WAW and 4 kids

[Deep]

Hi Trying, no I did not set out to expose her. For one thing, I may have been hurt and angry as hell, but I never wanted to hurt her like that. Then or now. I knew for example if I told my parents, that would have been it. And her dad would have been worse. It got really ridiculous and mind-numbingly painful at some points.

Family and most friends knew me as the guy who got along with everyone, had plenty of women friends, a bit of a party animal (in the past). She was like the vestal virgin sort, stereotyped girl next door, never had sex before M, conservative as heck. So when it was obvious we were having big problems, everyone assumed I was the bad guy in an A. Even my mum for crying out loud. She used to lock the door and hold W and tell her not to cry, to just tell her everything and she'll sort me out, that she was sorry she had a son who did this. And then later she'll really chew my ass over an imagined A after and tell me to be responsible and think of the kids.

It was all so hysterically unfunny. I was so tempted to scream the truth many, many times.

I did tell a few close friends who she also knew, but that was more because I really needed people to talk to. At the height of her living her fantasy of having found the perfect love, I think just about nothing, and definitely not exposure, would have made stopped her.

And talk about hating OM. I would have hurt him very badly if my slipping control was not kept in check, and mentally and physically, there would not have been much stopping me. His M made no difference to him, other than maybe OMW taking a slice of his fortune. He was extremely rich and could not give a hoot. And someone who could have an A while his W was undergoing tests for malignancy of polyps gives some hints to his moral fibre. In fact, he was pretty open, even proud, of his conquests among high end escorts and other As. It was one of those things I could never understand about W - was she that blind? And yeah, I already did my HIV tests, just in case.

I stopped the A just 1 week before they were supposed to go on a 2 week trip to Europe (which in the words of my W as she woke up, would have been "the point of no return"). Availability and presence was not affected much by his M.

Not sure if you read my thoughts on the detachment thing. My very personal view is that you can have too much of a good thing. But I'll also be there at that party if I were you, I don't see it as a sign of weakness necessarily.

And hang in there. Up to June 08, I would have called you insane if you described my current sitch (with its challenges still of course). Absolutely no chance I would have said. Turnarounds when they come can be unexpected and 180 too.

[tryingtilDorR]

Sandi - thanks again for your time and enery trying to help me out.

she "can" have an EA and it doesn't mean it is a physcial need she has

Thanks - this is what she has been telling me. She says things like "it isn't THAT kind of relationship" or something to that effect. However, from what I learned there is a lot of sexual joking/tension that goes on between them in their discussions.

I'm not sure if you mean that you have expressed your changed attitude/improvements or not.

Yes - originally at the Retrouvaille weekend where I kind of had this epiphany about some of the hangups I had and old resentments. Probably the primary time it comes up over hte past few months in discussion is when I make the point that the OM is what is ending the marriage, since my own changes had a chance to influence her if an OM wasn't in the picture, but now that there is one my changes have no impact and just make her more angry. Then again, without the OM I wouldn't have made the changes, so if we survive I will be thankful for the OM in many ways and have told her that as well.

Other than that, I don't blatantly discuss my improvements, I just do them. It turns out that the issue in question isn't even an isssue that much anymore since she has really backed off of her workouts and interaction with this group, but still is doing something with them 5-6 times a week.

Try to think another way you could have found out the information without it giving her the power over you in this situation. Even if you said, "What are your plans?" That would not have made you sound as if you were at her dispensure to use as a babysitter or kick around.

It is kind of funny you mention this since that is exactly how I felt while I was having this discussion with her - like a doormat! There was a party with this same group a while back and she went alone without any kids. However, this party was a kid-oriented one in some respects and the invitation was for all of us.

The Party:

It was a great time, but I didn't have a lot of interaction with the W but we did have fun dancing. I have known many of the people there for many years, but there were also many people there that W is good friends with that I don't know. The interesting thing is that she didn't make an effort to introduce me to anyone, but the women she knows came up to me to meet me. They were probably curious about who W's husband is since I am never around when this group trains or works out. When I got there, she was standing talking to 3 men, and as soon as I walked up they all scattered which I thought was interesting. We took separate cars because she needed to get there earlier to help with food, etc so I brought the kids.

Today I asked her and S17 a question about who one of the people were that I didn't know, and her comment was "If you had gotten more invoved a couple of years ago with this group you would have known everyone" (implying that sine I didn't she now will not LET me know them or get involved).

Why would she react this way? Read on...

