Must've Been That Mojo Boogie

[Greek]

Dangerous thoughts indeed.

Dangerous...b/c everyone is re-writing history - even the LBS - if Truth is relative.

Were you happy at that moment your were photographed or not? That it went south does not change that. What was she thinking/feeling? Hers to answer. Just b/c you THOUGHT she was happy and now you THINK she might not have been - does not a lie make. WAW have enough to answer for without being saddled with "our whole happy family life was a lie." Not fair.

I am truly sorry for I know what looking at pics can do - was just working through a box of them myself today and played with this idea of "I wonder how much of my soul/mind/heart knew that our tailspin was coming when I said 'cheese'." Here's some Truth for you - you don't know what you don't know...until you know it. And when I looked at those pictures of me as a younger mother, heading out on the path that would take me to the point of walking out of our home, I DIDN'T KNOW...until I knew. Those pictures, those times were not a lie. But those days accumulated and achieved a definition over time b/c of neglect or misuse or misunderstanding, until...I knew. At the point of knowing, living with it would be a lie. But the days leading up to the bomb? Who knew?

[Thinker]

Dangerous thoughts. For think about what that implies about DB'ing. "I want him/her back." No; no you don't. You want him/her back now, perhaps; yesterday, perhaps. But tomorrow? Who knows? And as for him/her, who is that? What is the truth of that person? You can't know -- indeed, s/he can't know. And where does that leave you? As if cast adrift on an unknown sea, able only to set your course for the current tide.

Dangerous thoughts indeed.

Hi SP,

Seems like you are confronting the challenge that has confounded me for months - how to be and remain detached (and accepting of the idea that D is likely), while at the same time keeping your heart open to the possibility of reconciliation.

It is hard to detach when you are watching someone actively leave. It gets easier when you realize that maybe this isn't such a bad thing for yourself after all and start seeing the recent actions of your S for what they are. Once they stop running and start taking steps back toward you, however, that is where I (and many others here) have had absolutely the hardest time. Most people either stay detached and harden their hearts, or embrace the potential of reconciliation and lose all detachment. The ambiguous area in the middle - detached but open - is my emotional struggles lie.

I welcome you (back) to the middle road - as you once said it "to life in the gray".

Cheers.

[SmileysPerson]

I'm not sure if living in the gray is the same as the middle road, and I'm not sure if I'm detaching-while-remaining-open.

I more or less just interested in playing with this idea of the Truth of a relationship. Tonight WAW was a bit down on herself, which in general I don't like to see in anyone, so I told her that as much as it would suck to be me in that moment, I'd embrace the suck if she wanted to call in the middle of the night just to vent. I'd listen, I'd say those comforting things one says, and it would be a familiar ear. She didn't take the offer up, of course, but I was glad to have made it.

But the proximate cause of her down-itude was her claim that I was the "only man who was ever attracted to [her] and who ever loved [her]." Now it's easy to dismiss as so much WASpeak, pity-party stuff intended perhaps to get me to leash The Mouthpiece, but that isn't the first time she's said it in the course of our 22 years together. Indeed, it's been a recurring theme for her in times of stress.

So I'm not leaping to cloud 9 or leaping off the bridge or even giving it more than its due as a sentence, as an expression of her POV at this moment.

But it's a curious reflection of what her Truth(s) could be -- if one felt this way, why abandon it? Because the Truth is you don't really feel you need those things (attraction and love)? Are you rewriting for the moment only, because Signore crapped out and The Date That Wasn't wasn't all it was(n't) cracked-up to be?

Or is WAW doing what we here in the DB world do? Is she honestly re-evaluating? And what answers might she get?

I sometimes wonder -- in fact, had this discussion with @Thinker in the alt -- if we don't sort of over-estimate our culpability in these sitch's, we DB'ing LBS's. @Aliveandkicking was railing over at her place about Expensive Attorney who, some 30 years after his D, remains convinced that the Fault Was All Hers -- something that offended @alive's DB'ing sensibilities.

