- I would like to start, in small ways, proactively acting like a couple again. I would like each of us to make out a list of small things that the other person can do, as gifts, and that would make us happy. You make out a list of small things I can do for you. I'll make out a list of things that would make me happy if you did them for me. We'll exchange the lists and commit to doing several of them per day.
Note: I have tried this before. Her response was "I don't want you do anything to make me happy." I don't want that from you, so I'm not going to make a list.
Last edited by Thinker; 07/16/0904:15 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
I understand and accept if you can not make these commitments because you have decided that you wish to end the marriage. We can make an appointment with a mediator and start collaboratively building a plan for how we will dissolve the marriage.
Once you have articulated clearly and succinctly what you want to happen and how ("leading"), I do not think you should follow with the "but if you're not into it" clause because you have made that clear already. Give her a chance to take it all in, process it and come back to you. For me, it would take all the wind out of it to hear yet again, that I have another option (she knows that she can divorce you). I see no benefit in giving it the tone of an ultimatum. You already made yourself clear. The vibe IMO should be that you know what you want and you have a plan and can lead AND you want to bring her on board.
Reflecting on the rest of your posts, I would take out the talk of D. I think you should balls out and very clearly, fewer words express what you want to DO and of course ask for her input (but minimal).
I wouldn't have wanted a litany of ideas or instructions. Just to know that the game had changed, that H was done with f'ing around and was ready to lead.
Thinker- It kills me that these WAWs are so shut down...I was there but I wanted a Thinker...if she doesn't appreciate this, someone will. I know that is not where you are at but don't be afraid to be you and lead. It is not your responsibility anymore if she hops on board. You know this is your bottom line, you expressed that (good for you!!!) now, you lay out the first planks of the bridge back to you...
Clear, steady, unflinching...I know you can do this.
Reflecting on the rest of your posts, I would take out the talk of D. I think you should balls out and very clearly, fewer words express what you want to DO and of course ask for her input (but minimal).
I wouldn't have wanted a litany of ideas or instructions. Just to know that the game had changed, that H was done with f'ing around and was ready to lead.
You lost me here A&K, Not sure what you mean.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
I think that it is a fine line with someone who has expressed such apprehension. And again, I think Coach can help. But, this should all feel do-able. Does that make sense?
The D talk is just more of the same. You made it clear you are ready to end this nonsense. I think that emanates without you having to rehash.
H and I had many of those convos where I was direct but always affirming that I get where he's at and I am prepared to D and x, y, z...I just think it sort of reminds over and over that there is that other option...she knows that by now. Your tone and demeanor and the words you already spoke can reinforce that you are ready to TCB...I'm sorry, I wish I could articulate this better. Optimally, she will see and feel that you can and will follow through on changing your circumstances with or without her.
I'm going to stop until I can phrase this succinctly and more clearly.
I think for now #3 is the stance you need to stick with. I think you are getting ahead of yourself with all the rest of it. If #3 doesn't get accepted, then #1 is pursuing, and I think #2 is an outgrowth of that decision.
Don't run ahead and start fixing the problem. I'm not saying there aren't things on your end to fix. But the major fixing needs to be done on her end. Until you have willingness to stop digging the hole you are in, you can't fill it up. And she is actively digging.
The ball is in her court. You can't keep hitting it. Once she says, "yes, I am willing to try to make things better", you can move into the next phase of coming up with ideas to make it better. But that is different than if she has the attitude "I am willing to stay if things are better without any effort on my part." That isn't good enough.
The brainstorming is good. But she needs to participate. Maybe read a marriage improvement book together (take turns). We used "After the Affair" by Janice A. Spring. I'm sure there are lots of good ones. You say she doesn't like the exercise of what can you do nice for me. OK, so don't do that one. Find another. Probably she doesn't want you to do nice things for her because she doesn't want to try. Which is why your first and only goal at this point is to get a commitment to focus in, and try.
Peace be upon you, my brother. In what follows I am not going to be the sympathetic fellow that I am IRL. I am not going to be the fellow DBer, the fellow LBS, the fellow veteran, the fellow fellow.
I'm just going to put on my editor's eye-shade and bust out my sharpest pencils, not to "correct" anything but to set you to Thinking. The snarkiness that follows is not "really" directed at you -- you know that, right? Merely at the words. I barely got a "C" in Wood Shop back at Big Midwestern City High, so I don't do 2x4s, but I am reputed to be a pretty savage sonuvab*tch with a Ticonderoga #2.
