An "interesting" and a bit uncomfortable situation came up in the past few days.
My W lost her wedding ring...
She was traveling with her family, took it off, and it disappeared. I have no reason to doubt her story, and she is still wearing her engagement ring. Best guess is that the wedding band slipped into some crack in the rental car and (although we jointly tried to take the car apart looking for it) now can't be found. The wedding band is just gone - with all of the irony and bad timing that goes along with it.
The good news is that it was insured, and the insurance company is sending us a check.
But the question now is...
Do we go shopping for a replacement? Not really a comfortable, or even that logical of a thing to do, considering we are still talking about D. Do I just "Act as if" and start shopping for a replacement? If our M were not strained, that is certainly what we would do.
If not, what do we do with the $ from the insurance company? I don't want it to disappear into the general expenses - if that happens then if and when we reconcile, we would have to find the $ for a ring.
So we talked about putting the $ aside for now.
So we open a savings account and put the $ there? In whose name is the account?
All sorts of weird questions that I would really rather not deal with right now...
Question to the group: Would saying to her "We're married and I want you to have the ring. I'd like to go shopping (tonight...) be pursuing?
If I am going to do that, It should be soon - and just make the shopping as a replacement and not as a big deal / decision.
If I wait, then replacing the ring becomes a big decision / sign of reconciliation.
Last edited by Thinker; 07/29/0904:24 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
I would let sleeping dogs lie. Buy a Certificate of Deposit in both peoples' names. Since you gave her the engagement ring (presuming here it was a set) before marriage, that's her separate property anyway. The wedding ring itself is community property, so it's appropriate that the dollar-value be shared.
If you reconcile, celebrate with a new ring.
If you don't, split the money and buy some whisky.
Did she, as Mrs. SP did, have a "sport band" -- that is, a plain band worn for activities where diamonds were inappropriate? If she does and wants, that could be a "place-holder."
Alternatively, and no endorsement here is express or implied beyond what is written -- I have no financial interest here -- the John Christian jewelry company does a nice "Mother's Ring" (I bought one for WAW before I deployed to Iraq years ago), and I noticed the other day that WAW is wearing it in lieu of a wedding ring.
So you could go that route -- symbolic of the family, her motherhood, etc. -- without treading into "are we married or divorced or what?" territory.
About two years ago W lost her ring (given a year before wedding). Not really lost but "I haven't seen that thing in a long time. Now what did I do with it?" She was always taking it off an leaving it places around the house and I was pissy that she'd misplaced it. I never responded to it.
A few weeks after the bomb W gave one final tear up through the house and car and decided it was gone for good. She submitted an insurance claim.
She used the $ on a out of town trip with BFF but most of it got sucked into car expenses, taxes, and other not so fun stuff. The $ is all gone now. It was a big disappointment to me to see the custom ring I'd bought on my first real-job paychecks and all it symbolized spent on car repair of all things.
In hindsight I shouldn't have been pissy but should have replaced it soon after she lost it.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Well, all in all a rather depressing night last night. Fortunately, I am not on the roller coaster as much as I used to be, so it is no-where near as painful as it used to be.
I think this may be a long post, but mostly just journaling - and keeping everyone up to date.
It started out rather pleasantly: We have a standing arrangement for a babysitter on Thursday nights. (Sometime we use it for C sessions, other times just to walk downtown together for a drink, movie, etc.) W called early in the day "Do you want the babysitter to come tonight?" me: "Sure, let's do something fun and outdoors" In the end, we chose to go explore a nearby town we were not yet familiar with - a walk, some window shopping, a drink, etc.
It was pleasant and friendly. The town was pretty and lively. After a bit, we found a restaurant with a nice, tucked away courtyard with tables in it and decided to have dinner, since by that point we were both hungry.
She talked a bit about her new work, and her frustrations with some of the people she is working with. I happily listened, validated, and basically told her (truthfully) that I understood how she felt and that I thought she was handling it well. I was happy because it has been a long time since she has shared this sort of thing with me.
