Divorce not busted 2

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I see your point, puppy, but do you think if she has a niggling feeling inside about loving me that reminding her that I can't stop loving her might help her to realize that I am worth staying with?

No, I don't. I mean I think that's all perfectly RATIONAL, from YOUR point of view, but I think from HERS, she will see it as pursuing and "pressure."

Of course, if I was good at reading women, I wouldn't be here, would I . . .

[Coach]

Card #1 no doubt.

[mac-ct]

Orich - no brainer boed.

Card 1.

Puppy nailed it - "rational" - oh boy - I wish.

But if wish's were fish's (where the heck did THAT come from).

Sllllleeeeeepppppp required.

Chin up.

Mac

[25yearsmlc]

go with the first card and sign it, (if you must), "WITH LOVE" or "love always" or something like that.

But do not give her the card that pressures her....

J-

[Orich]

Ok, card #1 it is. Thanks, guys.

[Orich]

No really, thank you very much for keeping me on the straight and narrow. After really thinking about it, I see what you mean. I really do.
Today was s4 kids party. We worked together well, and even shared a few laughs.

[sandi2]

Hi Orich, I did not want to post this on your birthday, so I waited till today. I kept reading your thread while remembering what I felt like as a WAW. I know you were encouraged when your W told you she regretted sending you that letter. I was really hoping that that would be the end of her feeling like a WAW, however...I was still very concerned. Sometimes I think maybe I am too negative. Orich, when you talk about your W, I can almost see her in my mind. I am concerned that she has closed her heart to you and it will be harder than you originally thought. You see, you will have to wait for her to open her heart to you. That is very difficult. You could ask my H how hard it is b/c he had to live with me a long time in that condition. I was in that condition when I began to stray and had an EA.
When you talk about your W not acting like she wants you to get physically close or to even pretend like you may want to have sex…I know what she is thinking. She feels a cold as an ice burg and she doesn’t “want” to be that way, but it seems to overtake her in spite. There will probably be some who will think I am very wrong in all of this, but I’m just telling you that I think I know where she’s at. You see, it makes no difference in how hard you try to convince her you don’t “expect” to have sex with her….she knows it’s on your mind for every occasion and for all the no occasions… and she freezes up inside. Not long after I was here on the board, I was talking about W’s being frigid and was criticized for even using that word, but nevertheless, that is how a woman “feels” when her mind & body freezes up and she doesn’t want to be touched. She feels as if her body turns to ice. I know that the mind controls the body….and all of that stuff….but I saying that I think your W has issues in the bedroom department and she is very conflicted about what the heck her feelings are at this time. She wants to have those “in love” experiences and she would like for them to be with you, but if they don’t simply happen, (in her mind set), then she is confused and worried and feels turned-off……all at the same time. She comes across as being hateful b/c she has to do something to keep you at a distance. If she is “nice”, she is afraid that is the green light to you. Let’s be truthful, in most M’s…..it is that way. Whenever the W doesn’t want to have sex, she is usually not so warm toward her H b/c she knows if she is that he will be ready for sex. I am probably the only female on this board who has ever said that, but I believe it is the truth. Men can say they don’t “expect” it all they want to, but we all know that the “thought” of sex is constantly in the back of your minds. That is how men are wired (as someone said). You can’t help it (I suppose…lol). W’s should not act like they do --trying to discourage their H from wanting to have sex with them, but most do. IMHO, a lot of women do that instead of just being upfront and saying, “I don’t want to have sex, so don’t even think about it”, b/c they know it will lead to other not-so-nice words. So, they put on the ice burg coat as their…….cover. I think when physical affection is not the LL it makes things worse for them and they tend to act like this. Do you really know what her LL is? Have you ever discussed that book with her and asked her what it was…or did you simply placed your thoughts on what her LL was?

Now, the next thing to probably come out of your mouth is “what do I do about this”? I don’t know. I’m a lot of help, huh? The only thing I can recommend is to try your best to act as if having sex is the farthest thing from your mind. Of course it isn’t b/c you mention it quite frequently….lol. That’s okay b/c you have to talk about it somewhere. I simply know that human beings want what they can’t have and if your W thought that you did not want her sexually, then it might have some bearing on her thinking. I don’t know that it would. If you were to act all charming and sexy, flirty and fun…..but yet not give off any signs of wanting to touch her…..how do you think she would react to that? Do you think after so much time has passed that she would initiate any moves toward physical affection? Just a thought. I’m not so sure you could pull it off. I’m concerned that you are too needy and she sees right through you. It’s hard to fool your wife! I bet if she walked up to you and kissed you with a long, soft, wet kiss…..you would about die! Oh well, so much for that idea.

