H wants a D so we can date...each other! WTF??!

[Trixi]

I have read DR (a couple years ago). I guess I need to pull it back out and refresh my memory.

It's been 2 years since the bomb and will be two years in August since we have lived together. I'm losing steam.

This whole time we've been dating each other on and off. He will get upset (with me or our sitch) and make declarations that we should move forward towards D. I will go dark and within 2-6 weeks, he is back.

As far as I know, he still hasn't actually had sex outside of our marriage. He attempted to with a couple of different girls "half my age" but he was unable to, um, well, the plumbing wouldn't work for him. Which I think is interesting.

Initially (couple years ago), he had this idea that we would date each other and could see other people platonically. Looking back, I see what an idiot I was to say ok. I figured I could 'win' him back. In fact, early last year, he would toss out little crumbs of "you think you're winning me back, don't you?" and I would say "yup" and he would say "mhmm, you might be."

BUT, then I started to "pressure" him about living together again, and he retreated.

He won't let me go, but he won't claim me as his. This whole situation revolves around his feelings. I guess I should catch a clue. Why can't I just let him go? Why can't I just see him as an @sshole and walk away?

[Trixi]

Last night he again said that he thought he might want a divorce so that he could have 'closure' and so we could (possibly) rebuild our relationship. He feels "terrible" for how he is treating me. He is open to having the counselor help us, but not hopeful.

I understand that he doesn't know how to turn the corner and actually work on the relationship and that for him, a divorce would signify an official end so that we could have an official start. BUT, as I told him last night, the marriage/commitment might not mean much to him, but it means a lot to me and he is under-estimating the impact it would have on me. (He seems to think we would just be friends thru this whole thing.)

I said I thought he was being naive to think that we would be chummy if we got divorced and I said "What- do you think that we're going to call each other up and talk about our "boy" and "girl" problems?! No thanks!" and he was like "Well, yeah, eventually; or we would just be together."

He said he didn't want to continue 'like this' because he is afraid I will eventually hate him and he doesn't want it to come to that because "then there would be no going back". (ie, I wouldn't love him anymore and reconciliation would no longer be an option.) I said "And you think a divorce wouldn't fast track that?"

I could tell he was lobbying for me to agree that divorce is the best solution. I said that I thought divorce was the exact opposite of a solution. That I saw it as running away, the 'un'solution.

I said "This is like you saying "I want to fix up the 68 Mustang" and then instead of just fixing it up, you go out and total it first. You are making WAY more work for yourself and possibly damaging it beyond repair" That seemed to give him pause. But ultimately, I am sure it won't give him enough pause.

I said that I can't stop him from getting a divorce, but I'm not going to agree it is the best solution ("Oh sure, put it all on *my* shoulders").

He asked me several times what MY solution was and I said that MY solution was for HIM to pull his head out of his arse and get in the game and quit doing penny ante. He laughed at that.

Anyway, I said that I was mad that he was ruining my camping trip and he said "no, we're GOING on that trip. We've been fixing up the trailer, we have plans, we are going. Period. In the meantime, we're not going to make any decisions either way. We'll go to Counselor and work on getting things 'out'. Who knows what will happen after the trip." (The trip is the last week of August.)

He is very keen on me buying the house I am in. So my landlord happened to stop by last night and we all 3 talked about my purchasing it....didn't reach any conclusions, but we're one step closer.

I dunno. Sunday is our 12 year anniversary. He said over and over that we aren't "really married anyway". I guess I should just give up and make it easy...? Even *I* (who KNOWS there has to be another way besides divorce) am starting to feel like there is no other solution....

[Trixi]

Went to counseling tonight and he maintained his position that the only way for us to ever have a chance is for us to divorce.

The couselor used the analogy that if this was a movie, H wanted "part 1" to end before he could even consider a "part 2".

The counselor wanted me to open up and say how I felt about what H was saying. I was upset and couldn't really express all the feelings I was having.

Actually, I basically said that I didn't see any point telling what I was feeling and the counselor was like "well that is part of intimacy". I scoffed and said "why would I want to expose myself to someone that doesn't want me?!?" C said "well, that is how you build a good relationship. You share yourself." I said "THAT is what marriage is for. A safe place to share yourself. Marriage provides the structure." C said "well, techically you're still married. Maybe sharing how you feel and how this will impact you will make a difference. Maybe not. But you need to give a voice to it."

H said that he would like to hear what I have to say. We go back Monday.

