Hey SP, I'm not going to be offended by the implication there.
Not sure what the implication is, but that's good.
how the assignment of blame and the extraction of "truth" is too subjective to be reliable
Yes, exactly, exactly what I'm getting at. So for example when you do your "he wins / I lose" thing by way of beating up on yourself, that whole construction is predicated upon a totally subjective evaluation of what the Truth in the situation is. Which isn't helpful, because it's just self-directed angst.
I also see so much WAS dissecting here that I doubt any of us really subscribe to the belief that they're awesome and we just s*ck
Maybe, maybe not -- but that notion sort of lurks there, right? The mantra "your changes are for you" really gets at the generally unspoken recognition that, in many cases, the changes are -- or, at least, are started for -- the WAS. This whole notion of figuring out what you did "wrong" and then fixing it is predicated upon the WAS's implied POV, all warnings against "mind-reading" to the contrary notwithstanding.
I can't see worrying about changing something that might hypothetically appeal to the next Mrs. SP. You change the things that YOU feel you need to change for your own well being. The next Mrs. SP will fall in love with you where you are at that point.
Well one would hope. My interest there is in this kind of macro discussion of what one's True Self really is. I mean, if you go around changing everything you are -- an exaggeration to make the argument! -- in response to the crisis of The Bomb, then are you "real" for the next Mr. or Mrs.? Wouldn't it be ironic if, for example, LBH "realized" that his W left him because he was too distant emotionally and so 180'd and became totally available emotionally -- and his next W said, "Man, I wish you were more aloof emotionally -- this closeness is driving me batty!"
So what's with all this rambling brooding anyway? Well I suppose it's that I'm in this sort of trough, DB-wise. I'm kind of plateauing on the GAL stuff -- it's the dog days, after all -- and the sitch is in some limbo (not @Thinker's limbo, but literal limbo, just no movement on anything until The Mouthpiece lays it out), so I'm just stepping back and looking over the past 6 months as an analytical problem.
And you didn't irk me -- I was worried that you'd taken all sorts of offense.
On the other hand, tomorrow is the big MC2 #1 session, so we'll see what kind of madness ensues there. Still not sure why we're even going, but hey -- as Coach says, take every opportunity to "be there."
But there were a 1,001 things WAW did, as well. And those things tend to be silenced in the DBology. Silenced because, in a literal sense, there's nothing you can do about them.
But it seems to me that you should absolutely be aware of them, not only because they impact your DB kung-fu in a myriad of ways, but also because they are part of the Truth of the relationship.
And if you take those "past" things out, and dust them off, and look at them in the light of day, you might -- just might -- learn some things about yourself. And the rose-colored glasses might no longer be so useful when looking at WAS.
Because maybe in some / many ways -- and maybe in some or many important ways -- WAS just might not be what you thought
That's the joy of piecing in any "new" marriage.
I can handle it.
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Yes, exactly, exactly what I'm getting at. So for example when you do your "he wins / I lose" thing by way of beating up on yourself, that whole construction is predicated upon a totally subjective evaluation of what the Truth in the situation is. Which isn't helpful, because it's just self-directed angst.
My win/lose paradigm doesn't have to do with me finding fault in myself, it has to do with my life being exponentially harder, my kids flipping out (but only with me), my needing to find employment, my overwhelming concern for all parties involved, my needing to initiate legal action, my having most of our "stuff" to sort through, document, tend to, while H has a nice tidy little pad with only what he needs, the kids on their best behavior, a fruitful career that I helped him develop, a huge circle of friends (many whom I like) and an active social life (plus girlfriend(s)). So, yes I feel f*cked right now. In no way do I feel like that makes me the a**hole, just makes me have to take responsibility for being where I am which can generate a tad of self-loathing (if my life s*cks, I've surely got something to do with it).
As for the changes you make, I think anything that doesn't change on a deeper level and is not really cultivated over time, will fade away in time. I believe you know full well which changes are worthwhile and which aren't.
True enough, though it seems to me that when you share the responsibility for the happiness and well-being of 2 children, one has a certain investment in the emotional well-being of the parenting partner. That is to say, if s/he's not well, then the kids by definition are suffering. So one has an interest -- not a responsibility -- in helping to preserve that other half of the parenting team, no?
