A Wife that has come back? Post Affair feelings ,,

[Deep]

GH: hey mate. Btw, I live much closer to your timezone than most of the folks on here I think. and for what it's worth, I thank you for your support and hope to follow your sitch too.

Regarding "OW", no, we have no contact now. I've found other people to talk to (from my CORE group among others) and while she could still be a friend, it's not worth antagonizing W. "OW" still has my number and email, once in a long while, she might send a message to ask me how I'm doing, but she's been told what W thinks and knows to keep away. I run into her a couple of times a year (we work in the same industry so that can't be avoided) but even then when we talk it's in a group of peers.

DanceQueen, thanks so much for your reply and advice. I understand what you're saying now.

I guess it's time to take my head out of the sand and do what I must. What that is, and how to do it, I can only pray for guidance.

W and I have talked, or at least really tried, about the root causes of problems in our M. So far, we have used support from Retrouvaille to do so, while I have gone for individual counselling sessions (stopped recently). W is of the mindset now that it's all in the past, and I think my first challenge is to bring it up in a non-aggressive way and let know it's not to rub her face in things but for the sake of our M.

Quick update: Just today, W suddenly told me something. The first year after A, we went on some trips together to try and re-discover each other and also took some family trips that we promised the kids. Espcially in the 12 months after A, it was overshadowed by thoughts of OM, the A, negative stuff. Some of the trips were really bad even if we were not fighting, the mood was like a bad joke.

what W told me was she wanted to visit the those places again. I was surprised ... asked her why. She just told me it would be diferent this time, that they were beautiful then but now it would be "really with you" again.

Good sign I think?

[sandi2]

Dear GH31,

I repect your feelings and was not pointing fingers at any "one" post and that is why I made sure I said "some" post that the LBH's had responded. My point in my response to Deep was to try to show some things maybe he was not admitting to himself about his "own" connection with the OW who was very willing and had made it more than plain that she waanted an A with him.....and for him to run to help recuse OW and as he admitted....was vernable to doing something stupid. I just did not see any of the LHS's "seeing" that message in his thread. I wanted to point the fact out that he was not completely 100% innoncent and that he had kept his contacts private from his W until it was finally exposed (by the way I read it in his posts). I merly wanted him to see from both sides.

In no way am I "defending" her actions, but some LBH's talk about how "eviscerating for a man to be betrayed"; it's emasculating. It's as if they are more hurt than a woman due to what it does to their masculinity and I don't think that makes it any worse than what it would do to a "woman" for her WAH to leave her.

I got the impression that Deep was seeing himself in too much of a squeaky-clean picture here in this stitch and that is why I pointed out about his conncetion with OW. He admits that they still contact each other occassionaly and "know how" to reach each other. He "knows" this OW wanted an A with him, regardless of how "he" may have felt about it. He even said that he "was suppose to stop all contacts with OW". Then he says that they still contact each other about once a year. That is all it could take for an A to happen if the OW is willing and he's vulnerable.....but the point is he is "still" contacting her.....even if through the workforce. He should realize and respect no contact with OW based upon his feelings of his own W contacting her OM. This is a two-way street and that is what I wanted to point out.

I was not trying to diminish the damage his W has done. I think she will continue to keep Deep controlled by her emotional blackmailing ways as longs as he succumbs to it. When a woman takes an OD in "front" of her H, doesn't he know that she realized he'd get her to the ER in time to save her? That is why I asked him about it. I have seen this technique used before, and believe me, the W had no intentions of killing herself. It is a "controll" issue. Anyway, didn't mean to get off into all of that.

I am NOT defending his wife and I wanted to make that clear. I am not saying he was not crushed by her A. I simply wanted for the LBH's to open their eyes, b/c it was apparent to me they could not see the importance of Deep's actions were with that OW. He kept insisting that he was not in an EA, but then he kept referring back to OW and saying "what if". He admitted he could have been stupid and let it go too far. So, guess what? He's human too!