Am I crazy to feel like it doesn't matter what I feel? Is this skewed thinking? I mean seriously-- this is ALL about HIS feelings. HIM not wanting to be married. It doesn't matter that I feel like he is stealing my family from me. That I feel like he is stealing my best friend.

I am sort of feeling like if he wants out, then I may as well just go dark. Feels futile to open myself up.

..Should I share or not share?

[Sara]

You are the best judge of that, Trixi. How does he usually react when you let him know how you feel. I think you can pretty much count on him doing the same things he's done before. If he finds your feelings to be unimportant or annoying, then maybe you're right to say there's no point. If he is willing to work with you to make you feel better, then that would be a good reason to share.

[Trixi]

If he is willing to work with you to make you feel better, then that would be a good reason to share.

Last night he said to me "If this turns into a war, then we can forget about any future for us." (In counseling, when I could finally manage to string together a fully coherent thought, I had said "You want out? That's just fine. Bring it!" and then he said he didn't want a war.) I told him that I wasn't interested in a war, but I would be getting what was due to me. He agreed and said that maybe he wouldn't be able to pay me any big lumps of cash, but he could pay me over time or when he got his bonuses. I told him that I might need him to sell a car because given the economy, how can I be sure he will always have his current job? Anyway, he had said something about this particular car being an investment that he wanted to sell when he retires. And I said "oh yeah? Well, I had an investment in this family and you're taking it from me--YOU are taking away my future dreams." He disagreed. I said "YOU are taking away "us" going to the kids' weddings together. "Us" babysitting for them. "Us" growing old together. So, if I need you to sell the car so I can feel comfortable, that's how it goes with divorce."

(He did end up offering to give me the car (to store in my garage) and the title, if that would make me more comfortable because then I could know that he hadn't sold it and taken the profit.)

I feel so confused myself. I do NOT want to just "give up". (And any sort of quitting feels like giving up.) BUT, on the other hand, he is never going to change; the way we've been going along hasn't gotten me what I want, so I can see that I really 'should' give up. My logical part is okay with being done and moving forward. My heart says that I can't trust him, even though I still love him. My values say that I made a commitment, and as long as there is breath in me, I need to stand for the marriage.

This might sound stupid, but in a way, I feel like sharing how much this hurts would just be stroking his ego. And then there's my ego that doesn't want to agree with him-- just for the sake of not "giving" him that. I don't want to hear down the line "YOU agreed and said a divorce was a good idea." But honestly, at this juncture given where he is at, I don't see any other solution.

[Trixi]

I have "moved" over to Surviving, but I thought I would post this here. I'd be curious what Sara has to say.

Apologies in advance for the length. I had an epiphany as I was journaling this.

Counselor said I could share my feelings or not. It is my call.
His reasoning 'for' is so that my H can know the impact isn't as small is H seems to think. Since H has such an odd idea about divorce (and one that I don't share) it might be good for him to hear my side.

His suggestion is that over the weekend, I write down all the different feelings/thoughts ('voices') I have and then in the next session, using my strong independent 'voice' to express all the other 'voices'. Actually, I think giving voice to all those different parts of me is more for my benefit than for H's.

In my case, I think DB goes out the window at this point. We've been living apart for 2 years. He's talked about moving forward with D several times (granted, he hasn't done anything about it ) but he has never talked about us living together. IOW, he has been consistently leaning toward divorce the whole time.

His complaint is that I haven't held his feet to the fire and I've given him too long a leash. Yeah, he's right...BUT, I also have to wonder where self-discipline comes in. In counseling he said that he "wished he didn't exclude me from his life" and he "doesn't like how he treats me"-- those statements sound ridiculous to me. "I wish I didn't kick the dog everytime I walked by." Then effing quit kicking the dog, you moron!

I'm starting to think that he isn't capable of a real healthy relationship. And I know I need help with boundaries. In 2004, we moved from our starter house to a bigger house and rented out the starter. When he wanted us to move the the bigger house (with almost double the payment) I was freaking out. We had just gotten thru a rough patch and he said to me "This can be our fresh start." Years later when things blew up again he said that his idea (when we first purchased) was that we bought the second house to be his and the first house would be mine. IOW, it wasn't a fresh start-it was paving the way for divorce in the future.

