Over the Shock and GALing 6

[MrBond]

Your W is just like mine. When she feels "attacked" like if things get too "personal" she starts threatening or attacking back with low blows.

I turn those around by very calmly telling her that she is getting everything she's asked for, so she should be asking herself, why am I so angry? She goes quiet after that.

Sounds like your W has major self-esteem issues. She wants someone else to validate her existence and looks. She can't do it on her own. Once she started disrespecting you, she didn't see you as a source of validation any more and would seek it elsewhere.

For my W, I started saying little compliments here and there just in passing. Then slowly built them up from there. Even in the heat of battle, there are lulls.

[Sara]

I think you are exactly right here:

She wants to be pursued. She wants to be aggressively flirted with. She wants to feel sexy and wanted. She wants to let go of responsibility and let a man lead her.

It has frustrated me to no end for some months now, because I can see this. I feel it. But I can't become that for her.

Not because of me. I've tried (although maybe I can try harder, more, again, etc.). Each time is received with a stiff emotional forearm - disgust, unhappiness, "Don't do that, I don't want that from you! I don't feel that way about you! Don't pressure me that way!"

And she is escaping into, perhaps not teen years, but who she was before marriage -- her youthful, sexy, dating self. Yes, that is a very attractive place to escape to when real life is stressful, boring, unhappy.

But knowing this still doesn't solve the problem. And that's what's so difficult about it. Yes, you are completely right. But how do you get her out of it? How to you make her want the life she has chosen and built for herself?

I wish I knew the answer.

I can tell you that I believe chasing after men (which is the same as letting them chase you) leads to heart-break, and more unhappiness, but it's a long, slow process to get there. I know you don't want to wait around for that. I disagree to a certain extent with Dr. Phil. While a woman can end up raped or abused by flirting with other men (just as athletes can end up shot and killed by a woman for cheating), that is not the norm. More likely, she will be seduced and then dumped. Maybe you consider that abuse. But it is generally considered normal behavior in the dating scene. That is one of the reasons we all got married in the first place. To stop playing that game.

Unfortunately, she is into the game. She will need to make a mature choice to choose her life, her family, her home. If she doesn't choose it, there will be consequences. She will have to support herself to a larger extent than she does now, she will lose her free time, and she will see her kids only 1/2 the time.

The question is, do you want to force that choice now, or wait until after Retrouvaille?

[Greek]

Can you trust me that she is battling her own demons right now? I don't think it is about what you did or didn't do, at least not anymore.

But re: demons. Oh boy. Yeah. They make a mess. There are all of those little girl slights we felt when we were awkward and insecure and all that FOO mess. Then...as if that was not brutal enough...grey hair (hair color), crows feet (botox and Oil of Olay), metabolism, slower running times, going up a dress size... Awkward and insecure all over again. Except this time, the judgement centers in our brain are fully developed and we CAN find balance ---- if we'll just THINK it through. Trouble with demons though ~~~~ sometimes they shout down our balanced thinking, promote our emotions and deepest fears, and break hearts. Blech.

[aliveandkicking]

Thinker ~
I agree with A&K....about Mrs. Thinker battling her own demons. Who doesn't, really?

But trust ME on this - the other piece is the M you and Mrs. Thinker made together. That would be the things she did and the things she didn't say. That would be the things you did and didn't do. That would be all of the junk under the rug that finally tripped y'all up.

It's not JUST hormones or postpartum or depression or selfishness or any other "hook" to hang this on. It's two people who love each other but stopped loving (action verb) each other. The fall out of that is ... well... that's why we're all here.

I agree but you can't always fix this for someone (or ever really), you just be your best self and IF they have the capacity to meet you there, they do.

However, in my sitch, I am going to push hard for counseling for both of us. For the sake of our kids.

[MrBond]

"I've tried (although maybe I can try harder, more, again, etc.). Each time is received with a stiff emotional forearm - disgust, unhappiness, "Don't do that, I don't want that from you! I don't feel that way about you! Don't pressure me that way!"