I hope I am wrong about her having a “closed heart” and that maybe in time she will open up and be able to talk to you about whatever is bothering her. I’m concerned that this is a long way from being over. I know you wanted to have time alone with her on the anniversary and I kept wanting to say, “no, no, don’t do that”, but then she turned the invitation down. I think she will fight against being alone or anything that hints of intimacy. It’s something she’s got to work out. I know what “my” problem in my M was and why I was the way I was, but I don’t know what “her” problem really is right now. It puts you in a bad place and I only wished I knew how to help you. Are you sure she hasn’t mentioned something in the past that she wished you would do in your personal intimate R with her….that you aren’t doing? For an example, I craved for my H to open up his heart and talk to me about “us” and how he felt about us and talk about his goals in life….you know that sort of things. It only happened one time and it turned me on like crazy. You would have thought that he saw what worked and would have tried it again, right? Maybe the men here can explain that one to me. But anyway, there is something that is not fulfilling this girl and she feels emotionally empty. It may not be you at all, but then I don’t know why she would be turning you away like that. I mean that is not a good healthy sigh! I hope and pray it’s not still the OM, but it very well could be. If she has her mind on him, that could be her “block”.

I feel badly about laying this all out while birthdays and anniversaries are hitting this week, but since you are talking about some of it, then I’m going to go on and spill the whole can of beans. I am worried that something happened with OM that made her turn back to you and now she is having serious conflicts over it. She may be trying to do what is “right” and OTOH, she may have felt rejected by OM and mentally went back to your open arms as a result. That doesn’t mean her mind is where it needs to be simply b/c she told you she regretted that letter. Naturally the way her mind thinks it will affect her body, sexually. That could be the answer as to why she seems to have a closed heart to you. There is something that’s definitely not right for her. She doesn’t want to be alone with you and I was expecting her to try to get out of an intimate dinner on the anniversary. I think I warned you about not trying to do that, but most of you guys have a hard head and end up doing it anyway. Most of you can’t seem to get away from the idea that if only the two of you could spend some “alone time” that you could work it out. But, when a W has a closed heart toward her H, she doesn’t want to be alone with him. She will find every excuse to prevent that from happening……and especially where sex is concerned. So, that was a pretty strong hint even if she found a handy “excuse” for not going to dinner on her anniversary. I am so glad you listen to the folks about staying away from the mushy card b/c no matter how much you want to show her you love her…if she is not in the emotional place she needs to be to receive it, it will fall flat and maybe even worse….it could backfire to the point she could over-react and it could turn into a R talk and go from bad to worse. It is so obvious she is using all the celebrations this week as a convenient cover-up, but when she had time to pick out all the cards, birthday gifts, party decorations…and yet she could not take a minute to pick out a card for her H while she was already in the card aisle?? Pu….lease!

I hate this so much for you b/c you are trying as hard as you know how to DB this stitch. Unless you can think of something she has said in the past that she really needs from a R with you….that you are not providing, then I would say this is a problem in her that she has to work out. It may not be in you at all. If not, then how would that make you feel?
Where would that place you in this MR? Well, anyway, if you’ve not heard of the marriage builders program on the Internet, you can check it out and receive valuable information completely free on line. It goes hand in hand with DBing but just uses some different technical words in their categories of teaching. It is very good and may be what you need right now.

[Orich]

