Cheaters?

[Clark_Kent]

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

My eyes are open, I actually believe more open that people who think the predator and wayward spouse's decision-making faculties are on an equal playing field when a wayward spouse's emotions are in maximum flux. Michele points out over and over again in her books about the emotional pit that wayward spouses get into...how hard it is for them to maintain impulse control at that time...not to listen to a word that is said and only half of what you see them do...THIS kind of mindset is NOT the same level headed thinking the predator is in...at all.

You're making a great load of assumptions about my situation, none of which are true. I came to this community through the sex-starved marriage board, my marriage is spectacular now, and neither one of us were ever a walkaway. So the anger and bitterness you are perceiving is ... nonexistent.

And your frame of reference and experience in infidelity is "non-existent"...its a dangerous thing to give advice about something you haven't been through or at least experienced heavily in some way...so you will have to forgive me if I am hesitant to agree with your position...you just havne't been there from what it sounds like...

I completely agree with you that penitent waywards who are willing to be honest and do some hard work deserve heart-deep forgiveness, not rage and bitterness. And I also agree that even in their full-on wayward phase, honey works a lot better than vinegar.

I dunno...I found being nice didn't help much either..what my readings are pointing to is actually showing your spouse that you will walk out on them if they don't stop.

I just don't think it's (a) emotionally honest, or (b) productive in the long run for the LBS to achieve that mindset by downplaying the spouse's role and demonizing the "outsider". For instance, I don't accept your reasoning that the "amateur therapist" dynamic with an affair partner constitutes a position of power for the affair partner that they are abusing.

It's not downplaying..you can assert that point all you like, but from my EXPERIENCE there is a diffrent level of capability to think evenly and maintain impulse control when your home is falling apart...Michele's advice in DR again makes that abundantly clear. Sorry, but the predatory party is much more clear-headed when the affair begins than the wayward spouse usually is...just read DR and that should be pretty clear...

It's just too big of a stretch. It takes two to tango, and the errant spouse had choices; s/he just made the wrong ones. Can't that simply be forgiven, as is where is, without having to drag all this victim/predator abuse-of-power reasoning into it?

Again you are just asserting here...and "it takes two to tango" is just a catchphrase, not an argument.

The reasoning as you put it comes from a careful investigation of the social dynamics of affairs...something you need to read up on more apparently...I have over half a dozen books on the subject...how many do you have?

If you want to argue then make an argument. Someone with their partner not cooperating with them...someone terrified that their marriage is over, someone miserable and alone...someone with so little hope they will turn to sometimes even strangers and pour out all the intimate details of their marital problems...someone so desperate for a relationship they will betray vows made in front of dozens of friends and family...someone so upset they will put their children's family in a huge love triange...is NOT in the same frame of mind as some creep who offers that person a shoulder to cry on and an ear to listen. You can't be serious...you can't honeslty think they are both level headed rational people equally capable of making healthy decisions at that ponit...SOMEONE is more in control...and it is usually the OP.

The whole thing just doesn't seem fair, on a human level. Justifying the actions of one's own "tribe" and throwing all the blame on the "other tribe" ... that mindset has led to some pretty disgusting human behavior over the centuries. I don't see why it's any more desirable on the micro level than the macro.

First, I never said blame, and not all of it either. But more to the point, I think putting some emotional intelligence into trying to understand the social dyanmics of affairs is the FAIREST thing to do...it leads to forgiveness...sometimes

I suppose I can understand needing to think that way for awhile to 'get over the hump' of forgiveness, given the level of pain and betrayal involved. But ultimately, to have an *honest* relationship, each spouse must see, accept, and love each other as they *truly* are, dark places and all, otherwise they are just "forgiving and loving" projections, illusions, and rationalizations ... not the real person. That's not intimacy. In my opinion.

Again you are just asserting using the word "truly"..you have yet to make any argument that any of what I am suggesting is inaccurate other than that you refuse to accept it...but since you haven't been there from my understanding..I can certainly gt how you can't accept this...and that's ok...

When and if (and I certainly hope you don't) you are there, you will get this a lot easier...but seriously...think about it...in many social exchanges one person is more level headed than the other. This is why we FIND friend's to talk through things with...this is why we have therapists, this is why we have family...to help us think when its a struggle for us to do so...

I have spent my whole life wrestling with emotions and trying to stay the course of good sensible conduct...as many people do. I honelsyt can't imagine an affair taking place where both parties were cool level headed rational beings...the mere likley hood of that scenario happening strikes me as near impossible.

"Not Just Friends" is an excellent book to help get started on understanding these dynamics...I would suggest you give that a read.