WAW and 4 kids

[tryingtilDorR]

One more thing - obviously I know engaging in the long R discussion is not the right thing to do, but just as she is addicted to the EA I think I am addicted to these interactions with her. I was thinking the whole time it was going on that I shouldn't be doing it, but I couldn't stop! These happen about once a month it seems. Need to do better.

[sandi2]

I would suggest that you make no contacts to anybody through your email account that she has access to. They do nothing but entrap people! Stay as far away from her as you can and do not contact her what-so-ever!

I would suggest you get a lawyer to see what your rights are and if she's blowing empty threats trying to scare you.

Your R talks are not addictive! Don't use that as an excuse. They are an emotional trap, and all LBS fall into them b/c they are not detached. When you finally drop that rope, then you won't CARE what she does and you won't discuss anthing with her b/c you DON'T CARE! Only you can reach that point in your attitude. Nobody can do it but you and once you're there.....you will feel it in your spirit b/c you will have a sense of peace and you'll stop thinking, worrying, and fretting over anything in this stitch. You will move forward with your own life. Isn't that worth achieving? That is the only thing that stands a chance in h3ll of your W ever stopping to consider that she might just be wrong in what she's doing. However, it will not work.....it simply CANNOT work as a ploy to get her to wake up and go back to you. You see, the WAW knows when you have truly dropped the rope. THEY KNOW! They can see it in your eyes and hear it in your voice. The see it in your attitude. THEY KNOW. You cannot fake it, you have to "arrive" at dropping the rope.

Talk to you later.

Sandi

[tryingtilDorR]

I agree that I need to be careful now. It is funny because I had been very careful, but never thought she would aggressively start trying to dig up stuff. She also found an email from 2 mnths ago that I sent BIL/MIL/SIL about women in an MLC where I outlined her traits/behavior that fit the profile - this got her the most steamed of all. That is the day she started sleeping in the other room again (Friday). I had mentioned last week that she had come back to our bed for a couple nights for some reason. It is a shame because this was really the only email interaction I had on this subject with the ILs and she found it. When I sent it I thought I was probably doing the wrong thing and it has definitely backfired (but ILs agreed that she fit the profile).

Dropping the rope - I know this is key. I also just picked up a book called Love Must Be Tough which basically advises the same thing, and the book even uses scripture to justify the action. I was beginning to not care about OM/EA over the past couple of weeks and I need to get back on that track. She isn't someone that I enjoy being around and I am much less stressed when she isn't around. Previously, I would be thinking about her and wondering what she was doing when I wasn't with her, but I do that less and less now as time goes by.

I had a good IC session this morning, but my IC says she sees value in these heated/emotional talks, which is counter to what I read everywhere else. My W says that these arguments/discussions are going to make her leave sooner, but my IC says it isn't true. She has worked with both of us and says that this is the way she and I have been interacting for years (contentiously) and that these discussions are the way we emotionally connect. She even encouraged me to have these interactions (but not neccessarily about the R - just to have the interactions even if they aren't pleasant). I thought this was real interesting - she said that 'good' comes out of these discussions because it is the only time we interact on an emotional level !?!?!?!? I can see her point to some extent but also see the potential to do harm by getting engaged in these. IS the 'good' that comes out of this worth the collateral damage? She says that when W stops caring and won't engage is when there is a big problem, but the fact taht she engages means that there is something there. I figured DBers would have an interesting reaction to all this. I use my IC as another source of input but not as the last word, and generally her advice is consistent with DB techniques I am finding and she is very familiar with Michelle's material (until this).

Moving forward with my own life is worth acheiving, Sandi. I am trying to do that. Not engaging in meaningful discussions with her outside of our children is part of that. Many people are encouraging me to step up and be president of a local youth sports organization I have been on the board of for many years (serves 900 kids), and I am considering doing it after being on the fence for several years. The time commitment is significant but there is a good board of directors there to help and I enojoy working with the people. However, this may be another good thing for me to do since I am feeling more generous with my time and want to contribute more to others as well as my kids. I worry about time it might take away from my own kids, but it also sounds like a good way to GAL, amongst the other things I am doing. I am going to figure it out in the next 2 weeks, but they are begging me to step up and do this.