But what if he's right? One weakness, it seems to me, of the DB paradigm is that it presupposes fault. Obviously you did "something" wrong, you LBS you, else WAS wouldn't have split.

So we become hypersensitized to find fault in ourselves -- to facilitate The Changes That Must Be. But what if there really isn't anything wrong? What if WAS is -- plain as day -- just an a**hole?

What if the "wrongs" I identified as part of my self-evaluation are really not part of the Truth of the World of WAWcraft?

Or what if they were, on D-Day, but are no longer? That's what I mean by moving targets? What if WAS has a laundry list, a coffee-shop rotating pie display case, of grievances, all of which are part of her/his "Truth" but none of which or few of which are part of our "Truth" - and from among which WAS picks or chooses as needed (or at whim)?

The marriage, the divorce -- are they, as the Bard had it, "neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so"?

Darkly they are, these thoughts; darkly darkly.

[Kettricken]

"Happy" almost becomes a ridiculous word in this context. It's like "love". It means, what? IRL, rarely are those concepts reducible to happy/not happy, love/not love.

So maybe the day that picture was taken she was feeling bereft, empty, malnourished in her marriage ... but also she was maybe feeling joy and comfort, trust and friendship in the familiarity of her family.

I can remember days in the middle of our struggles when I had no idea how it was going to turn out, if I was ever going to get what I needed from the relationship; those days could *still* be and often were full of joy, laughing my head off at some mutual silliness with my h.

So when you (humanlike) are looking in the rearview mirror at this chaotic mix of seemingly-contradictory emotions, what determines which ones stand out, seem "real"? Nothing more than whatever emotional filter you happen to be using at the time, be it "We are best friends and co-parents; nothing more", "We have a great marriage and I adore you", or "Everything sucks and I never loved you". Which probably explains a lot of the (really infuriating) WAS rewriting and general flipfloppiness. IMHO.

[Kettricken]

Ultimately, you are the only one who *definitely* has to live for the rest of your life with whatever kind of spouse/parent/person you are. Which of your identified "wrongs" (if any) also feel like an authentic part of *your* truth, stuff you'd for realz like to knock yourself upside the head for now? Time spent working on *that* stuff isn't wasted in any universe.

[aliveandkicking]

I sometimes wonder -- in fact, had this discussion with @Thinker in the alt -- if we don't sort of over-estimate our culpability in these sitch's, we DB'ing LBS's. @Aliveandkicking was railing over at her place about Expensive Attorney who, some 30 years after his D, remains convinced that the Fault Was All Hers -- something that offended @alive's DB'ing sensibilities.

But what if he's right? One weakness, it seems to me, of the DB paradigm is that it presupposes fault. Obviously you did "something" wrong, you LBS you, else WAS wouldn't have split.

So we become hypersensitized to find fault in ourselves -- to facilitate The Changes That Must Be. But what if there really isn't anything wrong? What if WAS is -- plain as day -- just an a**hole?

What if the "wrongs" I identified as part of my self-evaluation are really not part of the Truth of the World of WAWcraft?

I don't even know where to start with this. Now we are questioning if each spouse has culpability and/or things they need to work on?

As for the L being "right"...he was a pr*ck so ya, he was "right" in his mind perhaps but thought nothing of the casualties involved in his determination that his W was all wrong...she died of cancer and he persists in discussing with a complete stranger how she would never "let it go" and she wouldn't talk to him, and he still doesn't waver, doesn't ponder if perhaps he had some involvement in her feeling so betrayed and disgusted that she refused to ever speak to him despite the fact that they had two kids together (hey, what's her problem??)...

And when he showed me (a woman who was in tears and frightened by the prospect of my children suffering in all of this and being broke) photos of his property in Hawaii and his blonde, busty trophy wife on their most recent ski trip, I couldn't help but conclude that this is one self-absorbed, oblivious Mother-F8cker.