Spin.. spin.. spin. One has an overriding interest in the welfare of their children. One can be accommodating with schedules based on opportunities, conflicts, etc.
Missing out on Cairo? Your choice. Exercising your priorities. Ask for help next time if it feels unfair.
Children have unique relationships with their parents individually. Having a parent in separate households changes the dynamics. The children develop, embrace a changing relationship with each parent.
It seems that by being so available to her, you are enabling her behavior... and stilting her growth. Let her want to be with you, love you for all the right reasons not because she feels so unworthy she 'settles'. She is responsible for her happiness, not you. Let her deal with her situation, choices, 'unpack it, blow the dust off it, and sort of turn it around in the light to appraise it'. Respect her enough to let her go.
If she initiates a conversation, listen. Turn off the hydraulics, jokes and listen without adding anything more to the conversation than validation, noises of encouragement or repeating what she says. Don't Fix.
You're the Dad, not the husband at this point.
And I agree with doing what's necessary to heal from the past but there's a point when it's masochistic unpack it, blow the dust off it, and sort of turn it around in the light to appraise it masturbation, whacking the dead horse.
Healthy folks accept the good, regret what didn't work and move forward in a positive way. It's all a process.. When my kids were young, I'd look at moms of teenagers, kids graduating from high school and saw success stories, the light at the end of the tunnel. Wow, they'd done it! Guess, what... it just keeps going in a different way. Fluid, growth and movement.
Without the commitment to the relationship, the weaknesses of the other are glaring... part because of hurt, part because it's easier to see where they are weak. It's great when you put the whole ball of wax together. (I'm still no quite there!)
We can make too much of this question of who is/was the a**hole in the marriage. This is why if and when you reconcile, you have to agree to not bring up the past anymore. I can say without a doubt that when my H was having his affair, he was an a** to me. And now that we get along, he is a nice guy. He is accommodating and thoughtful. If I spent time remembering what an a** he was and assumed that that is who he is, then we wouldn't and couldn't get along. And probably the same is true for me. To get along we have to allow the spouse to be a different person than they used to be.
I am so ready to put the past behind, but I never see my WAS doing that both for her side or mine. I don't see it, but maybe it can happen. I don't see her allowing me to be a different person that I used to be. Interesting post though.
H35 W34 S4 | T-10 yrs M-6 yrs WAW said M over 04/09 | Living separate since 09/09 Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3
That was one of the rules of fair fighting that they taught us at Retrouvaille. During the weekend you had the first night and the first morning to discuss the past, and after that it was done and not to be brought up again. It is a wonderful rule.
Going over the past, it does help heal, at first. After some point, it just keeps the wounds open, the very same ones it supposed to help heal... When you ask a question over and over again, and the answer you have come up with, is always the same, but still doesnt "cover" you because "it is not fair, it shouldnt be this way, how did we end up like this etc etc ", you gain NOTHING going over this because you have thought of everything possible, then..., it's just beating a dead horse. Time to drop it. Put it to rest. At some point you have to know when it is healthy for you to stop...
Quote from Robert Evans' "The Kid Stays in the Picture":
"There are three sides to every story: my side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently."
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
The Dawg with a very nice pull! Yes, yessssssss, yesssssssssss!
Interesting quote to bring up; was just having this discussion with a book agent re: the nature of memoir (i.e., the James Frey thing). People expect memoirs to be "true" -- but the truth, pun intended, is that they're only true for that moment.
What is the truth of this situation? One of the key questions in Peaks and Valleys. A better frame might be "what is the truth in this moment?" Because if we're all to be believed, Truth is an abstraction. It has no corporeal presence.
This all sits very nicely with me, being an SP (secular-progressive) and a Constructionist (in philosophical/epistemological terms) to boot. Which means that, as Giambattista Vico said, "Verum ipsum factum" -- truth itself is constructed. Or, in Kierkegaard's formulation, "truth is subjectivity."
This does have a way of confounding the notion of the 180, though. Since, if there is no True Starting Point from which one can turn, when does one know one has turned 180-degrees?
