WAW and 4 kids

[Deep]

Trying: yeah, the inclination to just beat yourself up for all the wrong things you did to lead the situation to this stage, that helped transform that wonderful woman you married into this thing you are dealing with now, is horrible. And of course, we know now, making the changes that make you a better person is good and necessary, but the beating up part is not going to help.

Also obvious that you can't control her, only your own thoughts and actions. But beyond what Cobra said about offering her choices, my humble opinion is that you also offer her support to gradually see the light. I can tell you the most painful part of the process (to me) was AFTER she decided to stay on in the marriage (i.e. made the choice), but was very clear she was sacrificing her true love and personal happiness for the sake of the kids. Was I thankful for the choice? of course! But could any man live the rest of his life with a woman as his W under those circumstances? Well, not me. But as hard as it is, it finally sinks in that you CAN'T change that either.

So I detached in a way, but showed her I still loved her, and focused on being a better father. I remember once (very calmly) telling her exactly what I would say and do if I was trying to woo her as a married W, or as OM in other words. She didn't react well, but I could see very clearly almost all of it hit home. And I made it very clear but gently, that she is doing nobody any favours by just staying, and she and I both had a right to a loving M.

W is an immensely smart woman, it look a long, LONG time but she finally started waking up in phases..

And yeah a similarity is that we are both very young looking. W looks in her mid 20's. But I was the gym rat between us; in fact, one of the factors that pissed her off was that I was spending so much time there. I cut down because she was right, and the time is spent more with the kids now.

[tryingtilDorR]

Deep:

the most painful part of the process (to me) was AFTER she decided to stay on in the marriage (i.e. made the choice), but was very clear she was sacrificing her true love and personal happiness for the sake of the kids. Was I thankful for the choice? of course! But could any man live the rest of his life with a woman as his W under those circumstances? Well, not me. But as hard as it is, it finally sinks in that you CAN'T change that either.

Back in March when I proved the EA was going on and she decided to try to 'end' it I was in this situation exactly. She was not happy and said she was doing it for her kids, etc. but we both acknowledged that this wasn't a long-term sustainable situation for either of us.

She later drifted back into talking to OM again and things have gotten worse from there. I am trying to get things back to where I had them in March, but with a better plan on my part (DB, Detatching, GAL, etc etc) now that I have learned a lot more about what doesn't work.

I remember once (very calmly) telling her exactly what I would say and do if I was trying to woo her as a married W, or as OM in other words.

When you did this, I take it that the painful part for her was hearing the 'lines' that she fell for which pointed out how weak she had been or the fact that it wasn't all the marriage's fault, but that she was trying to fill a void within herself?

But beyond what Cobra said about offering her choices, my humble opinion is that you also offer her support to gradually see the light.

Yes I want to do this by W seeing how fulfilling life can be with your family intact and your chosen life partner as part of that. It is like what I quoted from someone else - "like trying to get a scared animal to eat out of your hand". I am trying to figure out what that translates into without pursuing her or trying too hard. Tricky stuff but there are great examples out there.

[tryingtilDorR]

I am taking a deep breath and preparing for a 3 night trip accross country with W and D15. We leave tommorrow. I sent her a text msg from work today asking what was going on and whether or not she was ready to go, and got a reply that she was having trouble finding shorts that fit her (she thinks she is too fat - she gained a few pounds but was too skinny before anyway). I broke down and replied about how good she looks at her current weight. I didn't want to sound like I was pursuing, but paying her a compliment that I know she loves to hear (she craves it I think). I think she really needs to hear this stuff even though she doesn't want to hear it from me neccessarily.

My plan this weekend is to act as if nothing is changed and we are just enjoying a family trip together, outside of no displays of affection between myself and W, and whatever conversation she is comfortable with. We will be with a familiar group of people and it should be fun. I also am wary that the weekend could be risky - she may not like the pressure having to act like a 'normal' family in front of others.

I have been doing a lot of reading on the DB boards today and am wondering if I can keep things calm for the rest of the summer, possibly approaching her about joing MC in the fall and possibly attending the New Beginnings workshop. We already did Retrouvaille but the timing was very bad with OM heavily in picture. New Beginnings is 3 days as opposed to 8 weeks and it is something I might be able to convince her to try. Her interaction with OM has definitely slowed from what I can tell, so if this keeps up we might be more successful in the future if she doesn't bail before then? I will be thinking about this over the next month some more.

