WAW and 4 kids

[sandi2]

Glad you are making a boundary about how she talks to you and treats you in front of your children. Since you have "explained" your feelings about this in detail...if she does it again, don't "ask" and don't go into the details of how you don't deserve to be talked to like that and how you don't talk disrespectful to her, etc. Simply tell her not to be disrespectful to you. Don't say it like a you are whining or complaining...but say it soft yet firmly. That is a good step in the right direction.

[tryingtilDorR]

I found an analogy regarding my M that I thought I would share. My M is kind of like a person who has had a traumatic injury and is in a coma on life support. You can either do your best to be patient and 'wait it out' to see if the patient wakes up, or you can decided to pull the plug. How long do you wait? When do you lose hope? For now the coma is not old enough to decide to pull the plug(although W may think M was in a coma much longer than I do). I feel like it deserves a lot more time.

While the patient is in a coma you can get frustrated because it seems like you can't do anything to impact the state of things, but there are small things that people do. They try to coax the patient back to consciousness by talking to them or touching them. DB techniques can be viewed similarly - we do them and sit and watch for results. We may not get any visible results but we keep going in spite of the lack of perceived progress.

Still, the question remains: When to pull the plug? I think the answer for me will be when I fundamentally, deep-down know that I do not want to be with W any more. Right now, I don't want to be with W as she exists today, but she might 'wake up' some day and the wait will have been worth it. I am in the stage of starting to feel better about the prospects of the patient never waking up as a potential outcome, but it is not the outcome I want.

She doesn't show any signs of leaving, so I am thinking we could be in this coma-state for a while. On the other hand, she IS here in the house for now and I take some comfort in that since I have read about the difficult situations where the WAS leavs. The in-house separation is difficult to navigate, but I just need to leave her alone and not get bogged down in her emotional whirlwind.

My thoughts and prayers are turning more towards her now - she is going through something painful and I pray that she finds peace and happiness. IF she does, she just might realize that her happiness doesn't depend upon being D.

[tryingtilDorR]

Well, just when I felt like I was getting a good handle on things and not letting OM/EA get to me for my own sanity all hell broke loose today!

History:
OM hooked W up with another trainer, whom she has been seeing for several months a few times a month and likes it. I have never been comfortable with situation because new trainer is friend of OM, etc etc. I have always had the strong feeling that there was some W/OM connection related to this training on a regular basis - either he goes there, or they talk/text about the training regularly at least. I have asked on several occasions if OM shows up at her training appointments and the answer is 'no are you crazy?'.

Today:
W goes to her training appt. I realize that I needed her to sign a few papers that I needed to bring in to work, so I go by the gym (I am not a member) and wait in my car for her to return to her car before I leave town for work. I can't see the door - she parked around the corner and I waited there. She comes out and gets in her car and drives off, but I can't get her attention because I was on the phone. I try to call her several times but she doesn't answer. Finally she answers and tells me:
"I want to be totally honest with you - OM was at the gym today when I was there. He walked in during my workout. I felt bad because I have always told you that he isn't there, and then he ends up showing up today"

Now, I go ballistic. I immediately think that he has been there all along, and the fact that she thought I might have known because I was parked there is the only thing that made her 'fess up'.

I am livid primarily at OM for trying to make contact with her, but also because I assume she has been deceptive again. I yell and scream about it over the phone. I accuse her of telling him she is going to be there but she claims that he found out from the trainer (not sure it matters). She says that she 'obviously' can't go there to train anymore. However, a couple of hours later she reverses position and says she really likes that trainer, etc etc. and will keep going there. I blew up again, but this time in her presence instead of over the phone. She always comes home with flowers after her training sessions (another thing I was suspicious about but she says the owner gives them to her) and I took them and ripped them to shreds, then left for work.

I told her if this was the ONLY time OM has ever been there and it happens to be on the day I show up, then God is truly at work here, but I suspect that I am viewing the tip of the iceberg only instead.

No contact with W since then. I am fuming. I need to detatch/let go because I have already said my peice and she knows my position.

[pigskin]

Things like that are what make the EA's so difficult to deal with. There is no way you can MAKE your spouse drop the EA, they have to do it on their own. And from what I've gathered through the DR book and these forums, all you can do is worry about yourself and let the spouse know what you will not tolerate in your presence/home etc.

Your reaction is natural, I would have had a hard time holding back as well. But if you look at it from your wife's perspective, your actions don't make you look any more appealing to her. Plus there's no way to prove your wife was lying when she said this was a one-off incident, and as you said, you ASSUMED he's been there all along.

Just mentioning it because I've found that almost all of my assumptions of lying/negative intent that I formulate in my own head with regard to my W's actions or words have turned out to be wrong. Then I'm glad I didn't say or act on what I was assuming.