Oh and the part about his step-daughter being a "nightmare," ya, nice guy, I'm sure he was great in his previous marriage.

In many ways, self-assessment has its precariousness and pitfalls. But there is no question that we have a duty to improve ourselves.

As for "But what if there really isn't anything wrong? What if WAS is -- plain as day -- just an a**hole?", Huh? After all this SP, you were just perfect and she's the a**hole?

This is crazy making.

"Tonight WAW was a bit down on herself, which in general I don't like to see in anyone, so I told her that as much as it would suck to be me in that moment, I'd embrace the suck if she wanted to call in the middle of the night just to vent."

Ok, for one, pity is, according to a wise person here on the DB, lower than contempt so your desire to assuage her suffering because you don't like seeing it, is kind of dysfunctional IMO (but coming from me...). You should not "embrace the suck" in that way IMO...you should take care of yourself, especially because you seem to be getting clearer that she may just be an a**hole.

[Gypsy]

Hey Smile Guy..

Only a year and a half since the bomb, seven months since the divorce was finalized do I understand what 'beating a dead horse' means.

No matter how much I look to understand, search for the 'ah ha' moment that makes all this make sense, it does not matter. The horse doesn't get up, doesn't change no matter how hard I try. It didn't matter that I believed in the core which our union was based on, on its deep soulful truth. That horse died in hubby's eyes and there was nothing I could do to resurrect it.

Yes.. changes are great. Feeling the burden of what was 'off' lift to free the essence which was squelched with egg shell walking, passive aggressive behavior. And it feels that way for both individuals of the marriage.

The now is what matters. I, too, would come across letters he wrote expressing his love and appreciation for what we shared, pictures of a joyful family. "See.. it's not a lie. He did love me!" I even came across a journal he did during our honeymoon. Love, joy, passion.

The sad truth is that somewhere we all gave up, bit by bit, and lived a life of unwitting tension, doing things that 'seemed' right and caring whose core was relief based on avoidance.

The dead horse is the past. This is the present. Is the house too expensive? Sell it. Begin again. After all, if as a couple you had a significant loss in income it's something you'd consider doing.

You can do whatever you want. Be as morose, sad, mourn, roll your way, do the mojo dance, make whoopie. It's all part of the process, some of which sucks big time.

Your wife whining over her fear of no other man being attracted to her is her problem, not yours. You with your caring ear in midnight dulcet tones will not 'fix' her low self esteem and whatever drove her leave.. not just recently but over the past several years.. both of you avoiding the marital bed, intimacy. Your willingness to be 'there' in that way works against you. Stop volunteering. Let her initiate. If and when she does, let her do all the talking. Be the first to hang up, leave. Stop trying to be the hero.

Your son's statement about loving you.. just not as much.. what a gift. You are THERE, you are safe, you are not going anywhere. Kids need both parents, whether together or apart. A mom is a mom is a mom... and there's something about mommy's. His mommy left, a mom you describe as stilted at motherhood. Children are fixers and martyrs, too. He needs her to be 'safe'. Be proud you both maintained an environment that allows love for both of his precious parents.

The core to healing is.. stop all the thinking, pondering, perusing the past. It is what it is. The present, living a life of giving out what you want to receive, approaching experiences with no expectations, no intentions allows tremendous growth, great freedom.

Stop.. just stop.. being her emotional confidant. That's what married couples are. She has to stand on her own two feet, walk the walk and truly deeply choose which path she takes. And Smile.. she is becoming a more evolved mom, she will find another man. You're not there to fix. You're here to be you, the best you ever.. with or without her.

Your choice.
Her choice.

Choices made independent of one another which leads to new beginnings together or apart.

A spouse leaving is the ultimate kick in the ass, the supreme wake up call. Turn off the alarm. Get out and move forward.

*hugs*

[SmileysPerson]

@Gypsy:

Stop.. just stop.. being her emotional confidant. That's what married couples are.