Then she asked about the mediator I had talked to. I had told her some time ago that I was willing to share everything I had learned, and now she wanted to know. So, I described my discussion with the mediator, and everything I could remember off the cuff about what he said about D and Mediation - the process, the costs, the topics, etc.
She sighed, and said "How did we get here?" (not really a question, so I didn't answer). Then she said "Well, we are still going to this "weekend thing" (Retrovaille) in September, but after that I think we have to make a decision"
Up to this point, I was just listening and validating, but here, I had to stop her. I was calm, but said "No (W), WE don't have to make a decision. YOU have to make a decision."
Her: Why do you always do that? Why do you always make this my fault?
Me: I am not making this your fault. I am simply saying that if you want to get Divorced, then that is a decision that you have to make.
Her (upset): Why do you always get so angry about this?
Me: I am not angry. (Her: "yes you are") Me: No. I don't like what you are doing. I would not choose it. It does not make me happy. But I accept it, and am not angry.
Her: You are trapping me. You want to make this all my fault. You want to be able to be able to tell everyone this is my fault. You want to be able to tell our kids that I was the one who left.
Me: I did not say any of that, please don't put words in my mouth. I don't intend to go around blaming you. However, I would tell the truth.
Her: You just want to tell the kids that I was the one who broke up the marriage.
Me: I would tell them the truth.
Her: That not the truth!!
Me: yes it is. That is what is happening right now.
Her: That's YOUR truth
Me: And that's not YOUR truth?
Her: (long pause) OK, so I'm not happy, and I want out!!
Me: OK, I accept that.
Her: Why don't you want me to be happy?
Me: I do want you to be happy. I really do. I would like nothing more.
Her: No, you say that, but you don't mean it. When you say you want me to be happy, you really mean "I want you to be happy WITH ME". The With ME part is always there and implied.
Me: Please don't interpret it that way. I want you to be happy. AND I want you to be with me. But those two things are independent. I would rather that you be happy without me than unhappy without me.
Her: You mean you would rather that I be happy with you than unhappy with you.
Me: No. I said I would rather that you be happy without me than unhappy without me. I would also rather that you be happy with me than unhappy with me. I want you to be happy, but I your being happy or unhappy is independent from whether we are together. Obviously, the best case would be that you are happy with me, but that is something we don't know about.
Her: Well, you would rather that I be unhappy with you than happy without you!
Me: I did not say that, and neither of us can make that comparison. It is apples and oranges.
Her: Well, you aren't happy either. Are you happy right now.
Me: I am very happy in my life. Things are going well. I have a good job, I love my family, I have a nice life, good friends. Yes, I am happy. I understand what you mean however, and no, I am not happy with our R. In fact our R makes me very unhappy.
Her: Do you want to live like this, in an M like this, for the next 30 years? (later in the car together I laughed out loud and said "What are we talking about, 30 years, I plan to live longer than that!!!")
Me: No, I do not want to life in a sexless, intimacy-less marriage with a big wall between me and my W for the next 30 years. That would be miserable.
Her: So if you are unhappy, why are you making it all my decision and my fault. Why don't you want to end the marriage too??
Me: We have both hurt each other a lot in the past, but right now, in the present, the state of our R is YOUR decision. I understand that you don't want to be close, and you don't want to talk, and that you don't want to touch or have sex, and I accept that. But that is your decision to do these things. You have the wall up between us. You focus on your friends and shut me out. It is at your request that we don't touch or have sex. Just because that makes me unhappy does not mean I should share in the responsibility for ending the M.
There was a bit more to the conversation. I did make the suggestion that she/we postpone making decisions about this until the situation with her Mom is over. I felt that for her own sake, she should not try to initiate a D WHILE her mom is dying of terminal cancer - It would really just be so much for her to deal with at the same time. She didn't like that - responding that right now she had to deal with her mom dying AND a miserable marriage at the same time, so what's the difference.