Don't do it for her. Do it for yourself in terms of being the man in charge. Do it as if you were single. If she doesn't like it tough. You should do the changes you want to.

Took me awhile to figure this out. My W would say the same things and even "I don't want you to meet my needs!" So I did what I wanted to do because I wanted to and not to satisfy any need of hers.

[Kettricken]

Hey, Thinker, s'up?

[SmileysPerson]

@Thinker

One of her retorts 2 days ago when I confronted her with her texts was to say "Well, you cheated on me for years - with your work".

Interesting. I got a similar rocket from WAW. "You abandoned me; you left me."

Which is a good trick, when you think about it.

[AlexEN]

@Thinker

One of her retorts 2 days ago when I confronted her with her texts was to say "Well, you cheated on me for years - with your work".

Interesting. I got a similar rocket from WAW. "You abandoned me; you left me."

Which is a good trick, when you think about it.

Add this to the list of commonalities...

Mine was a slight variation and a tad shorter (one word or one letter, take your pick)... "You abandoned me years ago."

[Kettricken]

Well, to put my 2 cents worth in ... I've been on the receiving end of that. Not for a good while. But is *sucks*. It sucks to sit on the couch by yourself night after night .... it sucks almost more, I think, to sit on the couch next to a man who has fried his brain so hard that he might as well be on Mars for all the sense of meaningful presence or engagement you get out of him. (No, no other engineer-type's wife out there would know *anything* about that, no sir ....)

I can even almost understand the WAWs who have emotionally detached so completely *from motives of self-protection* in those circumstances that they feel they could never let down their guard again. Understand, but not endorse. If she's got a man who is willing to TRY to reprioritize and reengage, I think she owes it to everyone involved to really give it the old college try herself.

Note: If this was a wife who was simultaneously whining about her husband's earning power/pressuring him to advance in his career .... then her feelings of abandonment have no validity. She made her choice. I mean, her feelings have validity in that they are now facts to be grappled with, but the husband should confidently bypass the guilt portion of the program. IMHO.

[AlexEN]

Well, to put my 2 cents worth in ... I've been on the receiving end of that. Not for a good while. But is *sucks*. It sucks to sit on the couch by yourself night after night .... it sucks almost more, I think, to sit on the couch next to a man who has fried his brain so hard that he might as well be on Mars for all the sense of meaningful presence or engagement you get out of him. (No, no other engineer-type's wife out there would know *anything* about that, no sir ....)

I can even almost understand the WAWs who have emotionally detached so completely *from motives of self-protection* in those circumstances that they feel they could never let down their guard again. Understand, but not endorse. If she's got a man who is willing to TRY to reprioritize and reengage, I think she owes it to everyone involved to really give it the old college try herself.

Note: If this was a wife who was simultaneously whining about her husband's earning power/pressuring him to advance in his career .... then her feelings of abandonment have no validity. She made her choice. I mean, her feelings have validity in that they are now facts to be grappled with, but the husband should confidently bypass the guilt portion of the program. IMHO.

Kett,

Thanks for the insight... Very well put...

My W, for past 5 years, perhaps because of her sense of abandonment, was focused on building her dream house, which would have mortgaged us to the hilt (now we're just hemorrhaging from still owning the lot which we cannot sell), which in turn made me feel like I had to work that much harder to keep up... So, even though we're both to blame, the "solution" to her need (a distraction from her loneliness) only reinforced that from which she was hoping to escape...

If she's got a man who is willing to TRY to reprioritize and reengage, I think she owes it to everyone involved to really give it the old college try herself.

I did more than TRY. I DID reprioritize and reengage, but by then she had sought the attention elsewhere. Ironically, my reprioritization has been observed and noted by the kids. We've reached almost complete role reversal in terms of "familial detachment" and "emotional distance", so I can empathize with how she felt then.

Too bad, because with the "old college try", methinks there would have been a point of balance somewhere between the two, one that would have served each of us well and, perhaps even more importantly, the children we brought into this world could have been served even better.

-AlexEN


-Hey, Thinker, sorry for the hijack... Kett's post just got me going...