No, I'm not defending his W, but it is something to watch when the LBH's gather at one place and start listening to the things they say about the WAW and it gets to be like a "LBH's Club" for WAW haters. I know you guys have never said you hated WAW's.....so don't go off the deep end.....just making a point about how it looks to a woman reading those posts. It's pretty hard to hear some of the things "some" men have to say. A person would get the idea that all LBH's are saints and all WAW's are demons (I believe that was a term Deep used to describe his W). That is just not the case in each stitch. I wanted the LBH's to see that point.

Later,
Sandi

[wolverine1997]

"I think she made up her mind to be married to her husband. And I believe the affair is over. It can happen!"

Are you serious? Didn't she make up her mind to be married to her husband prior to the affair also, like on their wedding day?

He has every right to be suspicious as to whether or not the baby is his. She created that doubt with her actions. She needs to settle his mind on that issue.

He is not de-stabilizing the marriage by questioning her actions, she did that herself with the affair. Regardless of whatever problems they were having prior to the affair, she totally eroded all trust and faith when she cheated. Now it is true that for the marriage to succeed he must begin to trust her but for that to happen SHE must re-assure him and do everything she can to help him to believe and see that he can trust her. By making excuses, keeping the guy around and maintaining a friendship with him, she is doing nothing more than telling her husband that he can't trust her.

And yes, he may want to stay married, but who wants to give up their dignity, trust, self respect and heart just to stay married? If she wants to stay married then she needs to prove to him without a shadow of a doubt that the OM is no longer a threat to their marriage. If she wants to stay married then she may have to choose between her business client or her marriage. These types of decisions, while difficult, are called reaping what you have sown and are the fruits of bad decisions.

[GH31]

G'day again Deep,

I guess it's time to take my head out of the sand and do what I must. What that is, and how to do it, I can only pray for guidance.

You said it.

You mention in a previous post that you want things back to how they used to be. Instinctively you know they will never be until/unless all contact with OM has ceased for the rest of eternity. As Sandi very correctly points out - you came extremely close to the EA/PA black hole with your OW. I am going to call her "OW" because she blatantly wanted to have an affair with you. You used words such as "connection" and "chemistry" to describe what was between you.


Her email saying "I want to have an affair" extremely blatant to a woman reading it, possibly not as blatant to a man and a good many of us would miss that message altogether. I only know from reading extensively about how women communicate and listening to posters like sandi2.

Your OW is a topic of conversation on your thread and this is why you have to avoid her. If your wife informed you that another OM had made it clear that he wanted an affair with her, would you prefer the she avoided any and all contact with him?

W and I have talked, or at least really tried, about the root causes of problems in our M. So far, we have used support from Retrouvaille to do so, while I have gone for individual counselling sessions (stopped recently). W is of the mindset now that it's all in the past, and I think my first challenge is to bring it up in a non-aggressive way and let know it's not to rub her face in things but for the sake of our M.

Bull.

She is trying to convince you and convince herself that it's all in the past but deep down she knows you're suffering. It's not in the past at all and she knows it.

Quick update: Just today, W suddenly told me something. The first year after A, we went on some trips together to try and re-discover each other and also took some family trips that we promised the kids. Espcially in the 12 months after A, it was overshadowed by thoughts of OM, the A, negative stuff. Some of the trips were really bad even if we were not fighting, the mood was like a bad joke.

I cannot believe how much like my own wife she sounds. The trips thing is very familiar. W and I have taken countless trips since she came home and really it's just an avoidance tactic - to avoid doing the hard stuff (like cutting all contact with OM).

[GH31]

Hey there Sandi,

We meet again.

I'll keep this short so as not to threadjack Deep.

You're absolutely right in my opinion to take him to task about his OW, and she is an OW. LBH/LBW - we all suffer more than we ever thought it was possible to without physical trauma. I think women and men experience betrayal slightly differently but endure the same level of pain.

I am really struck by what you've written here Sandi...

When a woman takes an OD in "front" of her H, doesn't he know that she realized he'd get her to the ER in time to save her? That is why I asked him about it. I have seen this technique used before, and believe me, the W had no intentions of killing herself. It is a "controll" issue. Anyway, didn't mean to get off into all of that.

I could not agree with you more on this and no, many of us men simply miss the way women try to communicate with us unfortunately. You yourself have read David Cunningham's The Man's Guide to Great Relationships and Marriage - he explains the difference in communication styles better than anyone I have read so far. In fact, had you not brought this book to my attention I would never have read it.

