for me. But it just makes her more rebellious. She is in the rebellious teenager phase where she works out constantly, goes out till 2am. Her two best friends have stopped talking to her. Her other friends have as well. Which is why her new support group consists of 1 alcoholic divorced woman, 1 recovered drug addict, the exboyfriend from 20 years ago that doesn't have a job and got fired as a pizza manager for looking at porn. The only time I see her get emotional is when she talks about the friends that now ignore her. No tears for the loss of me..Yet.

She stopped wanting to go to marriage counseling after 4 sessions. I have been going to individual counseling since it started. It does help. But it sounds like you really recommend the DB coaching. I think I will make the call.

She finally started going to counseling a few weeks ago. The only positive was that the counselor suggested going to see a mediator because looks like you want the divorce. She told the counselor to slow down a bit and is considering switching because the counselor was moving way to fast.

I just don't get how people can just get up and leave. There really hasn't been any effort on her part to work the marriage until she figures out if this is right for her. Actually saw her Journal where she wrote to a friend that most times she thinks a divorce is the right thing for her and the boys. This is after she says the best thing about me is that I have been the best father...I cannot and will not be the every other weekend dad. She has this vision of us buying two houses close to each other and I can visit any time I want. I told her this wouldn't be a tv show. It would hurt to much seeing her every day. Anyway, not planning on that becoming a reality anyway.

Your H left for a job. Just don't know people have this in them. It is amazing your H actually thought that you held him back. Seems like all MLC's have that as a common trait. You obviously suffered for a long time. Your stregnth will definitely give me strength. I will not leave and abandon my sons...Thanks again and I hope you have a great weekend.

[sandi2]

The more you or anyone else defends you--the worse it makes your W feel toward you. It is better not to say anything in your own defense. I know it is hard not to try to justify your actions or way of thinking, but you cannot get through to her brain at this time. The most important thing for you to remember is the fact that this woman is not the girl you M. The sooner you stop asking yourself "why" and "how" could she do what she's doing....the sooner you will start to get better. That's right, I said "you" will get better b/c she is not going to get better for quite some time if she's in MLC. You can't control her nor can you change her so all you can do is try to think about what's best for you and the kids. I understand That you are in a lot of pain with the way she’s acting, but here’s the thing…you can choose to fret over her behavior and continue to talk until you are blue in the face, all of which will do zero amount of good…or you can decide that you are going to make life all about you and your children until the woman you M decides to show up again. That is not an easy thing to do, but it is about the only thing you can do to maintain your sanity. This is MHO, but I think if you just tune her out and act as if you could care less about what she does or how badly she misbehaves….then I think you will be better off. When she sees for herself that she is not changing you or the R by how poorly she behaves, then maybe she will stop rebelling and doing things simply to get a reaction from you. You need to act nonchalant about her behavior. And when she throws a tempter tantrum or some of her other outlandish stunts, just look at her very coolly and say, “Do you know how ridicules you look when you act like that?” Or tell her that if only she knew how unattractive she looked when she acted or talked like that she would stop dead in her tracks.

You “cannot” talk her out of doing what she has her head set on doing. You cannot talk her out of acting badly or anything else that MLC does to a person. You can draw boundaries in how she behaves at home. For example, if she chooses to come home at 2:00 a.m. then have all the lights turned out (including the outdoor lights), have all the doors locked and make sure you are asleep (even if you have to pretend sleeping). That gives her the message that you don’t care and that nobody is sitting up waiting for her to come home…and sure not leaving a light on! Don’t ask her any questions about where she goes or when what time she came home….nothing to show concern. Do not tell her what you are "going" to do...just "do it".

Never ask who she talked to on the phone, who called her…nothing to show interest in her activities. Do not inquire about anything she does, goes, thinks….nothing.

You need to make sure she shows you respect, and especially in front of your children and other people. Never allow her to talk down to you. If she begins to throw her temper tantrum…walk out. If you are in a restaurant and she begins to talk down to you or show her anger….walk out and leave her sitting there. If you are anywhere and she acts like that….walk out. I don’t know that everyone would agree with this tactic, and I will assure you that she will be mad enough to kill something, but I bet she will watch her manners before she pulls that stunt again. If you are home when she throws a temper tantrum then be sure to look very hard at her and then turn and walk out of the room while she is still raving. You do not say anything to her.,..just leave. That behavior does not deserve “attention” and people who use that manner of behavior is wanting attention and wanting their own way about everything. She is selfish and she needs to be taught some lessons. Never stand there and take that from her b/c she will disrespect you lower than dirt. A man has to earn respect from a woman like her and it is not easy but it can be done. You tried to show her you anger and she outdone you with her own anger….so that did not work. I believe what will work is for you to leave her hanging by herself while she is mad. Don’t show a reaction other than looking hard at her and walking out. It is important to understand that you do NOT wait until she is finished with what she has to say and that you leave as soon as she begins her fit of anger.


quote]I just don't get how people can just get up and leave. There really hasn't been any effort on her part to work the marriage until she figures out if this is right for her.[/quote]

Do not try to get her to go to MC or to read or watch anything about M improvement. You cannot get her interested in what she is fighting so hard against. It will take a long time before she even hints at coming around to being interested in working on the M. She wants nothing to do with you right now. That is why it is important not to pursue her in any area. You cannot reason with her. People in MLC do not think logically.