Throughout all of this she cried and looked upset. I was pretty calm, and to be honest really empathized with the pain she was feeling. I was not happy with what she was saying, but...
At one point, referring to moving ahead in our M one day at a time and enjoying the present she exclaimed "I can't just live in the present. I want to enjoy my life and I can't wait until I'm 50!!"
We left and on the way to the car I joked a bit "Well, maybe it would be the best thing that ever happened to me! :D" - "See!" She said smiling.
I told her that honestly, I had not been happy with the way that I had been treated in the M for a very long time. I also wistfully said that what I really missed was touching - Not sex, but touching, and that the hardest thing for me was not being able to snuggle while sleeping. This led to another discussion in the car on the way home about intimacy, physical touch, and sex.
I did my absolute best to mirror, understand, and empathize. (IMAGO).
Her view (summarized) is:
She wants and needs sex and misses intimacy and touch.
She wants sex badly, BUT she does NOT want sex WITH ME. (her words)
She sees absolutely no hope in our R ever being a happy one.
She also feels that if she ever gave in and relaxed and enjoyed being together "just for the moment" then I would expect things to be like that going forward.
She does not want to snuggle, hug, or have sex with me, or share intimate discussions, or be close in any way, because that would just give me hope and lead me on - and she knows there is no hope.
I mirrored and told also told her that I understood her feelings. I told her that I agreed with her with one small distinction in the cause and effect. I said "Without closeness, or intimacy, or touch, or sex, I agree that there is no hope, and therefore, when I agree that when you do open up, or you do snuggle, etc, then I do start to see hope.
She said she understood, but came back to her point "There is no hope, therefore I can't give you any signs that there might be"
-----
But we are still going to Retrouvaille.
At home I told her that I had arranged for my parents to watch the kids through Monday evening of that weekend. I said I thought it was going to be a rough, tiring, emotional weekend and I didn't think either of us would want to go back home and face the kids and my parents immediately afterward. We could do whatever we want - even if it is stay in a hotel and sleep all day to recover. She said she thought that was a good idea and thanked me.
-----
Needless to say, although I was calm through the whole discussion, it really stirred up my thoughts and I had a hard time sleeping last night. She did too.
-----
And now I am sitting here, trying to work, but surrounded by happy piles of backpacking equipment. For my trip. I am flying out to Washington state and meeting 3 great friends from the Navy for a week of backpacking, salmon fishing, and generally catching up. I am really excited about it - we have been planning it for almost 6 months, and it is the first time since I got married that I have taken a vacation "for myself". I really need this time away.
I fly out tomorrow.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Thinker, I feel for ya. How frustratingly exhausting that must have been.
The "we don't have to make a decision, you have to make a decision" part is an exhausting discussion I've had with my wife. In my case, replace "decision" with "start the D process". Suddenly wants me to make first move, choose the Mediator, etc.
"Pardon me, but I don't want this..."
Sometimes ya just gotta endure.
Gardener
"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, With fruit, with weeds even; but gather them In the one garden you may call your own." Cyrano deBergerac
She sighed, and said "How did we get here?" (not really a question, so I didn't answer). Then she said "Well, we are still going to this "weekend thing" (Retrovaille) in September, but after that I think we have to make a decision"
Up to this point, I was just listening and validating, but here, I had to stop her. I was calm, but said "No (W), WE don't have to make a decision. YOU have to make a decision."
Her: Why do you always do that? Why do you always make this my fault?
Me: I am not making this your fault. I am simply saying that if you want to get Divorced, then that is a decision that you have to make.
Her (upset): Why do you always get so angry about this?
Me: I am not angry. (Her: "yes you are") Me: No. I don't like what you are doing. I would not choose it. It does not make me happy. But I accept it, and am not angry.
Her: You are trapping me. You want to make this all my fault. You want to be able to be able to tell everyone this is my fault. You want to be able to tell our kids that I was the one who left.
Me: I did not say any of that, please don't put words in my mouth. I don't intend to go around blaming you. However, I would tell the truth.