True enough, though it seems to me that when you share the responsibility for the happiness and well-being of 2 children, one has a certain investment in the emotional well-being of the parenting partner. That is to say, if s/he's not well, then the kids by definition are suffering. So one has an interest -- not a responsibility -- in helping to preserve that other half of the parenting team, no?

She has to stand on her own two feet, walk the walk and truly deeply choose which path she takes....she is becoming a more evolved mom, she will find another man.

Of this there is no doubt.

You're here to be you, the best you ever.. with or without her.

Of this, too, there is no doubt. And as for me, I have no doubt whatsoever about my future romantic life which, I expect, will be launched much, much sooner rather than later, and yay for my team!

@aliveandkicking:

You have missed, almost entirely, the point. When I referred to the lawyer guy, I was using him merely as a metaphor -- I don't really give a dam about his situation one way or the other.

But the larger point remains, and gets to the challenge I issued in my last thread -- namely, since we male LBS are constantly being told we weren't "man enough" in the marriage, doesn't it stand to reason that the female LBS simply wasn't "woman enough"? Now not too many people picked that up and ran with it, for obvious reasons.

But the point remains. This mode of working -- this DBology -- is predicated almost entirely on the supposition that YOU, the LBS, f*cked up. That you're "no good" as you are. So you work and you work to identify all the ways you f*cked up and fixed them.

But what if, from the WAS's true POV, none of those things mattered a bit? Doesn't that risk taking on far more responsibility than is perhaps warranted?

What if WAS walked just because WAS sucks as a person -- what if the pain of this situation is that LBS is discovering just how rotten a piece of work WAS really is as a human?

That's possible, isn't it? Not in every case, perhaps; maybe not in most cases? But isn't it possible that WAS walks for no reason other than WAS him/herself?

Dangerous thought, though, because it would mean at the end of the day there's almost nothing, absotively-posilutely nothing, LBS can do to "save the marriage." Because in that scenario the D ain't about LBS -- it's about WAS and WAS's personal suckitude, in which case the LBS should hallelujah and thank WAS for the gift of self-awareness.

It's not that the self-evaluation LBS does isn't useful or beneficial -- we see lots of examples of that hereabouts like @Gypsy, for example. But it's that it runs the risk of being done from too negative a frame -- and any life coach will tell you that if you do something out of a negative place those changes won't really "stick." For one, it's a recipe for further co-dependency.

And, for an even bigger kick in the head, those changes could theoretically run the risk of being counterproductive.

After all, I'm making all these changes to address the shortcomings in my now-dead marriage. What if That Which WAW Disliked proves to be the same set of characteristics that the Next Mrs. SP would otherwise like? What if I'm changing all the "good" things in me for the Other Next Woman simply in the name of fixing them because, in her "truth," they were "bad" for the Last Now Dead And Gone Woman?

Unless we assume there is some kind of Modal Relationship such that my bad characteristics in Relationship 1 would also be bad characteristics in Relationship 2, as WAW put it when first seeing and dismissing my changes, "Don't be the man I wanted you to be now -- my taste in men isn't like a normal woman's."

(And just for the record, @alive, not everything I say here is meant to be taken literally -- this is a good place for playing with ideas because there are a lot of interesting and smart people here, like my esteemed colleague @Gypsy above.)

[SmileysPerson]

@Gypsy:

The core to healing is.. stop all the thinking, pondering, perusing the past. It is what it is. The present, living a life of giving out what you want to receive, approaching experiences with no expectations, no intentions allows tremendous growth, great freedom.

This I take exception to. From my POV it's backwards. I would never have healed from the war had I not thought about, pondered upon, and perused the past.

And if we take @Greek's very, very insightful post above at par-value, which I think we should do, then "it isn't what it is." It's what we make of it. That is what strikes me as being the inherent subjectivity of "Truth" -- there isn't any. What was true in that photograph a year ago is Truth -- a year ago. But it isn't Truth now.