Next weekend D15, W, and I are supposed to travel to Florida for D15's tournament. W is saying she is not sure she should go now. We bought the plane tickets last year. I told her it is up to her, but if she went we would not fight or discuss issues, just have fun, so that we would make it a nice trip for D15. I am not sure what to expect from this trip, but it will take discipline to DB while spending so much focused time with W. We will be spending time with a group of people which sould take the pressure off. Maybe getting away from home will be a good thing - just not sure how it will go if W decides to go.

[tryingtilDorR]

Apparently S17 told W sarcastically today "maybe you should introduce me to your boyfriend". W sent me a txt msg about it and isn't pleased obviously. S17 and D15 knew several months back that W had a 'friend' that she was too close with and it made Dad really mad, which explained some of the arguing they were hearing. S17 must have overheard the recent argument/discussion from the past week. It was a discussion in private, but W yells and it becomes public quickly I guess but we didn't think anyone was around. I need to talk to him about it.

Other than that, I am finding more and more that I really don't care about OM more and more as time moves on. She is going to do what she is going to do and I have no control. Talking about OM just raises his importance above any level that it should be. The real issue was that she didn't want the M and now this is just 'in the way' of making progress really. She maintains that it is a 'friend' only but I know better (and so does she). I truly believe that as long as there is ANY unneccessary contact with OM the M is doomed (may have been anyway but I think not if both decide they want to work on it).

When you finally drop that rope, then you won't CARE what she does and you won't discuss anthing with her b/c you DON'T CARE! Only you can reach that point in your attitude. Nobody can do it but you and once you're there.....you will feel it in your spirit b/c you will have a sense of peace and you'll stop thinking, worrying, and fretting over anything in this stitch. You will move forward with your own life. Isn't that worth achieving?

I do care about her, but I am finding that I feel less 'needy' and 'dependent' when it comes to her. I stopped groveling and pleading with her months ago, and only now make some pointed statements about her 'choice' to not work on her marriage, etc etc which she argues isn't a choice and that it just IS. But I am feeling less compelled to even do that anymore after the events of the past week. I noticed that I am sleeping better the past 2 nights as well and I am not wondering what she is doing constantly and not feeling the urge to talk to her. I notice how less stressful it is when she isn't around and how it is a good thing.

the WAW knows when you have truly dropped the rope. THEY KNOW! They can see it in your eyes and hear it in your voice. The see it in your attitude. THEY KNOW. You cannot fake it, you have to "arrive" at dropping the rope.

These words have stuck in my mind - I realize how right you are Sandi and I never had considered what effectively detatching and dropping the rope meant when viewed from WAW's perspective. A definite change in the weather occurs. It isn't just stopping the R talks and the above-normal kindness/affection towards the W, it is an 'aura' or 'attitude' but not impolite/being a jerk/etc.

BTW - to anyone reading who is in the same sitch I recommend reading Love Must Be Tough by Dobson. It definitely reinforces many of the things discussed here.

[sandi2]

Love Must Be Tough is an excellent book!

Well, that old saying that "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is very true. In a weird way, she feels that she is the one that was done wrong by "your" actions.

I felt that when you said the two of you were simi-separated, that you were trying to have it "both ways" by describing your R and co-parenting. As with most men & women, your viewpoints about sex are very different from each other. As a woman, and especially a WAW.....I could see it from your W's POV. But, I decided not to get into all of that b/c I doubted I could help you to understand. Men just think about things differently when it comes to sex. Anyway........

When she discovered you were checking into the OM's criminal backgroud.....that was the final straw. I won't say that the R is beyond repair, but I think a lot of serious damage has been done now. Especially since the kids know what is going on and she knows their attitude toward her. She feels like a total failure as a mother. She may even decide there is no hope where they are concerned and that they would never be able to forgive her. It may be what will cause her to decide to move on with OM. A lot of things "depend" on their R, plus what has already happened with the family unit.

Everything I have said to you, I still stand by. I would still advise you to cut all ties and whatever you do....stop with your investigation of OM and the snooping of what they are doing together. If it becomes "necessary" for all of that....then your lawyer can do it. I would make sure that any emails, etc. that you've had was erased from the computer but to save her emails to a CD for evidence, if needed. Did you check with a lawyer to see where you stood legally against all this stuff she was threatening?

As far as that counselor is concerned.........STOP GOING!! You are receiving very bad advice. That counselor isn't worth a pinch of salt and is doing much more damage than good.

I have to go but will check back to see how things are going.

Take care,
Sandi

[tryingtilDorR]

I felt that when you said the two of you were simi-separated, that you were trying to have it "both ways" by describing your R and co-parenting.