[tryingtilDorR]

Thanks for the feedback Pigskin. My mind is my enemy sometimes given the assumptions I make. After reflecting on everything, I realized that W was trying to be honest with me most likely out of her own free will, but I suspected that she had noticed my car when she drove off and had to 'fess up' as a result, but now I am thinking she may be telling me the truth that she had no idea I was there and could have not said anything to me.

After my reaction she mentioned that she shouldn't have told me (!)

It turns out W and I had been getting along pretty good the previous couple of days, and the fact that she was communicating with me about this when I didn't suspect anything was another step in the right direction even though I can't control OM's actions. I may have destroyed that progress now.

Most of the conflict afterwards yesterday, including an intense argument last night, was about whether or not she should continue to train with this guy. I told her that she can't go there since through no fault of her own the OM can choose to show up at the same time and she needs to limit his opportunities to run into her.

The problem with these kinds of arguments is even though I make perfect sense and what I am asking for is completely logical, she digs in and doesn't want to compromise (one of her 'endearing' traits I have dealt with). This is despite the fact that when the issue was first-discussed she said she 'obviously' couldn't train there anymore.

You are correct that my reaction didn't make me look good in her eyes, and likely drove her closer to OM. I have a strong suspicion she called him later to tell him how mad I got and to ask him to not come there anymore. This may seem like a victory, but any contact with him or OM knowing that he got to me is a setback I figure.

[pigskin]

I told her that she can't go there since through no fault of her own the OM can choose to show up at the same time and she needs to limit his opportunities to run into her.

I don't know if that follows along with the DB principles, since it seems like you are giving her an order that doesn't seem like boundary setting. I could be wrong, but I think most adults would rebel against that. Obviously she knows that the OM could show there any time -- is she putting her preference of gym ahead of her marriage?

You are correct that my reaction didn't make me look good in her eyes, and likely drove her closer to OM. I have a strong suspicion she called him later to tell him how mad I got and to ask him to not come there anymore. This may seem like a victory, but any contact with him or OM knowing that he got to me is a setback I figure.

Yeah - if you put yourself in the OM's place, he's probably having a laugh with his buddies at your expense. He'll probably make it a point to show up there to prove he's a tough guy.

You can't control his actions, so forget about him. He's a worthless piece of garbage and should be viewed as such.

[tryingtilDorR]

You can't control his actions, so forget about him. He's a worthless piece of garbage and should be viewed as such.

Thanks for reminding me!

The thing I try to remember is that he isn't worthy of being able to control my emotions so don't let him.

I spent the past 2 days out of town with D15 at a tournament with just a couple of short phone conversations with W. I think it did me some good to try to clear my head. I came home 'at peace' and with a PMA this afternoon.

W and I had a nice evening - she cooked dinner for some of her family and all of us had a nice time. She wasn't overly-cold to me like usual. The days leading up to the OM issue last week were pretty good between us as well and I was feeling a change in the weather regarding our R for some reason (I try not to get hopes up however).

One thing this OM episode proved is that he is a pursuer. When W and I had discussed this previously she always tried to take ALL the blame for the EA, but I have a feeling things were quieting down between them and this is why he decided to 'show up' at her workout. The fact that he had to do this tells me that he might be pursuing because she isn't moving in the direction he wants? I am not going to get too twisted up mentally over this but it is interesting to consider.

My emotional reaction was so powerful I suprised even myself. I wouldn't have expected that I would react that way - I had been convincing myself that I didn't care about OM as much anymore but I guess I do.

[tryingtilDorR]

We had a good day yesterday - we had to take S10 to camp and we all drove over together and then stopped for dinner on the way home. W was in a good mood it seemed and the level of tension was low. It seems like thngs are back to how they were leading into the OM incident last week, when I thought things were going pretty well between us. It almost felt like the level of tension was low enough where we could possibly try to be friends again. She even brought up details of her 40-mile bike ride from earlier int he morning - a topic she has said is off limits between us. I always view her willingness to talk about her training umprompted as a good sign.

The noteworthy thing that happened is that W printed out her cell phone bill and left it on the desk. I had been trying to get her to show me the detailed bill for the past 8 months and she finally did it. She didn't tell me she did it - she just left it on the desk.

It was for July, and I looked it over and only saw a few interactions with OM. Probably around 10 text messages. Some of them were back when she discovered that I was investigating his criminal record so that was the driver there.

We had a flare-up in Florida over her texting because I thought she was communicating with OM and I was right about that also. She sent him a text just before our plane left and then a couple back and forth the next day when I called her on it and the argument ensued. She is the type who will lash out when she is guilty so when I accused her of this that is what she did, but it looks like I was right.

Other than that there were some texts but only one call - the one she made when she found out I was looking into his criminal record around July 1st.

What does it all mean? I guess her ineraction with him is on the low end of what I suspected, unless she has another phone which I don't believe she does. Also, the times when she communicated with him the most were when I sensed the most distance and anger from her over the past month, and one of those times was prompted by my own behavior (investigating his CR which W figured out by digging through my email).

