Waiting More Than a Dozen Years

[Bagheera]

It seems that my initial observation, that this is a no-win situation, remains accurate and there is little offered here.

The standard operating phrase around here is, "Change your relationship by changing yourself."

Try this, please. Go out and get a copy of Dr. Glover's book and read it. If it doesn't apply to you, then we'll move on and see what other avenues can be explored. This is an on-line support group, and we ARE here to help, and to be helped by others.

It might also be helpful for us to know what your past marriage counselors said about your relationship. How long did you see them, and what was their approach, both with you and with your wife? How did they diagnose your case?

You also mentioned that your wife accuses you of passive-aggressive behavior, and that you don't know what that means. There are a collection of articles about the "passive-aggressive husband" or the "passive-aggressive spouse" out there on the web -- just Google it. I'm not saying that this applies to you, just suggesting that you research it and see.

SELF-help is what this site is about. Use us and keep talking to us.

-- B.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

No, you didn't expect it or agree to the sexless-marriage arrnangement, but it got handed to you anyway, irregardless of your own thoughts and desires. SHE broke the marital arrangment, SHE broke your marriage vows, and yet SHE expects you to just keep on, hangin' on.

At what point do you finally say "Enough is enough!" and put your foot down? At what point do you ask her, "Alright -- if not with you, just WHO am I supposed be intimate with and have sex with? Because I absolutely refuse to live out the rest of my life without it: this issue is now a NON-NEGOTIABLE item to me. I've been patient with you for a long, long time, but my patience has now run out."

Before you just decide to quietly become a Walk-Away Spouse, which is one of two potential outcomes that I see for you right now (the other is to remain in the marriage, silent and miserable), you owe it to yourself and your wife to confront her over this issue, so that she knows, without doubt, exactly why you are considering leaving. She may decide to do nothing about it -- in which case you can leave wiht a clear conscience. But she also might surprise you and decide that her relationship is worth saving. You won't know unless you directly share how you are feeling with her.

I went back and looked at our wedding vows (I have the videotape) and there is nothing in there about the continuation of sexual relations as being a condition of marriage. There is "forsaking all others," as well as "in sickness and health" and "to death do us part."

So, your argument that SHE broke the marriage vows are based upon some sense of fairness (that there is something wrong that needs to be fixed) and that there is a non-negotiable expectation/right to sex within the marriage.

There is a single word description for males when this "right" is put into action. Are you sure that is what you wish to advocate?

We all have the freedom to act unilaterally. Again, the formal negotiation over this issue took place over 8 months. We had clear rules of negotiation between us and each of us had the ability to unilaterally end the negotiation. What neither of us put off-limits was a "no-sex" alternative. Maybe that was a mistake in setting the limits. Or maybe I simply did not allow myself to think this a very real possibility.

But that is all "past." What is present is an awareness (on her part) that I am withdrawing and withholding, that I am actively disengaging. I now answer with "I don't know" or "I have nothing I wish to share on that," if I say anything at all, rather than expressing an opinion, an observation, or sharing some knowledge I hold. As a therapist, this may have her worried, but I am not certain.

Finally, I would not use the word "miserable" to describe the condition I encounter. I know "miserable" and this is not it. Silent, yes. I cannot answer the question as to when I say "enough is enough." Apparently, I am able to go much further than most.

[Bagheera]

So, your argument that SHE broke the marriage vows are based upon some sense of fairness (that there is something wrong that needs to be fixed) and that there is a non-negotiable expectation/right to sex within the marriage.

There is a single word description for males when this "right" is put into action. Are you sure that is what you wish to advocate?

I was not advocating *rape* in the least, and I think that you know that. So leave off with the word-twisting.

Instead, I was advocating that you stand up for yourself within your own marriage, and begin setting boundaries on what YOU consider essential for your staying *in* this marriage. So far, your wife has set ALL of the terms and conditions, and left you with no options beyond either (a) tolerating the situation as is, or (b) quietly leaving.