After I had written that I realized it sounded kind of limbo-ish. I guess we are separated. If you think about our sexual relationship (none) and the fact that there is no other emotional intimacy/connection between us and we are no more than roommates except when we get into intense R discussions, then obviously we aren't "together" . She even avoids talking to me and communicates through the kids (Call dad and ask him if he fed the dogs, etc etc). I guess my old definition of 'separated' was not living together, but we are as close as you can get to that and still under the same roof? Except, however, those curious times last week when she cam back into our bed. Not sure what that was about. It happeend AFTER she knew about my OM criminal record investigations.

As a woman, and especially a WAW.....I could see it from your W's POV. But, I decided not to get into all of that b/c I doubted I could help you to understand. Men just think about things differently when it comes to sex.

If you ever have the time and energy to try to convey these points I am all ears. I'd love to hear your perspective. It has been 8 months since we have had sex. One thing I have stopped doing is asking for it. I figured that is the first thing I needed to do if I ever expected to get it again

When she discovered you were checking into the OM's criminal backgroud.....that was the final straw. I won't say that the R is beyond repair, but I think a lot of serious damage has been done now. Especially since the kids know what is going on and she knows their attitude toward her. She feels like a total failure as a mother. She may even decide there is no hope where they are concerned and that they would never be able to forgive her. It may be what will cause her to decide to move on with OM. A lot of things "depend" on their R, plus what has already happened with the family unit.

I agree that we have entered a critical phase and the coming weeks/months will be telling. I am not sure it is as dire as you see it Sandi, but at the same time I don't want to be overly-optimistic about where things stand. We have had other serious times in the past 8 months similar to this. There were times when I lost my temper and the kids were exposed to this originally back in April actually. Obviously it would have been better if all of these things didn't transpire.

I think if she sticks it out for a couple more months then there is reason to be optimistic. I just wish I could get her to re-engage in working on the R if she decides to stick around. Staying in limbo is really hard, but I see many on this forum who have done it a long time so I need to keep pushing forward.

I would still advise you to cut all ties and whatever you do....stop with your investigation of OM and the snooping of what they are doing together.

Yes I have lost a lot of interest in sorting out what is going on with the OM. I told her this.

Did you check with a lawyer to see where you stood legally against all this stuff she was threatening?

Yes I did and I don't have anything to worry about I don't think.

Each day that goes by where we don't have any negative interaction is a victory, and at the same time I am not trying to engage her in conversation unneccessarily. I thought about what you said about how a W can sense that you have dropped the rope, and I realize I hadn't really gotten there so I am trying to accept that she may be done and be as OK with it as I can be. She may actually stick around for a while if I can settle into this state and only then would we ever have a chance to R. It takes time and dumping OM which I have no control over, but I can create the time with the right attitude I think.

As far as the IC goes I agree with you. I have been tailing off my visits to once every 2 or 3 weeks. She has helped me in some ways since our sessions usually focus on my own growth and development.

[Deep]

Hi Trying, I skimmed through your thread and intended to post something here (and just saw your post in the R program thread).

So much of your sitch sounds so many familiar bells in my memory! The gradual (and to the W when she plunges into her new state) and longstanding disintegration of the M, how you never listened to her, how things got to the point of no return. The slow but sure signs of the OM. The suspicions. The distance, the focus on the kids, the way you have started your own action plan. Wow.

Just to crossover to questions you posted on the other thread, I found out about OM about 4 months before R program. W was scared and shocked, primarily for 3 reasons 1) She was extremely protective of OM and his family (he's married with 3 kids, wife was being tested for possible cancer) and did not want to wreck their family, 2) Our kids, she loves them deeply 3) She feared the humiliation of the A being known to her family, friends, and company (there are some unique aspects to these I might write on later, and OM is a very important client to her company). Thus she agreed to end the "official" A, but to keep OM as a "very good friend". This situation persisted through to the R program.

I'm gonna focus on just a partial view of my sitch here and please bear in mind I knew no DB/DR resource back then, but I must say the DB elements I accidentally used worked well. The begging, whining, pleading, threatening etc didn't work too well. It was only when I detached myself that the space it gave her made a difference. I was well into taking care of myself when W seemed to realise I wasn't that bad afterall, and even chose to freak out over a close woman friend I had (details in my thread, and Sandi has her own views but that's another story). I can remember clearly the night I told her "I'm going to stop talking to you about what I need, and what you should do. I just realised I don't like the person I've become because of what happened. It's pathetic, and I'm not going to be like this any more". Of course, I backslid (alot at times, but it was a decision point and I made progress).