If that's unfair, please have the mods delete this outright; won't trouble me -- this is your house, after all.
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3)I am sorry, but I can not keep living in the purgatory that is our current relationship.
Value-laden word. Avoid modifiers. "I can't keep living this way."
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It will help me if you help me understand these behaviors and which are the most hurtful, so that I can work on them first.
Blaming yourself too much. What if the behaviors annoyed, irritated, vexed, bored? What if these hurtful behaviors are simply rhetoric, rationalizing and justifying something else she doesn't want to reveal? Take ownership without taking blame.
"Work on them first?" Well (says she) what have you been doing all this time besides riding your bike? I knew these were fake changes!
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I am sorry, I really am. I do not intend for this to continue or reoccur.
Implies she wouldn't accept your apology at face value -- no, I'm really sorry. "Recur," not "reoccur." (Of course that's writin' and not speakin' -- just FYI.)
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Please make your decision as to whether you want to stay and work on the M based on what will trulybe best for you, taking everything into consideration.
As opposed to what will "fakely" be best for her? Mightn't one suggest that she's already decided "what will...be best for [her]"?
Gilding the lily. Why should she take "everything" into consideration? Why can't she make a decision based only on This or That?
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My clear desire, based on what I think is the best choice for all of us, is to do what we have not yet done, and actively work on improving our relationship. We have built a family together here, and you are part of that family - an important and valued part. Despite all of the pain and bad feelings that have built up between us, that family is worth fighting for.
"whatI think is the best choice for all of us". Well! Who died and made you Sheriff? What about what I think?
Otherwise too business-y ("Mike, you've done great things here, and I want you to know you're a valued part of our team, but we've decided to give Bruce the promotion.").
Try: "We have a great family, and even though we're struggling now I really believe it's worth fighting for. Even if we just end up where we are, on the brink of divorce, I think it deserves our best shot. What do you think?"
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I am willing ... I am willing ... I am willing ... I am willing ... I am willing ... I am willing.
Sort of all about you, eh? And aren't you swell, being so willing?
"I'm here to say that I will do whatever it takes, regardless of where it leads. And I'm asking you: Can you do the same? For the sake of the kids, for the sake of everything we were? I've come to a place of acceptance, and I'm open to the possibility that, at the end of the day, we'll still wind up in divorce court. Can you open yourself to the possibility of the opposite outcome and commit to finding out which of those outcomes we get?"
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In order to try to fight for our family
Would you not ask these things under any circumstances other than fighting for the family?
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I request the following from you. - Please confirm that you will participate in Retrouvaille in September. We'll send in the registration and check today and commit to attending. - Immediately cut off any and all inappropriate relationships with other men - the two that we talked about, as well as any others that are going on. You know what they are. If the men text you, do not respond.
You request, but then everything that follows demands: confirm, immediately cut off, do not respond.
"any others that are going on. You know what they are". Now listen here, Wife; I am here to ask you to join me in fighting for our family because I love you and want to preserve this great thing that we built, but I'm also suspicious as all hell and am going to accuse you of a variety of unnamed and nefarious deeds, without coming right out and saying so.
Okay, pencil's gone a bit dull. Have to find the sharpener.
With respect to the demands you propose at the end, you're confronted here four-square with the basic problem of deterrence theory: Is your threat credible?
Mutual Assured Destruction -- @Coach's forefathers flying race-tracks in the sky notwithstanding -- wasn't credible until there was a sub-surface leg to the strategic triad -- that is, until there were enough boomers afloat to ensure that Magnitogorsk and Petropavlovsk and all those other Soviet cities on the SIOP could have their rubble bounced once or twice. And counterforce wasn't credible until the MIRV and, especially, the Trident-series MIRVs.
So is YOUR threat credible? If she says "no" at any point along the decision tree, are you REALLY going to pull the Divorce Trigger? And have you signaled that willingness? Have you set your CRM-114 so that there's no going back? That was always the problem with the tactical nuke, wasn't it? By delegating authority for nuclear release to the operational level of command, the President essentially cut himself out of the escalation ladder.
So I think you need to be clear to yourself on this -- if W says "no" are you prepared to be the Agent of Destruction?
If not, don't bluff -- you'll never regain that lost ground.