Deep's W had no intention whatsoever of ending her life and I thought this too when he posted it - it was a cruel and sick ploy to keep him on the hook and to emotionally abuse and manipulate him. A ploy to maintain control of the status quo i.e. Deep living in fear and unease, being around for wife and kids whilst I avoid doing the hard stuff - cutting all contact with OM. There's a word for this - it's called gaslighting.

She sounds so much like my own wife.

Tell us Deep, how did this affair end and who ended it?

[sandi2]

GH31......I really appreciate what you said. I decided I had to stand alone on this one, but guess that never stopped me before. Anyway, it does my heart good to know that one of my DB friends saw things that were almost hidden in the text of this thread.

Thanks,
Sandi

[Deep]

Hi, thanks for your replies again.

Sandi, I was a bit taken aback at the strength of your reaction to my posts. No, I don't think I am a saint or squeaky clean, nor am I obssessed with looking that way. And frankly, if I felt I did stray, I'll just say it. Speaking for myself as a guy, it's easier to just say "yeah, W put me in pain and though it was wrong, I made a mistake and strayed" than "yeah, my W felt I was crap, fell hopelessly for another guy, and got so horny for him, she could only make love to me thinking of him". I wouldn't have been the first (even on this forum) to have fallen for that situation.

I'm not hung up on being the "good guy", just saying it as I feel it. I've already beaten myself up enough for my failings that led her to stray. As for meeting "OW", what I meant is I can't help but run across her when there's industry functions etc and we're both guests. That's out of my control.

GH: The similarities are scary eh, mate? And yes, I completely misread the "I want to have an affair" thing. I probably looked a fool (again) when I tried to explain why "OW" straying (with another guy) would just be bad for her.

I don't really want to think about the OD being a manipulation. I won't know how to handle it. I don't think I want to go through again sitting in the waiting room for hours panicking, "moderating" the truth that it was an accident she took so many pills, and the trauma after that.

While I feel also that the whole "it's in the past" is bull, she won't move from "I can't bear to watch your pain from what I did. Stop punishing me".

How did the A end? Well, that is the point - another thing that bugs me though I try not to let it do so. She told OM I found out - after I told her not to do so while I work out what I wanted to do (confront him?). He told her to try and handle it and not to worry, he would "make an arrangement" to take care of her if I walked. I was incensed then that they obviously talked about it when I had already told her to just STOP contact with him while I tried to regain my sanity for the next couple of days. She then wrote him an email, yes AN email, copied to me, saying:

1) "They" have decided to give their respective marriages "a go"
2) She loves me and has violated my trust
3) If she continues, she will not have the chance to keep her family together.
4) Not to text or email her any more. (what a joke - apparently it does not apply if it is for "work")

Maybe it's just me, but the email only infuriated me at that time - not quite what I needed. While they have kept in contact, she has declined my request for her to state things much more clearly. Her view is since she only contacts OM professionally, she does not want to mention the A at all, back to the "it's in the past" position.

Anyway, I started this thread because recently I feel a sense of detachment growing, I just feel mixed up and not at peace, at the same time thinking I am guilty of being ungrateful because I have W back ... right? Do I want the marriage, yes, do I love W, yes. But I just feel things slipping away. I don't even have the words for it. I look at W sometimes, even when she is being loving to me ... and I don't have words for exactly what I feel, but a tiny part of me even feels I'm kinda loving the wrong person? Crap, I don't even make sense to myself.

(and to be 100% clear about it, there is nothing remotely resembling a possible third party affecting me, "OW" and I don't even have contact now, and I don't see her as someone I have any romantic interest in even if I'm single now)

Edit: The "what if" part of my posts mainly refers to what if W had not freaked out over my contact with "OW", as platonic as they were.. It certainly shook her and right or wrong, it played some part in getting her really interested in the M again. Then again, so did the fact that friends were sending me contacts of lawyers to talk to.

[sandi2]

Deep, even though I may have reacted strongly to your post.....I can't help but feel sorry for you. I feel that way b/c people have tried to tell you that both you & W are not facing issues and are trying to sweep it under the rug. Just like her OD. You can't even think about it, much less approach her about the "real reasons" for her OD. I think you know in your heart, but it's too much, so you start sweeping.