Again I'll ask you: what do YOU get out of the current arrangement? It isn't just about the lack of sexual intimacy, it's about ALL of the things that you have given up that you expected from the marriage or that you used to draw personal enjoyment from. It's about the fact that you can't communicate ANY dissatisfaction with the current arrangement -- you are simply left to swallow whatever she hands to you.

-- B.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

First, I decline your request that I obtain Glover's book and read it.

Second, my past experiencet with marriage counselors ended up (over a six-month period) to be all about me and what was wrong with me. I was willing to speak openly and very frankly about any of the subjects that were brought up from my relationship with my father and mother (who were divorced) to my relationship with my first wife and what that was like and how that disintegrated. I'd say that put me a real disadvantage bevause it revealed just how deeply and just how far I was willing to go repair and maintain a relationship.

What never happened was an opportunity for me to express the issues in this relationship. Having two therapist evaluating me, critiquing me, and having me doing these various exercises (ultimately experienced as telling me what was wrong with me) was not a very satisfying experience. There were these varous exercises that we did, particularly things we wrote out. We rarely dealt with anything my wife wrote, just what I wrote and why.

At the end of it, I stated how dissatisfied I was with the process and said that I'd never do that again unless some of the focus was taken off me and put onto her (my wife). My experience was that the issues that I wanted to bring up always ended up being hijacked. There was always the "promise" we'd get to those and yet something else would get in the way of that. As I pointed out, rather than being "closed down" about what I had experienced in my life, I was unflinchingly open and answered every question put to me. It was during this time that I promised to drop the threat of leaving. We had been married less than a year. Threatening to leave was limiting the ability to productively resolve anything, I was told.

You could classify the approach as "cognitive therapy" something which came to me naturally.

But even then the developing mismatch between sexual drives was swept under the rug. There was a big blowup over my keeping precise records of what was and was not happening (I'm sorry, the empirical data was what it was, observed and documented). And to the limited extent that developing mismatch was discussed, it was a symptom of something else and it all landed on me, despite my protests ("But, I'm not the one withholding affection!").

The passive-aggressive accusation came early in our relationship (I know what it means now, but 23 years ago I had no clue when she leveled that charge at me. Ultimately, I figured that it was just some clinical psychologist jargon that she threw at me to put me in some "box," something she was having a very difficult time with). I haven't heard that from her in years.

I am not interested in changing who I am, I am interested in being who I am. In the area of sexual intimacy, the capacity for full self-expression of who I am appears (to me, and confirmed by others) "limited." In other areas I have chosen, with intentionality, to limit or put away that expression, at least for a time.

Again, why is this an issue for me?

I am in transition to the next and possibly last stage of my life and asking what's next and is this all there is? Many years ago I read Gail Sheehy's book, Passages, which I thought quite nicely summarized the sorts of predictable transitions we each go through during our lives. At least I could identify with what was written and in what I observed with other people. But if you really want to know a book that rang true for me, it was her book Pathfinders. In those words, I saw and identified myself as I transform through one phase to the next.

Here is something else that rings true for me as to where I am and what I'm questioning:

You've held to your sense of right,
your inner ethics,
even when it's been hard or dangerous or when others call you strange.

That strangeness sets you apart,
it makes you lonely.

What are you going to do about that?


Engage!

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I was not advocating *rape* in the least, and I think that you know that. So leave off with the word-twisting.

So now you have a sense of where and how that conversation went when I turned down the path you were suggesting. I've already been there, long before you even imagined it.

What do I get from this relationship? In a word, nothing. No...thing. And I get to create myself anew each and every day in less than ideal conditions and remind myself who I really am.

[Bagheera]

I am not interested in changing who I am, I am interested in being who I am. In the area of sexual intimacy, the capacity for full self-expression of who I am appears "limited." [sic "nonexistent"] In other areas I have chosen, with intentionality, to limit or put away that expression, at least for a time.

Well put, TEGH. Disregarding the area of intimacy, for now, the questions now become:

(1) Do you want to start "being who you are" within your current relationship?

(2) If so, how might you go about achieving that?