Couple weeks ago he wanted me to get some hair off his shoulders. (hairy guy) His reasoning to me "It's so hot and sweaty. Makes me itch." Funny thing, he went on a beer float trip the next day. (That I only found out about because he got tagged in facebook.) So the REAL reason was for the float trip, not because it was intolerable to have hair there. This sort of "I need hair off my back because it's to awful" happened several times during our marriage and always happen to coincide with him going out on the water with his friends (where girls were)..and no, I wasn't invited.

Beginning of 2008 he was buying all sorts of VERY high ticket items for the family room. (Huge flat screen, expensive entertainment center) and I said "You aren't selling off stock to buy all this stuff are you?" and he said 'no'. Later at tax time, I see that $13K worth of stock got sold at that time. But here's where my problem comes in-- I DIDN"T SAY ANYTHING! I'm too afraid to rock the boat.

He bought an 06 convertible mustang (had to order it) and I found out it was coming from the neighbor who casually asked me if I knew when it was coming. That time I did say something. (It has already been on order for several months by then.)

I could give tons of examples of stupid small "spins" (or ommissions) he has done. The point is that he will spin his explanations so that I won't say/do anything to 'stop him' and/or so that I will help him.
He admits that he is very aloof when it comes to "friends" and has been since childhood. I know him better than anyone.

I did not see a good model of marriage growing up. I think I let my love for my H cloud my ability to really know what is normal/healthy and what is really just crap.

I don't think he is capable of having a real, true partnership. I see that I need to work on my boundaries, expressing my feelings without fear of abandonment...I am willing to do the work. I would have preferred to do the work with him in a marriage. BUT. Clearly he doesn't want to look at himself now. And he thinks divorce will keep him from being hurt.

It is not possible to have the sort of relationship I really want with him. I was patiently waiting for him to get back into the marriage so we could work thru things, but ultimately, that's not what he wants.

He's leaving me, yes. But he is also setting me free.
I'm being rejected and I'm sure in his mind, it's all my fault anyway. Like when I was upset at him going out to bars with his buddies and I asked "how many other *married* guys are there with you? It's not what a married guy 'does'!" and he said "yeah, you're right. But YOU should make it so I don't *want* to go out."

That probably conjures up visions of me being a nagging wife or a awful person (so that he felt like he wanted to go out) but the real deal (per his own mouth) is he liked to go out and flirt. He really, basically, just wants to do what he wants to do. In fact, I think I was way too compliant and understanding.

Well, as much as it galls me and goes against what I believe a marriage commitment is, I think I agree with H that we "should" divorce.

Ugh. that just makes me ill. and sad beyond belief. But if he can't be man enough to do what's right simply because it *is* the right thing to do and I have to somehow 'make' him, then he isn't mature enough to be married...right?

Do I bother to say that in counseling?

[Sara]

I would say it. But that's me. I think everyone is entitled to my opinion.

[Trixi]

Snort!!!

[Trixi]

First off, I had some recent posts in the Surviving Divorce Forum, (well, from mid-august) where I asked if I should start a business with him..oh, and we weren't supposed to talk for 3 months...that lasted a couple/few weeks. (Here's the link to the other post about the biz Do I start Biz?


Here's where we are today; a few weeks ago we went to my girlfriend's wedding and he said stuff like "You're totally awesome and I'm a real jerk" and when we were snuggled up on the couch asked "Do you think we'd get bored with this if we did it all the time?" He says that he is really "thinking" about "us".

This past weekend I did a little "Gucci" on him and went to a concert spontaneously. He asked to come over (at the last second) and I was able to say I was not home and at a concert. The next morning, first thing, he was texting me to see how it was and offering to come over in the afternoon to help me fix the trailer. While here, I mentioned I only had one dessert that comes in a two pack and he said "What?! you ate one without ME?" Me "yup" Him "You ate a blossom without me AND you went to a concert without me...Who are you??" He said it joking, but I think there was a tinge of jealousy.

I had too much wine and ended up being a little too honest and a bit weepy. I did at one point say "retro is next weekend-will you go?" and he laughed and said "no". I dropped it. We did have some good talks that night; the biggest thing being that he doesn't let anyone get close- he is bitter towards God (because a pastor blew him off when his first marriage was falling apart). He used to think that "simple things" would make him happy, but that didn't work out (ie 'family') and he has tried buying all sorts of things and those things didn't make him happy. He's afraid to be close to people.

Okay, down to brass tacks. My landlord needs to know if I am buying the house. Retrouvaille is THIS weekend and not back until April. I think that before I go buying a house, H and I should attend retro.

What would you do? Should I just give up?

[Sara]

How would you get Mr. Glib to go?