Her: You just want to tell the kids that I was the one who broke up the marriage.
Me: I would tell them the truth.
Her: That not the truth!!
Me: yes it is. That is what is happening right now.
Her: That's YOUR truth
Me: And that's not YOUR truth?
Her: (long pause) OK, so I'm not happy, and I want out!!
Me: OK, I accept that.
Her: Why don't you want me to be happy?
Me: I do want you to be happy. I really do. I would like nothing more.
Her: No, you say that, but you don't mean it. When you say you want me to be happy, you really mean "I want you to be happy WITH ME". The With ME part is always there and implied.
Me: Please don't interpret it that way. I want you to be happy. AND I want you to be with me. But those two things are independent. I would rather that you be happy without me than unhappy without me.
Her: You mean you would rather that I be happy with you than unhappy with you.
Me: No. I said I would rather that you be happy without me than unhappy without me. I would also rather that you be happy with me than unhappy with me. I want you to be happy, but I your being happy or unhappy is independent from whether we are together. Obviously, the best case would be that you are happy with me, but that is something we don't know about.
Her: Well, you would rather that I be unhappy with you than happy without you!
Me: I did not say that, and neither of us can make that comparison. It is apples and oranges.
Her: Well, you aren't happy either. Are you happy right now.
Me: I am very happy in my life. Things are going well. I have a good job, I love my family, I have a nice life, good friends. Yes, I am happy. I understand what you mean however, and no, I am not happy with our R. In fact our R makes me very unhappy.
Her: Do you want to live like this, in an M like this, for the next 30 years? (later in the car together I laughed out loud and said "What are we talking about, 30 years, I plan to live longer than that!!!")
Me: No, I do not want to life in a sexless, intimacy-less marriage with a big wall between me and my W for the next 30 years. That would be miserable.
Her: So if you are unhappy, why are you making it all my decision and my fault. Why don't you want to end the marriage too??
Me: We have both hurt each other a lot in the past, but right now, in the present, the state of our R is YOUR decision. I understand that you don't want to be close, and you don't want to talk, and that you don't want to touch or have sex, and I accept that. But that is your decision to do these things. You have the wall up between us. You focus on your friends and shut me out. It is at your request that we don't touch or have sex. Just because that makes me unhappy does not mean I should share in the responsibility for ending the M.
Think, You handled this great. You really listened to what she was saying and enforced the boundary on her mind-reading/putting words in your mouth. You kept consistent with the message of this is a fork in the road, you have declared your stand and she must chose her path. Then you kinda changed your message a little and she got mad.
Quote:
There was a bit more to the conversation. I did make the suggestion that she/we postpone making decisions about this until the situation with her Mom is over. I felt that for her own sake, she should not try to initiate a D WHILE her mom is dying of terminal cancer - It would really just be so much for her to deal with at the same time. She didn't like that - responding that right now she had to deal with her mom dying AND a miserable marriage at the same time, so what's the difference.
You are fixing/rescuing/waffling here and look at the result. Do you see it? Just be supportive of her about her Mom.
Quote:
I mirrored and told also told her that I understood her feelings. I told her that I agreed with her with one small distinction in the cause and effect. I said "Without closeness, or intimacy, or touch, or sex, I agree that there is no hope, and therefore, when I agree that when you do open up, or you do snuggle, etc, then I do start to see hope.
Which comes first the chicken or the egg? (no wisecracks please)
You work on the connection with no expectations. This is unconditional love. Just do it because you love her. She's watching. Maintain hope for your strength.
Sounds like your trip will be a great tonic for you.
Cheers Coach
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I just had another follow up discussion with W over coffee - I initiated this one.
I wanted to discuss - in a mode of questioning and exploring the possibilities - how she would want to live in the case where we D. We live in an expensive town in an expensive area. We agree that we would want to live near each other so that we could share custody while the boys go to school - so we need to be near enough that they could do that from either of our houses. It would be impossible for us to have two houses in this town. There is also nothing which holds us to this part of the country - we both have more family in other areas.