My W has a big mental block about my interaction and involvement with this part of her life (her training group). For several years it was a source of resentment - she was spending so much time with these people and would plan her life around training/exercise and my son got involved as well. Everything kind of blew up in the Fall when my son got burned out and quit (with my and all of her family's support) and she was fuming (I think she toook a lot of crap from the trainer also over it) and blamed the whole thing on me for not FORCING him to do it (he is 17 I said and can decide for himself what sports he wants to participate in). Incidentally right after this is when the EA began.

One of my 180s was to start getting into great shape (I had been at one time but got too busy over the years, not motivated etc). I had lost my job at the same time in the Fall, and chose a new one that had a much more flexible schedule so I was able to spend more time doing new things. I told her that I would love to start training/working out with her and this really pissed her off. She told me I would NEVER be involved with that part of her life. She said that is her time with her own friends and it would be the same if I went golfing all the time with a group of people. I told her the difference is that what she is doing invovles many couples as well as single men/women. Golfing is typically a group of guys.

Anyway, she has been so angry about this subject that she won't even answer questions about her daily exercise - for example I ask "how far did you guys run today?" or " what body part did you work on with your weight training?" or "where did you guys ride today and how far?" and her answer has always been (over the past 8 months) "Do not ask me any questions about my training - you are not involved and it isn't any of your business...". It turns out that this was one of the things she used to talk to OM about every day (what she did, how long, how she felt physically, etc) and she was also 'helping' him to get in shape by calling him every day to wake up and work out.

Anyway, she has a lot of resentment built up and I have quit trying to get involved and just do my own thing, but I still on occasion ask her about what she is doing and how she is feeling, but it is less and less as time goes on.

Someday she might wake up and realize that we could enjoy doing this stuff together now that I am in shape, just like other couples. In fact, women at the party said it would be great for me to start coming so that more husbands were there (W didn't hear this which is probably good).

[tryingtilDorR]

Deep - I didn't see your latest post when I posted the above. Thanks for sharing more of your thoughts.

My 'mistake' as I stated earlier was exposing her before I gave her a chance to end it or react in any way. I assumed she wouldn't end it and that the M was over in those first 48 hours after discovery. However, her MIL had already known something was going on with this friend of hers for a while and had been the one to originally tip me off. She also pushed me to investigate and monitor her to 'see what I am dealing with'. So, in her case, she basically already knew.

It was all so hysterically unfunny. I was so tempted to scream the truth many, many times.

This must have been hard - Now that you are trying to R I know your W appreciates your self-control after what I learned from Sandi.

I did tell a few close friends who she also knew, but that was more because I really needed people to talk to.

In my case I did the same - I needed people to talk to who knew both of us (and the OM incidentally). I also hoped that these people would influence her, but what ended up happening is that she distanced herself from them (from the WAW script).

It was one of those things I could never understand about W - was she that blind?

I have the same reaction about the OM and W's feelings for him, and everyone that knows us and OM has the same reaction.

I am sure that you, as I, both realized that the OM was giving her something she thought she was missing. In my case the OM is kind of the opposite of the one you are dealing with - kind of a failure in life that most women wouldn't give the time of day, but he was a big figure in our high school days and that is the connection with her. Overall he hasn't really hasn't done anything with his life.

I think she is reliving something related to our high school days through the EA. I was her first serious boyfriend and we got together just after we got out of high school and married 6 years later. I think she thinks she is 'missing out'. Also, if you read my previous post, her life has been very dominated by fitness activities and OM used to be a personal trainer so they had that connection (and incidentally she is violently against talking to me about the subject - no coincidence).

Also, OM has never been married and has a kid with a woman he lives with at least part time as far as I know. He had told us that they don't have a relationship outside of being co-parents (same thing my wife wants with me coincidentally!). It is funny, but he was 'friends' whith the mother of his kid for a few years while her marriage was falling apart from what I can tell, and as soon as the H moved out OM moved in and they had the baby at some point after that. I told W he is following the same pattern here with her but she is blind.

Detatching - I agree there is some sort of magic balance to this and it proabably depends on the individual situation. If you read Mort Fertel's material, he doesn't advocate detatchment as much but does tell you to monitor how much contact is really effective so that you don't push the WAS away, simimlar to the recommendations you see in DR/DB. It all just depends. I think that doing fun things together is probably a good thing most of the time as long as I am not too overbearing. I had the chance to show at the party that I am a fun guy that gets along with lots of people etc etc (she knows this), and that it might be fun to have me around these people more.

Also, we are going to Florida next weekend with D15. She had been waffling about going but I think she is committed to going now. It will be intense spending all this time together, but it is an opportunity for us to just relax and enjoy the trip with the other families that are going (we are taking D15 to a tournament). These are the things we used to do a few years ago and it was always fun. I need to just be there without putting pressure on her about anything.