I went through the same things as you did. W telling me how awkward and corny the little signs of affection I gave her (I did mean them and felt hurt), how tense and unnatural our every interaction was -"can you stop trying so hard", "can you stop being so nice?" 2 common examples. And prior to and after discovery, how much effort she had put into the M, how I failed to listen, and how all my efforts (even before discovery) were too little too late.

A little off-course, but I would like to address some of what Sandi said. Sandi, I respect you and appreciate your experience, help and sheer honesty. I agree with much you say but would disagree with some as well.

With all due respect (and I know I'm new here), sometimes you seem too defensive of the WAW. A common view, and one I think you share, is that while the WAW makes the choice to have an A (where there is an A), the LBH shares the burden for what went wrong in the M to start with. I agree with that. You seem to think that LBHs stereotype WAWs and maybe they do but I find you stereotype LBHs and situations too.

Put it this way, the breakdown in communication that leads to what a WAW feels as distance or disintegration in the M is at least partly her fault too. So logically, she is compounding something for which she is partly responsible for as a base for an even greater potential mistake / disinteration / damage to the M. I understand and agree with what you wrote about the WAW's state of mind, and yes I do agree you cannot have 2 parties both unyielding. Life's never fair, and 1 party might have to do more work at a given point in time. That's why many LBHs make allowances for this.

But you can have too much, even of a good thing. And human nature is such that sometimes, you just have to be a little more drastic and firm just so you don't get trampled. As you put it, dealbreakers and lines can be changed, one may have thought an A is a dealbreaker initially, but actually being in a M with an A might change that. Ok. But a line HAS to be drawn somewhere.

It's just like with this whole detachment thing, which I'm starting to see as one of the root causes of my current issues, it has its pros and cons. It's great and absolutely necessary as a precursor to a LBS finding backbone, self-esteem, identity, and to GAL. Coming out of it, with the assumption that the WAS reconciles, does not stop the process. Without even factoring in the baggage (since we're all human) that comes with recovery, this detachment can change the M forever, and not always in the positive way people might assume. And IMHO, detachment itself has contradictory elements with the support for the WAW you seem to be suggesting.

I'm not saying I have the answers or come across rude btw, heck I'm in need of answers and support myself. Just my couple of pennies worth of random thoughts.

[sandi2]

In your posts, I see where you have been confused about being S and living under the same roof. To be honest, I did not have any idea how many couples did that until I came to this board. I thought if a couple considered themselves "separated" they lived in different houses! There are so many folks who simply cannot afford to pay for two individual places. That was the very reason I did not move away from my H, was b/c I could not support myself and I knew he would not enable me living out of our home. I have even read where couples consider themselves S and sleeping in the same bed! No wonder the LBS is confused!!

I thought your W said that the two of you would be considered S as a H & W, b/c she was staying for the sake of the kids. In her mind, she wanted to have a civilized friendship b/c of the kids. Living under the same roof while S is very, very difficult. Why wouldn't it be?

You, on the other hand, seem to forget that she considered it a S. You would not get the idea of having sex out of your mind. Now, I could really get up on my high horse about this subject, but I doubt it would do any good. There are "some" women out there whose sex hormones seem to be on the same cycle as a man's and they need that sexual "release" and will have the sex act simple b/c of that reason......and no love or emotions along those lines seem to be included. I would think "that" would cause massive confusion!

I doubt your W want any sexual contact with you. "Most" women's sexual desire is intertwined with her emotions and if the emotional R with her H is not good.....then that will effect her sexuaL desire for him.

Most females learn early in their M how fragile their H's egos are.....especially about sex. Therefore, she gives all these stupid excuses for not having physical affection......or sex. Physical affection for a man will lead to desire for sex. She knows that. Thus, the silly excuses like Deep's W gave him. The fact was that Deep's W did not want him touching her. But, she knew if she said, "I don't want you touching me b/c I am not at that place yet".......he would be very offended. (And all the men shouted "amen".) In a man's opinion, he has every right to be offended if his W tells him something that 'brutal'. Women learn this the hard way, so they start making up silly excuses for not wanting him to touch her. Fact is.....men don't want to hear the brutal truth b/c they react to it by becoming what I refer to as "sexually sulled". I hate it and every W out there knows exactly what I am talking about. His ego cannot deal with the fact his W does not want him to touch her. So, he sulls up. With most W's, it isn't so much a little affection as she knows he will want more, so she discourages it from the onset.