We also realistically discussed that she would not be able to live on the spousal support she would receive, and would have to go back to work full time.
So we explored it a bit. Her job prospects are OK in this area, but not wonderful, and it would be REALLY hard for her to live on what she could earn plus what she would get in spousal support. Realistically it would make sense if we D, to move out of this house and away from this area completely to an area that has more of our families around, has a lower cost of living, and has better job prospects for her (I can move my job with me).
She was agreeing and talking, but was really upset by the thoughts brought up by the discussion. At one point she said "I would feel the worst about my friends, I mean our M is ending and that's sad, and our boys will be affected, but they will be OK, but my friends..."(and then, almost as if she were embarrassed by what she was saying) "(Toxic Divorced BFF) will be crushed!"
So it wasn't an argument or a fight, and I didn't push her on anything - just asked a few questions. She ended the discussion by saying in a very tired way "Well, maybe we should go (to this better cheaper more family place) and look around, see what apartments or townhouses are like"
I really wanted to make sure that she was thinking not only about running away, but also what she was running to. A D would be EXTREMELY disruptive to all of us, most particularly to her.
It also helps me to talk openly about it - how it would work, etc. I don't want it, but the more open we are, the less I fear it.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Then you kinda changed your message a little and she got mad.
Quote:
There was a bit more to the conversation. I did make the suggestion that she/we postpone making decisions about this until the situation with her Mom is over. I felt that for her own sake, she should not try to initiate a D WHILE her mom is dying of terminal cancer - It would really just be so much for her to deal with at the same time. She didn't like that - responding that right now she had to deal with her mom dying AND a miserable marriage at the same time, so what's the difference.
You are fixing/rescuing/waffling here and look at the result. Do you see it? Just be supportive of her about her Mom.
Agreed - I realized almost immediately and backed off of this. She didn't really get mad - she was much more mad when I was saying that any D would be her choice
Quote:
You work on the connection with no expectations. This is unconditional love. Just do it because you love her. She's watching. Maintain hope for your strength.
Thanks for the ongoing support. It is really hard. Especially because I can see how stressed and unhappy she is much of the time - it's on her face, it's in her reaction to the boys, etc - and I just want to take her in my arms, hold her tight and comfort her - but I can't do that...
----
W just got all dressed up, smelling good, and went out "to run some errands and meet with a client" I know that the client is the OM she was Sexting with and who she still sees professionally because he is the only one in the area of town she is heading to.
Aaaarghhh! - She's DBing me
----- Jumbled thoughts in my mind over the past 12 hours...
In my sleepless state I spent a while thinking (of course...). I was trying to work through how I would react to another A (PA or EA) right now. It is predicting the future, but it does seem like a likely event. W is feeling anxious and blue, she wants support and craves attention, affection and sex, but does not want any of that from me. She has lots of opportunity.
She wants out of the M, but does not want to be the one to end it...
I have told her that if she wants a D, I would accept that, but it has to be her decision and her responsibility. I think that if she were to start another A, I would have to treat that as a decision by her to end the M.
My boundary would then be "If you wish to end the marriage, and begin dating other men, then fine, end the marriage and then do that, but neither of us may date or have sexual relations of any kind (EA / PA) while we you are still deciding whether to end the M. A decision to begin such a R would be a firm decision to end the M."
I am still working through this - thoughts tumbling around in my mind - but I know that was clearly how I felt during the sexting episodes a couple of weeks ago.
If this is indeed a firm boundary, and if it is to have any affect, then it would have to be clearly set prior to anything happening. I don't know how and if I should bring it up.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
If this is indeed a firm boundary, and if it is to have any affect, then it would have to be clearly set prior to anything happening. I don't know how and if I should bring it up.
More thoughts...
I think right now a discussion like this would fall under the category of "Rocking the Boat"
We have already agreed that we aren't going to be having that sort of external relationships, so -- no point in bringing it up while Retro is 7 weeks away.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