[Deep]

Well, I think no matter how small, it is a good sign that your W recognises staying "just" for the kids is unsustainable and yet still "hangs around". She's confused and lost, and at this point OM is an important drug in her life support system. It's such a damn hard line to draw, hoping she does not get drawen deeper into the abyss while she deals wit hthe internal struggle. My W told me later that she knew she had to end it, but she could not see where to draw the strength from to do so.

I guess that's where the support bit comes in. But the longer OM hangs around, the higher the risk her dependency on him will grow.

Re the part where I told her the OM lines, yeah, you could see it really hit home. Like I said, W is a smart woman, and although delusional, she was still not 100% stupid. The usual predictable lines about OMW not understanding him, how they fell apart, how 2 friends could start connecting, letting the "what ifs" grow more strident, the token "advice" on how to improve the marriage. All spoken over alcohol if possible. A predictable predator attempt. I actually playacted the part a bit, and ended with wondering what OMW's side of the story was, seeing as how she had 3 kids with him and stuck by him when he wasn't quite so rich.

Hoping your trip goes well ...

[tryingtilDorR]

Her interactions with the OM have definitely subsided and have been curtailed, but there is still contact. He definitely initiates contact with her (text msgs here and there), and a couple of weeks back she initiated contact after snooping through some of my email and found out that I was researching his criminal record.

Water under the bridge now I guess and I just need to mush on.

I am trying to strike an incredibly delicate balance with all this. My strategy is to try to get her interested enough in the marriage through my own DB/GAL/self-improvement, while her contact with OM is more subdued so that she may actually notice. This hopefully feeds on itself and creates a cycle where W has less motivation to interact with him as a result. If I can sustain this kind of cycle I might be able to coax her into MC or a workshop in the near future like I mentioned in the previous post.

She seems to think she can be 'friends' with OM. SIL told her just last week that this is never possible and I had told her long ago. I think she knows it deep down. She knows my position on this - I demanded no contact and didn't get it unfortunately.

W is being really pleasant tonight after I got home from work. I took S12 and his friend to see Harry Potter. Before we left she was initiating conversation, offering to do some clothes shopping for our trip for me, and otherwise seems like she is in a good mood. A definite turn over the past couple of weeks. I hope it lasts - we'll see how she is over the next couple of days on our trip.

[Deep]

Yeah I hear you. You did right in drawing the boundary in NC and it's a line you should stick to. I didn't and although things are so much better now, I know it was the wrong decision. You don't have to force her to adhere, but just understand that's where you stand.

In mitigation, the contact my W has is for "work" and she tells me she has minimised it as much as possible. This was AFTER 3-4 months of this "OM can be a friend" crap. To me, there was a subtle yet huge shift in her attitude from him being a friend to someone she had to deal with for work. I'm not sure when the turnaround happened but there were sudden outbursts. I particularly remember one day soon after our Retrouvaille weekend where she just told me it wasn't easy for her to accept how wrong / stupid she had been. "Look, he's an [censored], and I know he's an [censored] ok. But if I allow myself to see how much of one he is, the more I have to see myself as a stupid, cheap slut. If you really want me to face that every day and beat myself up for it I will, if it helps your healing, because I'm the wrong one here. But I don't know how long I can take that".
And the raw emotion that was said in was very convincing.

Of course, there will be some here who will point out (and rightly) how that could be so manipulative. And I'm way past the point of taking things at face value and/or just trusting like that. But I think sometimes we LBSs have to take a step back and look at what DBing/GALing etc does to us, and ask "sure, it's supposed to make the WAS want to come back, but where do you draw the line and not push her away when she does seem to take small, tiny, steps back". As you said, it's a freaking delicate balance, and you can't ever lose sight of taking care of yourself.

How much do you know of OM? And is there any possible (not destructive) way you can think of to lessen his contact with your W?

[tryingtilDorR]

I know a lot about OM. He is a friend we had in High School that we suddenly came back into contact with about 18 months ago through a chance encounter at a local shopping center. They started talking a lot about the 'old days' and also fitness/exercise. She started calling him every morning to wake him up so he could go work out when she was on the way to her workout and things grew from there I think. He and I were captains of our football team in high school, and my W and his high-school GF were both cheerleaders and we all hung out in the same crowd. I feel like she is reliving HS all over again. She kind of admitted that yeah, I was her first real serious BF and maybe she didn't do enough before that with other boys.