Another issue you won't face is the OW. Okay, if you insist that "you" had no EA with her.....you "know" by your own admission that she had one with you and wanted to make it a PA. But, once again you start sweeping the dirt under the rug instead of facing the truth. You can't deal with your W's OM. He is a big problem for you. You seem to think your W should be able to "understand" the friendship you had with OW and that it is business related when you happen to run into her......however, you can't see the same picture with your W and OM. THAT'S DIFFERENT! Okay.....if I give you that and say you are right about it, it still leaves you and W in a terrible life of denial. She won't face the truth....won't even discuss it and wants to leave it in the past (same as sweeping under the rug). You can't face her controlling factors over you, so you sweep. You can't turn lose of focus on OM and still want to confront him.....on & on.

I think living a LIE has killed something inside of you. I don't know if it is your true emotions of love or the stress of living like this every single day. That is why you feel so confused. How on earth could you feel "free" in this type of relationship? You are not free of anything, are you? You are a prisoner. That is why you think about "leaving" the M so much. Your soul is dying like this. You are silently screaming to be free. It is very sad.

I hope you can find peace, Deep. It will not be through living a lie. Neither you or your W will have peace this route.

Take care,
Sandi

[GH31]

Completely agree with Sandi, Deep.

You will never ever ever find peace in denial, take it from a man who knows.

I did not face my own demons until I came home one day to find my wife and all of her things gone. We were living overseas far from family and friends and I was totally alone.

It was grizzly having to face demons that had tormented me since childhood but the reason I did it was because I was 31 at the time and wanted to do everything to prevent this from ever happening again, not just to me but to those closest to me. I never wanted to experience this ordeal ever again in this lifetime, and I decided that noone whom I loved would experience profound pain and unhappiness as a result of my behaviour.

I simply had to do it, do you know what I mean? "Too hard" just wouldn't cut it.

I also resolved to live an honest and virtuous life even though I'm not religious.

Believe me the issues that you're trying so hard to avoid will find their way back to you.

Remember saying how you try to stifle that little voice that whispers to you "get a paternity test done"? If you ignore it long enough it will be shouting at you and life will punish you mercilessly until you rip the issues up by their roots and throw them on the fire.

Please tackle them head on. We are here to lend you help and support.

[Deep]

Thanks once again for the replies.

Sandi, while I might not agree with all you say, I do appreciate your candor and words of comfort, and I do agree with some blunt things you have said even if I don't like facing up to it. W has to stop running away from problems, but it's not something I feel I can talk to her calmly about for now.

As for "OW", yes, she probably felt close to an EA towards our closest period (and she had kicked her H out by then) - I never saw it as anything other a potential bad decision and a path to a huge mess. Which was why I kept it on an even keel. W was at fault but I knew OM manipulated her in her weakness too, and I did not want to be anything like him. Thus, I guess as far as the EA went, I just felt you couldn't have an A with just one willing party right.

As for being fair over "meeting" over business, I have no big issues if W were to run into OM at times. The world is only so big. "OW" and I may be in the same industry, but our companies have no biz relationship, we don't have to (and don't) talk for work, and it's only at industry association pow wows that we may meet as part of a group. W on the other hand is officially the Relationship Manager for OM (what an ironic title eh). She has to work with the companies he owns on a daily basis, help plan their financial cashflow, lobby and arrange for trade financing. Her efficiency is measured partly by how successful she helps make his companies. I think she's serviced him enough. THAT'S the difference.

But you're right. I do feel I've lived with a lot pent up (if not outright lies as you put it).

GH: Thanks for the kind support mate. I just had a long talk with one of our CORE group members. He also told me it's about time I talk to W as he saw my issues potentially exploding in not too distant a future. He gave me some suggestions and told me to pick my timing and words carefully.

I know only too well what you mean by "having to do it". I think I've kept it under wraps for long enough. I know I have to do something.

Can't help taking a deep breath as I type this though ... I just hope I'm not flipping the switch to another torrid, semmingly endless rollercoaster.

Thanks again.