"Most" women do not require the sexual release that men do. I keep saying "most" b/c there are many who do. I think it depends on the sex drive of the individual, and maybe it is my old fashion teachings, but what you see in the movies about women jumping on men......well, that is not the way they are in MR in the real world......IMHO. If it were, we would not see so many D out there.

Women's POV on sex and men's POV on sex has always and will always be different. Their needs are different, their thought process is different. The male and female are different and in more ways than just their sex homormones!

See, it just amazed me that you still looked for your W (who told you that she was S from you) to show up at the bedroom door wanting sex. Then when having company and she did stay in the bed with you.......and continued to stay.....that really blew your mind. You thought it HAD TO BE FOR SEXUAL REASONS! No, that is how "men" think. I can't read her mind, and for all I know.....maybe it was......but I kind of doubt it. You see, men can't seem to think without the "other end" interferring with their thought process. So, yeah, it causes them a lot of confusion.

I know from experience how the lack of the right hormones affect a woman. It is horrible. I don't have time to go into all of that now. I also know how a female's thought process can change her mood and her body's response. Too much for this post today!

Anyway, maybe some other time I can talk more about that.

Later,
Sandi

[tryingtilDorR]

Deep - did the affair ever get disclosed to others? IT sounds like exposure was a big fear that might have helped her get the desire to end it? Your story gives me much hope, but my W has not gotten to the same place as yours but I hope she can at some point. I am going to read your thread to learn more.

One thing Sandi helped me do is get some balance in my attitude. I got so angry over OM and felt sorry for myself to the point where I was kind of acting a little like a bull in a china shop when it comes to dealing with W in the aftermath, but it sounds like you made mistakes as well. I now have pulled back after looking at some of the things I have done to hurt her after I discovered the EA (which it sounds like you didn't do - expose her EA too broadly before she had a chance to react?). I think the other factor I am dealing with that you didn't is that my W's OM isn't married and is otherwise always available. Even when she has tried to end it he keeps texting her. However, you have the issue of the OM being at her job which could be just as damaging but at least he is married. The impact on my W's OM's family isn't a factor like it was in your sitch.

still looked for your W (who told you that she was S from you) to show up at the bedroom door wanting sex. Then when having company and she did stay in the bed with you.......and continued to stay.....that really blew your mind. You thought it HAD TO BE FOR SEXUAL REASONS!

Sandi - actually, when she showed up in our room I wasn't expecting sex. As I said it has been 8 months and I have only recently (last 2 weeks) given up on getting any in the near future whether or not she is in the bedroom. However, having her away creates a strange 'distance' even though she is in the house. I guess that is the point from her view, so I am just trying to roll with it. I used to make comments about her being in another room but I don't mention it at all anymore.

She tells me that 'women don't need sex like men' when I have accused her in the past several months of having it with someone else (since she wasn't doing it at home). She maintains her relationship with OM is not a PA, but I can't help but be suspicious. I am really letting go of all this however - I can't change what I have no control over!.

I know that both you and W are right about the differences between men and women and it has been something I came to accept over the years as my sex drive was always much stronger than hers. She made a statement in a recent discussion: "I used to do it as a duty of being married, but I don't consider myself married anymore so I stopped doing it". This kind of blew me away - sex stopped when she started the EA, so I came back a couple of days later and said by that logic, when the EA started you then decided you weren't married anymore? She totally denied ever saying any of this at that point - she does this sometimes - says something very striking and then either completely forgets or decides that she shouldn't have said it and denies (she really seems convinced that she never said it however!).

Today's dilemma - there is a party that our whole family is invited to but it is a group of people that my wife has been training with over the years. Her training, and the control of her trainer over her, had been a big source of conflict between us for a few years before things got bad last Fall. She got to the point where she was exercising 4-5 hours on some days, and jumping at every word her trainer uttered. My son was also involved and it was causing a lot of family arguments/conflicts. It all kind of blew up in the fall when she had a falling out with her trainer (blamed me for it) which is also when she got into the EA.

Some of the self-improvements I have made is to come to terms with all this and I have told her this and demonstrated my new attitude about it for many montsh. She is resentful of all of it, however, since it was a source of anger and now I did this 180. Her anger/resentment is all in the script I realize.
I digress...