Much of what myself and Strong&Alive have been advocating to you is that in order to get what you want out of life, you need to find your inner, masculine strength and actually begin the self-expression of "who you are" that you spoke of --> regardless of what others, including your spouse, think about it. In essense:

* start being true to yourself,
* improve yourself physically and mentally,
* engage in the activitives that make YOU happy, and
* start living your life for yourself, first.

If you are getting "in a word, nothing. No...thing" out of your current relationship, then why in heck are you currently sacrificing *who you are* for it? It seems a pretty rotten deal, to me.

-- B.

[spellfire]

I love your quote Spellfire.

Thanks! It is not just a quote for me, it is a constant reminder of the kind of man I need to be.

My observation is that the men I meet fall into 1 of 2 categories

1. Control freaks - who usually haven't recognised the extent of their controlling behaviour; and
2. Men who want to be controlled - some to the extent that sometimes I think they want me to be their mother - believe me there is nothing less sexy than a man who wants to be mothered.

Yup, I can see that. I was a little of both actually. Often we shape ourselves to fit the personality of our partner, and so I would swing between the two at times, depending on her behavior (ugh!).

I wish you good luck in your search! It is a rare man indeed who can recognize such faults, let alone overcome them.

What's S&A?

S&A = Strong&Alive, one of the members here on the forums. He offered me good advice, and these lines summarized it perfectly. Thanks S&A!

[spellfire]

Several points.

In your Zen example there are several items worth noting. First, the cup was empty to begin with, Second, and this is really the important point, the reaction of the professor is rooted in the following: "there is something wrong" and by extention whether something should or should not "be" a certain way. Third, the reaction is that there is something to be "fixed."

I have to disagree. The "several items" you mention are not worth noting at all. One has to wonder why you avoid addressing the message, and instead find fault with the messenger.

Every post you make here just shows that your cup is not empty and you are not willing to taste anyone else's tea but your own (yes there are variations to the story, try not to get too hung up on it).

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

There is never a waking moment where I am not being who I am. The same is true for you. The difference from one moment to the next is whether who I am (and who I am is JUST a conversation) is given by my past (e.g., the way things should be, what's right/wrong, what's better/worse, what need's to be fixed, etc.) or given by living in and through the present moment (as in being with what is happening and being in concert with that). It's not about "doing," it's about being, though what I'm doing is a reflection of my being.

For me there is a timeless quality to that way of being AND I describe it as being "half-in, half-out" as in being in the moment and seeing it externally as if there was a video camera recording the moment. Another metaphor: it is the calm in the eye of the hurricane. And mostly that is where I "reside."

Mostly people do not experience their present (or more correctly their present is their past). They do experience being present when they are absorbed in some activity and time passes without notice (a quality of timelessness is often reported), it could be a shared moment with another human being that is also experiencing a similar timelessness). But have you noticed that if you attempt to recreate some expereince that seemed magical in the moment, it is incredibly difficult or it just does not quite compare (the act of comparison is also an issue)? Why? Because rather than being "present" you are being your "past."

In all likelihood the last time when you experienced being present over a sustained period was as a child.

Not so for me.

What it does appear to boil down to is something simple; do I stay or do I go. I know what I get, in the short-term, if I stay. I have some sense of what I'll deal with if I go. This is analogous to choosing ice cream flavors: vanilla or rocky road. Choose.

And even if there is one choice (vanilla), there is nothing to do but to choose it. Your choice is "vanilla." Choose.

Just as Sheehy used the crustacean model of growth and shedding one's shell as an example of moving from one stage to the next, so, too, am I at that point.

I'm headed to Baltimore this afternoon to make a presentation this week.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I am aware that there are certain listenings here and that what is presented is, in all likelihood, presented through those filters. Well-meaning as that might be, there has not been a "wax on, wax off" moment.

It's been about what's right and what's wrong.

It's been about "fixing" (as if I'm broken).

The question is are you aware of those listenings and if not, which of us is really present?

As noted above, I'm headed to Baltimore in a couple of hours and will be offline.