From my POV, one must think, ponder, peruse in order to heal. That is not the same, however, as letting the past dictate the present. It is not the same as living in the past. But to not unpack it, blow the dust off it, and sort of turn it around in the light to appraise it seems to me to be a recipe for (future) disaster.

The sad truth is that somewhere we all gave up, bit by bit, and lived a life of unwitting tension, doing things that 'seemed' right and caring whose core was relief based on avoidance.

This is definitely something I can get behind. It is, from my POV, the "real" Truth of DBology -- which is to recognize that there is shared responsibility, shared culpability, shared failure. And the Getting There is very important -- like all the newbie posts, my "life" here in the DB world started off with a poison pen directed foursquare at myself.

But now I'm inclined to give myself much more of a break, 6 months on. Now I'm willing to point that poison pen at WAW, to use it to highlight her failures (from my POV). Without getting into too much detail, suffice it here to say that in two major instances there were things that mattered a great deal to me -- one of which is all the "stuff" that makes up my job -- in which WAW took, never once, the slightest interest.

Not even a polite, "what are you doing?" or "what is that about?" It was as if my work, my world, didn't even register. Now I realize that that was a profound hurt to me. I mean, here I am working these crazy hours to accommodate her professional needs and still care for the two children. She comes into the home office and sees me hunched over the drafting table or the desk, surrounded by books and papers; I'm going to professional meetings, being asked to write book chapters; I'm being invited to address gatherings, and I take redeyes and flights that get back in the early morning and I forgo the touristic opportunities associated with places in Asia and Europe just to minimize the impact of my life on her professional life.

One example -- I was asked to speak to a meeting in Cairo. I left Thursday night, arrived Friday night, took the meeting Saturday morning, left Saturday noon, got back Saturday morning. I'd never been to Cairo and haven't been since. The only pyramids I saw were through the window of a plane. My neighbor couldn't believe it -- most people go camping for a weekend, he says, but you go to Egypt!

And not once -- not once -- does she say, "What are you going to talk to them about?"

So were there 1,001 things I could have done better, more reliably, in the marriage? Sure. And some of them I can fix, some of them I can be wary of in the future, some of them were situational and, to borrow your phrase, are what they are.

But.

And to me this is very important.

But there were a 1,001 things WAW did, as well. And those things tend to be silenced in the DBology. Silenced because, in a literal sense, there's nothing you can do about them.

But it seems to me that you should absolutely be aware of them, not only because they impact your DB kung-fu in a myriad of ways, but also because they are part of the Truth of the relationship.

And if you take those "past" things out, and dust them off, and look at them in the light of day, you might -- just might -- learn some things about yourself. And the rose-colored glasses might no longer be so useful when looking at WAS.

Because maybe in some / many ways -- and maybe in some or many important ways -- WAS just might not be what you thought.

[aliveandkicking]

(And just for the record, @alive, not everything I say here is meant to be taken literally -- this is a good place for playing with ideas because there are a lot of interesting and smart people here, like my esteemed colleague @Gypsy above.)

Hey SP, I'm not going to be offended by the implication there. I obviously hit a nerve. I don't think I was going with a literal interpretation I was more trying to illustrate how the assignment of blame and the extraction of "truth" is too subjective to be reliable. We probably agree.

And, I agree that beating oneself up is useless and we tend to polarize our Ss by being over-analytical in the face of their apparent lack of consciousness (that happened in the R too). So, ya, lightening up, letting it be, balancing the scales (at least in one's mind) a bit can help.

I also see so much WAS dissecting here that I doubt any of us really subscribe to the belief that they're awesome and we just s*ck. Obviously, the WAS is where he/she wants to be and may even be pre-wired to go.

I can't see worrying about changing something that might hypothetically appeal to the next Mrs. SP. You change the things that YOU feel you need to change for your own well being. The next Mrs. SP will fall in love with you where you are at that point.

Sorry if I irked you.