Anyway, this party is with this whole group of people that she trains with (still but to a much lesser extent since Fall when EA began and our problems intensified) and had developed a separate social life with outside of our marriage over the past several years.

I knew that she would prefer that I didn't go most likely or at best be indifferent, so I asked her "What's going on with this party today - are you just taking the 2 older kids (often happens) and I am staying home with the younger ones, or are we all going?"

Her response was "I am taking ALL the kids" (emphasis was on "I"). I then asked "you don't want me to go ?" and she said "you do what you want". Obviously she doesn't want me there, but I think I am going to go with my family anyway. I know many of the people as well and the party will probably be fun. I worry that I am not detatching enough when I do this, but after all it was an invitation for our whole family so I should just go I figure and have a good time with her good friends. She will probably ignore me or pretend I am not there but I don't care.

[sandi2]

She tells me that 'women don't need sex like men' when I have accused her in the past several months of having it with someone else (since she wasn't doing it at home). She maintains her relationship with OM is not a PA, but I can't help but be suspicious. I am really letting go of all this however - I can't change what I have no control over!.

I think it is probably very difficult for a man to believe anyone could have an A without it being a PA b/c of his own sexual drives. However, since I was in your W's shoes, I can tell you that "no" she does not necessarily feel the need for sex......EVER....just b/c "you" have a need. Her need is not physical sex, it is an emotional need she has empty and looking for some man to fill that emptiness and make her feel good. I was in that place & I know. It is something that is hard for men to understand b/c their bodies are design differently and they just can't get the fact women don't feel the same thing. That is another difference in the sexes. Men still have a desire for sex even when he and the W are not getting along well. Women do not desire sex when the R is in turmoil b/c their emotions are too interwined in the sexual desire and that messes them up. (I expect some woman to come here any minute to argue the fact that she is just like a man who craves sex all the time!) In most every R, one of the persons is going to have a higher sex drive than the other one. It doesn't mean that the LD person doesn't have a "healty" sex drive, it just means the other person's is higher....that's all. I mean, how many have you ever heard that had the exact level? They would either be in the bed all the time, or NEVER have sex! (lol)

Anyway, I think I'm getting off the subject at hand, here. But, you need to realize that she "can" have an EA and it doesn't mean it is a physcial need she has. In fact, I put off my OM from meeting in person to have a PA. It wasn't the physical part I needed. It did work on my sex drive, but it was all part of the fantasy thing.

Some of the self-improvements I have made is to come to terms with all this and I have told her this and demonstrated my new attitude about it for many montsh. She is resentful of all of it, however, since it was a source of anger and now I did this 180. Her anger/resentment is all in the script I realize.

I'm not sure if you mean that you have expressed your changed attitude/improvements or not. Anyway, don't discuss this anymore, if you did. She just needs to see it for herself and you not talk about it. A lot of W's resent the H's changes when it is done after she feels "done" with the M b/c she was wanting him to do that "before" she got fed up....and now she feels it's too late. But...don't stop b/c those feelings can be turned around, in time.

*****************************

How did you know the party was for the entire family? Was that when you were asking her about it that you found out? Anyway, here is something I want to show you:

What's going on with this party today - are you just taking the 2 older kids (often happens) and I am staying home with the younger ones, or are we all going?"

I don't want you to waiver on every word you start to say, but I just want to gently point out how you kind of gave her the "power" in this conversation when you asked her that last part. See what I mean? Try to think another way you could have found out the information without it giving her the power over you in this situation. Even if you said, "What are your plans?" That would not have made you sound as if you were at her dispensure to use as a babysitter or kick around. In fact, it would not have given her a clue as to what "you" were planning to do. You may have "other" plans, right?

Now this next part puts you in a "needy/clingy" look:

then asked "you don't want me to go

I'll grant you that every time you ask her a question stated that way, this is how she'll answer:

"you do what you want"

.....OR, she'll say, "Do you want to go?" Either way, it does not make you look very strong and independent of her.

It would have made you look much more attractive to say something along the lines of, "So, do you have plans about the party?" And when she said she was taking all the kids, then you could have said, "Okay, great b/c I actually had made plans for tonight and that will free me up."

Always, always, have "something" as a back-up plan to do on a moments notice, so when she asks what your plans "are".....you'll have an answer. Make sure it would merit skipping out on a family invitation to a party.

Later,
Sandi