This will be an agonizing ordeal to go through and I hope you and make it. Come here for your support and don't look to family and friends.

[faithisbelieving]

Limbo...been there done that. Download the pdf, read and digest:
http://www.womensinfidelity.com

Read:
1) Hold Onto your N.U.T.S by Levine

Google making her happy dot com and sign up for the newsletter.


FIB

[faithisbelieving]

d1...you're in for a longhaul here so you'd better ante up in the patience department. I'd get your FIL to back off. Been there done that. Total backfire.

I hate writing this but your W sounds just like mine did 3 years ago. It's a common pattern. Read the pdf above. It's frightening but held a lot of truth for my W.

I admire your will....I had the same once. Maybe you'll fare better. Back off her. Stop the R talk. Don't try and have family or friends 'talk sense into her'. Vent here. Read and better yourself. Use this time to develop a better set of tools...you'll need them. Find a way to destress.

My advice to most still sticks....begin to grieve the loss of the marriage that you once had because it's NOT going back to what it was. Let go...detach...and grieve. It's the only chance anyone has....that they see their S 'leaving' emotionally. Get Dr. Gray's blue book...Venus Mars Saying Goodbye...to get an understanding of loss of love and also to understand what denial means especially when applied to the 'hope for reconciliation' that is promulgated here.

FIB

[Stronger]

d1adsl5a
You get the hardest to figure out name on the DB board!

Here's some more hope for you....explains why you are fighting.

My H started an EA that turned PA. He left in November, started the PA in January, things were hot and heavy there, so much so he went to a lawyer and was so cold to me. Then at the end of January, OW drops him for a younger, RICHER man. She's now engaged to him.

But when things were bad around Christmas and January, he wrote me several emails that it was over, he was sorry, he took the blame for all of it, blah blah blah. In early May and again in mid May, I got emails that again, it's over, he's sorry.

I stood my ground. Kept DBing. I told him I will fight the divorce on the grounds we never sought MC. I'm pretty sure his lawyer (that he saw again in mid May) told him the same thing my lawyer said: Yes, you'll get your divorce, but she'll get her MC first because you have a son.

During May, H constantly picked fights and wanted me to "sign the papers". I stood my ground.

Here's where your hope comes in: Since about mid june or so, things have been much much better. We are ML again with more passion and affection. He's considering my feelings now. (Now I have to really concentrate to not push too hard for more since I've been so deprived for months now. Hard to do some days.) He planned my birthday weekend and it was fabulous. He even said "I have to make up for Christmas and Mother's Day here, so that's why" was his answer when I asked why he did so much. I was thrilled. (He got me nothing for either events, not even a card.)

But it went from "Sign the papers!! I want out of this marriage!" To "I have to make up for Christmas and Mother's Day here...."

He won't admit he's working on things out right, but he's alluded to it and I don't push. This is hard for him too. We talk a lot more. As a matter of fact, he's more opened now about what got us here where as before, nothing. And while much of that was very very hard for me hear (who wants hear how they screwed up) it's been vital to recovery.

You can do this. But listen to people here. They've been through it and are still going through it. But there are many many success stories here.

As one of my favorite DBers told me....you just have to be the greener grass.

I think more people would work through it if they realized the better comes after the worse.

[d1adsl5a]

Thanks. I read your thread. And I do hope I fare better. Sounds like it has been a long hard road. I did order the books today. Will read them tomorrow. It is month 3 and no change. She wrote a letter to my mother today saying she was sorry for hurting her and no matter what the outcome, she wants to have a good relationship. Right now my entire family despises her for what she is doing....

this will definitely be my biggest test in life. I do feel a little better the last couple days. Been detaching a bit more each day. I also get a little more resentful each day. Makes it easier to handle I guess. I just hope she decides to make an effort before it is too late for me to come back. She went out tonight dressed to kill as usual. I make sure I am gone with the kids before she leaves and sleeping before she comes home...

Thanks.

[d1adsl5a]

Sorry about the hard to figure out name. Was one of those passcodes I had to invent years ago for something and have been using it ever since. Thanks for the hope. It seems that is all I have a this point. Sitting at home tonight while she is out. Didn't ask who, what, where, anything. Just left before she went out. I hate to see her get her dressed to kill in her Cougar outfit before she goes out. I am so tired of hearing that I was controlling, I made all the decions in the marriage, it is my money not hers, I'm this, I'm that...My god it is amazing she stayed married to me for 15 years. She wrote a letter to my mother today unprovoked. Saying however this turns out, she wants to remain friends and that she is sorry for hurting her. She says she needs to do what is best for her boys. That she wants them to see her stand on her own two feet. I want to tell her our three sons just want their mommy. They could care less if Mommy is making money and can buy things without using our joint credit card which is $4,000 per month plus private school, mortgage and Sam's club. Am I that controlling??? Sorry, just venting. I said to my mother I don't care what you write to my wife. Whatever your feelings are, say them. I am tired of everyone walking on eggshells around her, including myself. My family is close, hers is not. I know getting family involved is wrong. I am not really. If they want to say something, let them....I just try to basically ignore her now as much as I can.