And hang in there. Up to June 08, I would have called you insane if you described my current sitch (with its challenges still of course). Absolutely no chance I would have said. Turnarounds when they come can be unexpected and 180 too.

Your story is indeed inspiring. Given how my W is acting the past 9 months I have a lot of trouble seeing how she breaks out of this funk she is in about our M, but I guess you never know what can happen when considering what you have gone through. There has been some serious damage done for sure, but in the end I maintain that I can forgive her if she decides to recommit to the M. OM is one problem, but the other is that she can't seem to have any hope that M can be better. I need to just stick wtih the program and work on myself to make me a great catch for her or someone else.

[sandi2]

Anyway, she has been so angry about this subject that she won't even answer questions about her daily exercise - for example I ask "how far did you guys run today?" or " what body part did you work on with your weight training?" or "where did you guys ride today and how far?" and her answer has always been (over the past 8 months) "Do not ask me any questions about my training - you are not involved and it isn't any of your business...".

I would advise you not to ask any questions regarding her training/exercise b/c it does sounds like you are investigating to a WAW. It would be best not to go near this area. Remember to keep your conversations sparce and let her be the one to start them.

[tryingtilDorR]

Sandi - thanks - I will lay off that subject. I have been trying to, but also trying to show her it is somethign we can do together but she isn't listening so I will stop.

[tryingtilDorR]

Puppy - I was going to reply to you on the other thread but I wanted to avoid hijacking.

Your situation sounds very much like mine from what I have read so far. I am wading through to see what happens next in your story!

I am at the stage you were in May 07 I believe, where you knew there was at least an EA. Your W at that time sounds just like mine. They are very fit and look 10 years younger than their current age (mine is now 43). They share the 'need for validation' and low self-opinion traits, as well as being an avoider and not wanting to get too deep into problem areas/issues. The things your W was saying to you is very similar to what I am hearing lately.

The advice I am really focused on that is helpful is how they told you to not focus on the A. Sandi has said as much to me as well. Now, I know things turned worse later on for you so I am going to finish reading through the story to see how you navigated. I am bracing myself to find out that W is in a PA at some point and I think reading your story will help me.

This is great:

I have been stupid, I have been neglectful, but most of all I have figuratively spat upon the gift that God gave me in Susan.

"Here, Paul -- here is my gift for you. Cherish her and protect her."

I've none neither to the level that He would expect, nor have I been a strong leader in setting boundaries and helping her be accountable to her half of it.

Wanna talk about GUILT, try living with THAT.

I feel the same way right now. I am in the middle of my 'just shoot me' months!

[tryingtilDorR]

Puppy - I am working my way further through your story. Some more similarities:

My Wife's OM connection was also through training/exercise. She was calling HIM every morning when she drove to her own workouts at 430 AM to wake HIM up so he would exercise. I remember her telling me before I suspected an EA that he had lost 25 pounds thanks to her and she was so proud! These calls were multiple per day and totaling around 2 hours of talk time a day before I busted EA in March.

Phone/Texting - My W is heavily into hiding her phone and doesn't let it out of her sight which is completely reversed from how she used to be. I saw in one of your posts that you thought your W was addicted to the texting more than the OM himself - I think my W has a little of that going as well although she did a lot of talking on the phone as well.

Body enhancement - about 9 months before the EA she had breast 'reduction' surgery to correct the affect of age and 4 kids. She went from a DD to a full and perky C. Looks great, but I wasn't happy with the $$$ spent and around that time I thought she was being irresponsible with money. She paid for it with her own money (a bonus and some other cash) but we have kids to put through college and lots of other things to save for. It seems like a few months after this surgery she took a turn on the WAW road for the worse - started buying lots of new clothes, showing lots of cleavage which she never did before and was always kind of hiding her figure. This was also the first time she talked about separating possibly. Looking back now I realize I should have probably been telling her how great she looked and all that instead of complaining (I used to say there was nothing wrong with how she was before and she didn't need to do surgery etc etc and it was a waste of money).

In Laws - mine, like yours, are totally disgusted with W and her current set of choices.

Text Msgs - Unfortunately early on my W was either hiding her phone or deleting call histories/text msgs. I am amazed that you were able to see her text messages for so long! I understood the nature of the EA through a recording I made since they conducted a lot of it on the phone when she was driving to/from workouts (20 miles away).

[tryingtilDorR]

I am finding some interesting nuggets from Cobra in Puppy's old thread that I am dumping here so I can have it in one place. I see some value in these posts in relation to my sitch. Cobra advocates backing off of the hardline pressure to some extent....

This OM needs her more than she needs him. So she is really empowered when she is with him. What are you going to offer her?