He is single and never been married. He bounced around trying to play pro football for years and never really recovered from that. My wife would be a great catch for him. The guy has a criminal record and most women like my W wouldn't give him the time of day. He is 44 and drifts between living with his mom and the mother of his kid I think. He has a daughter but isn't married to the mom and the kid loves my W.

I tried to get him to stop contacting my W directly but he ran to her and complained, so that backfired. My initial conversation with him was "Hey I would appreciate it if you guys cut it out because I still want to try to make my marriage work and this isn't helping." She had been telling him the marriage was over, etc etc and that Retrouvaille was a waste of time (heard this firsthand).

The good news for me is that she doesn't HAVE to see him like your wife did - there is no reason for them to see each other unless they go out of their way to plan it, but then again he isn't 1000 miles away like you hear about in some of these internet-affair situations.

All in all my W is a great catch for this guy. He was kind of a slob and she motivated him to get back in shape. He doesn't work much (drives cement truck) and is on some kind of disability so he has lots of time on his hands. The sad thing is that she thinks low enough about herself to let someone like this fulfill whatever she is looking for. I (and her family/friends) are hoping she wakes up to this fact and says "what the hell was I thinking?" some time soon, but this guy will keep after her.

I told her the other day the only way this ever ends is if she firmly tells him she is cutting off contact and then changes her cell phone # so he can't text her. She told him she was cutting it out in March but he kept texting her.

When I try to point out what a low-life this guy is she pushes back. I try to tell her that just the fact that he would carry on a relationship with a married woman should tell her something, because she would never do that with a married man (I think she agrees). She then turns it around and says that SHE is the one who is the low-life for pursuing him. I told her that she is playing mind games with herself, because he coaxed her into that position, and as soon as she stops pursuing he does his thing to bring her back into the fold (texting her, finding excuses to talk to her, etc). I found out that HE was the one who started asking questions about whether she was happy in her M, she didn't, so I know he was plotting all along.

I need her to get to the point where she is interested enough in the M that she seriously thinks about cutting off contact with him completely, and that is something I might be able to help with. I am not sure the one can happen before the other however. I think on the one hand she cares about him and doesn't want to be mean and tell him to go away, and on the other she wants to keep one foot in the fire in case she decides to leave me.

It sucks, but it is the cards I have been dealt so I am trying to play it correctly.

[tryingtilDorR]

Florida Trip Update:

I am trying to assess where we are after the trip to Florida the past 3 days. We went there to take D15 to her tournament.

The Good -

1) Spent 3.5 days together - probably the most time we have been together in a long time

2) Had some shared laughs on Sunday when out sightseeing - we haven't laughed together like that in a looooong time (8-10 months?). It reminded me of how we used to have fun together.

3) She sat next to me on the plane ride home (way out D15 sat between us)

4) She slept in our bed when we got home last night

The Bad -

1) Weather was miserable (hot & humid for us West Coasters) making things kind of stressful - it was hard to have fun when outdoors and we were outdoors a lot

2) I backslid on detatchment when I made a comment about how W was obsessive about her text messaging the first day we were there. I made a comment (jokingly) about how I noticed that she was texting even when she walked out of the bathroom, and she got really mad, telling me it is none of my business who she texts and where she does it. I replied that I didn't want her texting OM in my presence. She didn't have much of a response.

3) D15 made a comment that we argue too much and that she has more fun on these trips when her grandmother takes her.

4) She saw a sign that had a funny sexual connotation (D15 didn't get it) and laughed histerically while texting someone about it. When I asked whom she texted she wouldn't tell me, but I got her to admit it was a man. Later I found out it was her boss - no big deal. Howeve,r I was angry when she wouldn't tell me especially since it was teaching my D15 to be deceptive/secretive with your spouse when communicating with others (especially of opposite sex).

4) Most of the time W is cold and not interested in interacting with me much as compared to times we have traveled together before.

Otherwise outside of the flare-up over texting we didn't argue much. I am not sure where things stand as a result of the trip (better or worse between us) but I'll wait and watch over the coming days.

One observation about my own feelings after spending this amount of time with her is that she is NOT someone I would want to spend the rest of my life with. She is mean and cold and bitchy for the most part. I saw glimpses of the person I have been in love with all these years, but for the most part she isn't someone I enjoy being around. I am feeling a new level of detatchment as a result. I am starting to feel like losing her is not a big loss, but breaking up the family is, so it is worth it to continue to stick it out as long as she isn't waving OM in my face.