Wow.
Thank you, Sandi, you obviously care a lot as evidence by that post. I truly appreciate it.
As far as intimacy goes, yes, I do wish I could have it again. Badly. Very badly. However, I can honestly say that I don't communicate that to her at all. In fact, there have been one or two occasions where she has said things where I could have easily said or done something to show my eagerness. Just as an example, recently at a ball game, a woman with large breasts moved past us in the row. My little guy said something to the effect of "Wow, Mommy, her boobies are bigger than yours" or something to that effect. W turned to me with wide eyes and a smile and said that he was going to be like me. I just chuckled and said "yeah".
The point is that I have come to a very strange place where I can put off those feelings around her, usually by saying a prayer in my mind for strength whenever I feel the urge around her (which is often!) When we were first together, even after being married for a few years, we ML very frequently, almost nightly. She always had a high drive. All I had to do was brush past her in the bathroom while she was doing her make-up, and we were late for whatever she was getting made up for. Now, I certainly avoid body contact, or try to distract myself from looking at her in her tight t-shirt or whatever, and so far it is working. I never bring up anything sexual, where I used to tell her she looked hot or sexy, now I say she looks pretty, etc.
Bottom line is that I don't think I come across as needy at all. In fact, I have been detaching pretty well. She comes to me now asking about things that are going on rather than me volunteering the information. Two GALs that have her scratching her head are that I am going by myself to a Titanic artifacts exhibit by myself next month, and will be attending November's Whiskyfest both in the city. I never mentioned my plans until she saw the confirmations that came in the mail.
Yesterday's birthday party for my son went very well, and after everyone left, we were alone cleaning, etc, then sat and looked at all the digital pictures I took. When we finished, I excused myself and went to bed. I do that a lot now. I have to get up at 4 am every morning to go to work. I used to wait up for her sometimes until after 11 or 12 to have sex. Now, I pretty much go to bed at 10 without a word other than good night.
As far as OM is concerned, I still don't know how much of a factor that is/was. She told me of her feelings long before he entered the picture. We were already no longer intimate, and she was already talking about leaving. He came along while she was in a low point, and listened to her, to which she responded. I don't think there was any attraction or rejection there. I know the guy. It's a gut feeling. I could be wrong, of course, but that's what I believe.
I can't think of something she might have mentioned that she feels I am not giving her. The closest thing I can think of is that she is more outgoing than me, and she had mentioned this to me, that I don't start conversations with our friends when we are together. I will join them but never initiate. I have since changed that about myself. I don't know if that fits what you are saying.
I honestly don't know how she would react if I acted flirty to her. I guess I have been afraid to be that way for just the reasons I just wrote about. I fear her rejecting me all over again. Plus, if I started getting flirty, and she doesn't respond, it would be physically painful as well.
So, you see, I am in a very difficult place right now, sustained only by those few words she did text to me that Saturday morning. They cut through the Great Sadness and gave me the hope I need to continue to wait in this limbo. Many people I know don't realize just how difficult this is. I am losing my best friend, the person I love more than anyone else in the world, and my lover, all at the same time. I have no one close enough to me anymore to talk about those things about myself that I only spoke to her about. Half of my heart has been not so surgically removed from my body leaving a tremendous empty feeling. And being a highly sexual person, every woman I look at now becomes reduced to a fantasy to me, and the only woman I want to fantasize about has had to become off limits.
But with the help of God and the fine people here, I will prevail, hopefully with my beautiful bride by my side.

[Orich]

I left the thank you card on the counter when I left the house this morning. I just got this text: "Thanks for the card! Do you know when the plumber is coming today?"

Thanks for the card? Thanks for the card?!! WTH? And it was sent with when is the plumber coming? What's up with her? Sandi2, any thoughts?
Sorry... I know I shouldn't expect anything. Still, I would have thought SOME kind of reaction other than "Thanks for the card".
Maybe she is waiting till I get home from work. I'm not expecting her to run into my arms when I get home, but I gave her a thank you card instead of an anniversary card. Isn't she affected in some manner about that?
She sent another text about bringing the boys to see "G-Force" tonight. She wants to eat at the theatre and see the movie. I said yes.
I probably need a 2x4, but please wrap it in bubble wrap, I am a little fragile today, it is after all our anniversary.

[mulesqb]

Orich - my heart goes out to you bro. This is so similar to my sitch last year. Particularly in the way your W has turned to ice and what your interactions have become. She is saying she wants to try or doesn't want to separate or a D, but her actions and body language say otherwise. It is so difficult. I really wish I could offer you advice. I tried so hard and I see you doing the same. I don't think there is anything you can do but give her space. The OM may not really be an issue, but he just may be in her mind. And it makes her think. The whole situation with the anniversary card and birthday cards were identical to my sitch. It hurts.

I really think you just have to back off and live as if she is a close friend. Don't push her either way. And there will be times that you get very frustrated. I will pray that you have the strength to get through them. I didn't. My STBX's behavior became more than I could tolerate. And looking back I feel that I really pushed her towards a D. Unfortunately, I really think you are in for a long haul here. I think this is something she clearly has to work out on her own. You can't put on a timetable. You have to change your goals. Slowly work on the friendship with her. In bits and pieces. Don't overanalyze and get too up or down about any of her behavior or interactions. Be there for her, but don't keep telling her you're there for her. Really try to get your mind off sex. I think the threat of that hanging over her head will make her more distant. And be happy that you still have her in your house and are able to function amicably. And definitely stay away from any R talk. I think that may be the most important thing. If you feel one coming on, get out of there. When they are in this state of mind, the last thing you want is them thinking about the R all the time.

I hope that helps bro.

Strength and Honor.

Mules