Don’t you see that you and the kids hold the cards to empower and respect her more than this OM ever can? But you aren’t taking that approach, are you? Taking a “militaristic” approach and shaming her only works to a limited extent (and only for certain personality types), by showing her there is pain if she crosses “the line.” But the other half of setting a boundary is for her to experience pleasure, admiration, fulfillment by staying within “the line.” Those positive things can come from you. Just putting forth the model of a good husband will not be enough at this point. She is convinced there are plenty of other men who can be a good H. What will make her choose you over them?

I agree with you in part that cutting off relations is the best approach, but there is a risk, and while many have recovered their marriages, many others have pushed it right off the cliff. It feels good for a while to say you did the right thing and the spouse was wrong to continue the affair, but D is still D. If she can cut off the relationship cold turkey, then great, but so far I don’t see signs of that. I think what you have done so far is the right thing. I just think going forward you need to re-evaluate.

I feel like I am in this situation - she has reduced interaction with OM but hasn't cut it off completely and I don't think hardline will make it happen either at this point since I have tried it short of filing for D (which puppy did BTW). She doesn't have the financial concerns that Puppy's W was facing for one - she can work full time and make an excellent living but she is wary of having to work more -her life is too comfy and she values it.

She is still in the house with you. You are still married. Counseling can still fix this marriage, even if she has some contact with the OM. There are lots of couples who have been able to do just this, so don’t think that having her cut off relations entirely is the only path. Is see her hanging on to the OM as not just an addiction, but as a safe haven away from you. Forcing her to cut of the affair might work, it might not. Things might not change until the stakes are so high and the damage so severe that she capitulates or walks. Those are not the kind of probabilities I would want to stake my recovery on. She is addicted because of her fear, and breaking this kind of addiction can be a gradual process.

The point about counseling even though there is an OM around is not one you hear often. I have been wondering if MC would be a reasonable thing at this point, and the one thing holding me back is that the OM is still in the picture. I don't have blatant evidence that they are as involved as they were before, outside of the fact that W has no motivation towards R. Maybe I should consider doing MC? If I asked her she would probably go.

I'm not proposing in any way that you ease her guilt, but she has to have something positive to work toward. And contrary to your comment OTB, I do think Choc has a LOT to prove to Mrs.Choc. There is no way she can be solely faulted for the withholding that occurred in the marriage. Both of them did their own withholding. She is trying to state this. How much truth there is in her version is debatable, but that does not really matter. If she believes it, she believes it, and she must be validated. Other wise she will seek validation elsewhere. Just be careful.

So let her go thinking that she is keeping up appearances for sake of the kids. What does it matter why she goes, so long as she goes? As the issues come out, it will become clear enough to her what the true problems are, but not going at all will allow the fog of denial to stay over her. Her statement about “trying” is just a deflection. If it were over, she would say it is over and she would leave. She doesn’t want to be the bad guy, to be blamed or have to deal with the guilt. This is one way she can justify her actions. But at the same time she is too scared to leave on her own, so she plays along with you by saying she will attend counseling.

Again, who cares what her reasons are. They are all deflections, delusions, justifications, etc. All those ideas will change over time with proper counseling, EVEN IF SHE IS STILL SEEING THE OM. Be sure your insistence that she stop seeing the OM first is not just another morality power play over her, or some way to feel like you are "getting even." That is only another form of escalation.

I know that Puppy escalated to the point of filing for D and that turned the tide. My choices are to push that far (Sandi doesn't recommend it) to see if she breaks and I kind of tried that recently with my ultimatum of NO CONTACT or LEAVE, or just focus on making myself the better choice for her over OM. Cobra (and Sandi) recommend the latter. Puppy's situation is sooooo like my own, but my W has a better financial situation and can rely on herself.

Anyway - Puppy's old thread from 2007 is a goldmine of information because I feel like I am reading my own story.

[tryingtilDorR]

More from Cobra that I wanted to save...

You condemn her for running. She condemns you for chasing. Your actions suffocate her. Her actions trigger your abandonment. You want her to stop running so you chase harder, she wants you to stop chasing so she runs faster (even though she really wants you to chase). You two are in a self-reinforcing cycle that will only lead to destruction of the M, regardless of what those “experts” say. You are using the stick, but I see no carrot.

In the end, you cannot force her or control her. You can only hold to your boundaries and offer choices, making those choices either painful or rewarding and hope she chooses as you want her to (personally I consider this a form of covert control, but that’s an old debate). The self reinforcing cycle can only continue with your input. You have as much power to stop this as she does.

[tryingtilDorR]

Puppy - this blows me away - what a miracle followed by such dissappointment. If my W decides to R I will pattern my conditions after yours and have her follow it:

Puppy's W decides to R thread