So, if I look at the situation two very positive movements in the past week occured - she voluntarily told me that OM showed up at her workout and she printed up her phone bill for me to see. Why would she print it? I am not sure, but I was going to thank her for doing it.

Should I thank her and leave it at that with no comments about the content? It has been a request over and over again for months. Or, is it something she should be doing anyway so I should just not say anything or at least mention that I saw it?

[tryingtilDorR]

One other thing about hte phone bill - I noticed that she is the one who always initiated contact when it occurred. I think this is just hte protocol that has been established because she doesn't want him texting her unless it is safe (doesn't want me or kids to see a text from him). Therefore she initiates contact and probably says don't text back, etc. depending upon what the situation is.

Anyway, there were only a few text conversations, so I can definitely determine that the EA has subsided from earlier levels which I had suspected anyway. They were talking every day for 2 hours through February, and when it flared up again in May I think they were talking a few times a week and doing lots of texting prior to me busting it again in early June.

Since it seems to be quieting down I am going to try to relax and go back to my own 'work' and do my best to be a good DBer. I felt like I Was there a week ago but the contact with OM threw me off.

[tryingtilDorR]

So here's an update. As I stated from last week we had a big blow up over the fact that OM showed up at her training which you can read about above.

One of my boundaries that I tried to set was that she shouldn't go to the trainer any more sine the OM is his buddy and could show up anytime.

She was irritable towards me Tues night and yesterday morning, and she reluctantly then tells me yesterday morning while she was in ths shower that she is going to a training appt, and that I am welcome to go and watch to see that OM isn't there. She claims that she told him that he cannot show up there anymore when she is there. I believe this.

I don't know if that follows along with the DB principles, since it seems like you are giving her an order that doesn't seem like boundary setting. I could be wrong, but I think most adults would rebel against that. Obviously she knows that the OM could show there any time -- is she putting her preference of gym ahead of her marriage?

I get angry and tell her that I don't want her going there at all really, etc etc. but also realize that I can't control her actions even if this is a boundary. I re-adjust the boundary to be that no OM, but if he shows up she needs to be honest.
I also made some comments about how she has been treating me the last 24 hours (like some sort of enemy) and that I don't like it especially in front of the kids.

During the course of this conversation she says:

"I am separated but stayin in the house for hte kids"
"I can never be happy with you"
"The sooner I leave the better"

and some other unencouraging things. Now, my reaction is that I shouldn't react really - she is kind of crazy and saying lots of stuff. However, on the last point, I asked if she considered her kids' opinion on that statement? No answer.

I think this is a reaction to her feeling stifled in that she knows she has an issue with this training now. It is something that she initially tried to hide from me, then was very secretive about where it was and with whom, etc. It has been a source of suspicion and frustration for me for months and it is a connection she has with OM even if he isn't there (gives them a reason to talk, etc).

I ended up sitting in a coffee shop accross the street and watched just to show her I am serious about this - no OM allowed. Now, I realize that I should just let this go, she is going to do what she is going to do and the POS-OM is going to do the same and I will just drive myself insane worrying about it, but I figure if the both her and the trainer knew I just might show up there it would get back to OM and he wouldn't want to put my W in an uncomfortable position I figure (if he does then that's another story!).

Afterward I was able to develop much more of a PMA. I am reading a couple of books that have helped. One of which is "A return to Love" by Marianne Williamson. This book stresses the fact that if we act out of fear we are surrendering to evil, but if we act out of love we are living the way God intends us to and that HE will provide, and miracles CAN occur if we focus on acting out of love. She does a great job of hammering this home. I realized that all of my reactions when things get stressful or go badly are due to acting out of fear, not love. Hanging around yesterday watching for OM was acting out of fear I realize now, but at the same time it might help W since he might take her request to not show up more seriously now. When I act out of love (but don't be a doormat) I feel much better and I think I instinctively do the right things for myself and peripherally for the M/R.

Another insightful book is Uncoupling. This is written by a sociologist who studied the breakup of 100s of relationships and what the process is. It describes in detail the process the Initiator (WAS) goes through and how much of a head start they have on the LBS, and how the LBS has to go through the same phases but they are forced to instead of choosing it willinging, have to start much later and 'catch up', but essentially they end up doing the same things to uncouple from the R.

The LBS ends up forming negative opinions of the WAS due to how they are being treated, whereas the WAS originally did this out of choice (they chose to focus on the negative without the LBS trying to be hurtful, etc and without LBS knowing anything was wrong). It talks about how initially after the bomb the LBS focuses on positive things which is why we all want to save the M/R in the begninning because we see that good can come from the R, but that we turn negative over time due to how we are treated, which I see happening in ohter LBS threads and in my own R.

Interesting read. Not a lot of hope for R from this book since she only talked to people who split up, so keep that in mind if you read it. However, it gives you an idea of the phases that WAS has already gone through by the time we get the bomb and how they have structured their thinking and social interactions to support uncoupling from the R, and what is coming next if you don't reconcile.