Anyway, I was glad to hear your story. Reading through many of these friends it is hard to find many success stories. Sounds like a lot of people like me just trying to get through the days during their dark days. And these are Dark Days. Thanks for hope. Have a good night.

[Stronger]

The rule about leaving family out of it is a good one....but I think there are exceptions and your case is one of them. You can't stop your wife from contacting your family and you can't control your family and their responses. Let them deal with each other and make it clear to your wife, remind her, that she started it and she has to deal with it now.

This may be hard to do....but you are going to have to really look at yourself as a spouse. It was one of the most eye opening, difficult, heartbreaking things for me. To realize you aren't the perfect spouse as your spouse is out being a jerk is hard to swallow. But it could help save your marriage. Could she be exaggerating things? Sure. But what if she's not? What if she's telling the truth and she really really feels this way and it's just come to a head?

My H left because the kindness, affection and loving was no longer there for him. I know I stopped being physically affectionate....but I thought I stopped when I gained so much baby weight. He said "No, it stopped long long before that." I was about to argue, and he was ready. He gave me specific examples....which means these are things in his memory because they hurt him. And what really sucked....I did remember them too and now I see them through his eyes. They didn't register with me because I knew at that time and now, I loved him. I wasn't being that way because I didn't or because I wanted my marriage to fail.....I can't tell you why I was like that....I can't tell you why I became colder and less affectionate. I just did and I realize that now with a very heavy regretful heart. But now that I know and I have acknowledged it, we've been better.

There were some things he talked about that I truly disagree with him and I think he's made me the bigger bad guy in some instances.....but I've decided there's no arguing about that. If he sees it that way, then that's his reality and I have to deal and work on it. IF I want to. And I do.

He's never said anything outlandish, like I punched him one night while I was sleeping. And the things he needs I am very willing to provide. His list really isn't hard and I just regret that this happened. I wonder "Could all of this been avoided if I had just listened better back then?" And the sad truth is probably.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm pissed about how he's handled things.....another part of me, knowing me, wonders if this was the only way to get through to me.....??? I am by nature very hard headed. For the longest time I wanted to be right. Now I just want to be happy.

It's funny....years ago you weren't controlling, you were in charge and that's sexy. Over the years, somehow it turns into controlling.

But what I'm saying is this: listen to her and really hear her.

[d1adsl5a]

Thanks Sandi. I keep telling myself that I am done writing letters--I swear the one I wrote last tuesday will be the last. She did go out tonight. I will have all the lights off. I said in the earlier reply to others that she dropped an email to my mother today saying that whatever happens she wants to be friends. My whole family despises her for what she is doing. My mother asked me if she could respond. I said that you say/do what you want. I am tired of walking on eggshells so nobody gets Joanne "angry". So if a woman who has been married for 40 years drops a line of what marriage is about, fine. Everyone is afraid, except me to tell her how they really feel because they are afraid of her reaction.

Sandi I did just that this morning. I know I am not supposed to get in a relationship discussion. Sometimes I just need to tell her what I feel sometimes. I just can't hold it in any more. I said:

-The one person you can't lie to is yourself. Don't say that this is best for you and the kids. It is about you. What is best for the kids is an intact family. They don't care if mommy is able to stand on her own two feet without a husband. This is all you.

-I am in therapy learning how to be a better person. You are in there already talking about a mediator for divorce proceedings and how to get your friends back that won't talk to you anymore. You have been plotting your escape plan since you dropped the bomb in May. You have not been working on anything on how to "fix" yourself.

-Her response: that may be true. that is what I am trying to figure out. She also said if I am happy the kids will be happy.....

-I finished with I felt I could have been super husband and we would be in the same marital status that we are today..

I know I let myself down by talking about the relationship, sometimes I just have to let her know where I stand.

Anyway, I will try to do better db'ing. I went out a couple nights back night and didn't tell her where or who I was going out with. You will enjoy this quick story. I get home and she is sound to sleep on the couch. I try to wake her up to go upstairs and she says lay with me. I said what, she said just stay here and lay with me. So I did for 5 minutes after she fell back asleep. I ask her the next morning if she remembers what happened last night. She said she doesn't remember. She took an ambien, two-three glasses of wine and her effexor(helps with her anger) and she doesn't rememer. I just said sorry to hear your not sleeping and you can't remember what you said.

Just a little more salt in my wounds...

Sandi, I just hope I have the strength to wait this thing out. It is hard just to look at her sometimes. She is the best actress I have ever met...