Maybe I have turned a corner on detatching/dropping the rope as a result of enduring her company on this trip? I have felt like this (to an extent) in the past and still backtracked, but maybe not this time.

We shall see, and if it is happening we shall see if it is too late to save the M!

[tryingtilDorR]

Well things seem to be drifting in a negative direction, but I feel less despair over it than I would have in the past. I have been reading others' posts where successful detatchment is occurring and I am starting to identify with more of these LBHs.

Also, over the past month I have lost the urge to monitor her whereabouts and phone activity which is a big change for me. It is probably because I can't change it and harassing her hasn't helped. For now she knows I don't approve of her having interaction with OM around me or kids and I think she is complying. I am content to leave it at that for now. OM interaction is greatly reduced from before but still there.

As more time passes and I see the situation for what it is, I feel like life will somehow be OK without her if she decides to bail. I t won't be easy, but personally I feel more and more like if she isn't in my life it won't be a tragedy given how she treats me. This is no way to have to live, but I know she isn't herself and I hope that her attitude isn't a permanent change obviously and am waiting to see if there is a break in the weather. She clings to her negative attitudes/thoughts about our M and says that she knows she will not be with me forever, so why try now. I don't say much in response, but would have argued the point with her before. Hoewver recently she also said she is 'trying' by staying for the kids. She is contradicting herself again.

The hardest part is just waiting in limbo, but I derive lots of strength from all the others who are 'waiting' in this situation that I read about on these boards. It makes me not feel sorry for myself and suck it up. If you guys can do this then so can I! The alternative is D which is not what I want if there is any chance/hope to R at some point, but she would have to undergo a miraculous transformation in her attitude.

Sandi - ever since she discovered my investigations of OM and started picking through my email and found the MLC email I had sent to MIL/SIL things have steadily drifted downward. You mentioned that this was a significant event and I think you were right. Maybe it will all blow over in time - we shall see. It is unfortunate because by the time she uncovered all this I had moved on from this activity.

I think she is really sorting out what she wants to do (stay or leave) and the time she had talked about leaving at one point (end of summer) is fast approaching. She is also bringing up more revised history than I had heard before. She is being more distant and irritated this week. She is also saying strange things that don't sound like her (not a new thing actually).

I continue to GAL - I just became president of a local youth sports organization at the urging of many people and know Iw ill make a big difference. I also am continuing with my fitness regimen and participating in a new cycling group. I took up cycling a couple of months ago - W isn't happy about it because that is something 'she' does and I hadn't been interested before and why now when she doesn't want to do it with me, etc etc??

One thing I think has been good is that she is a little more focused on our kids than before the crisis hit. I think her IC helped her with that after I uncovered the EA 5 months ago. She has taken more interest in what they are doing and tried to plan things with them, and I see her trying to be more of a 'friend' to D15. She slept outside last night with S10 and S12, like camping, for example, as well.

One last thing - she returned to our bed the night we got back from our trip last weekend but not since then so it wasn't significant.

[tryingtilDorR]

I had an interesting interaction with W this morning. My first instinct was that I did the wrong thing from a DB perspective but it seemed like it had a positive effect as the day wore on.

She talks to me in a very disrespectful and irritated way in many cases lately, and I finally just got fed up with it this morning after asking her a simple logistical household question, like "did that bag of cat food get emptied last night?". She snaps back when she answered in a way that she wouldn't talk to her worst enemy.

I told her (away from kids) that I am tired of her treating me that way and I don't deserve to be talked to that way in response to a normal question since I never talk to her that way and am always polite. I told her she needs to quit being such a grouch at home and that I don't do anything to irritate her - her anger is all her own.

She has many 'friends' (male and female) that she is so nice to when they call her and the contrast to how she talks to me is amazing. I told her I didn't do anything to deserve it, etc etc and that she is happy to talk to whomever except she treats me like crap. I also don't like my kids to see their mother talk to their father that way. (Sandi - I know I have done things to irritate her over the past months, but this was just an everyday conversation).

Anyway, I guess I decided it was a new boundary for me. Immediately I thought I made a mistake becuase I was letting her get to me and make me angry (even though I didn't yell, etc). However, I noticed that the rest of the day she was much nicer than she had been towards me in many days. I hadn't expected that - I was expecting a cold/frosty day in dealings with the W but we actually had a nice day attending a family function.

Later in the day I told the kids that something they were saying was irritating and that I wanted them to be quiet, and she said she won't say irritating things to me if I don't say them to her (kind of just like I was telling our kids). Deal.