Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[sandi2]

Hey Friend,

Okay, guess we better have one of our talks, yes? (Oh my, I didn't mean to sound so arrogant!) I do see you as a friend and I do want to help you b/c I know you are in terrible pain and need encouragement. That is what you want more than me telling you all that you did wrong. I can tell you this.....I came so close to leaving my M of 40+ years that I practically had my hand on the doorknob......but I didn't leave, Big John. I didn't leave! Sweetie, it takes so much time for this stinking mess to heal up and get back to what is almost normal again. Just pray to God that she "heals" and doesn't D you. Okay, so let me back up to some things you have posted....

With my W demonstrating how weak she is towards the OM, I'm starting to feel like I may be giving up ground to the OM with my W by detaching (and thereby demonstrating no resistance). I'm concerned that in her current condition, my W may interpret my detaching as me giving up on her or not caring about her (like she think OM does).

So, you already had this "mind-thought" before you had your major backslide with your W in your office. Know what this is? It is "fear" and "impatient". I figure you have your nickname of "Big" John for a reason. Maybe John is nowhere close to your real name, but I have a feeling that the "Big" may refer to your built......maybe.....but I personally think of "Big" John as being a STRONG man. Some silly young females may think that physical strength is attractive in men, but as we women get some maturity under our belts, we discover that those muscles don't mean much if they don't have what they need on the "inside". It is who the man is in his spirit that makes the real difference. I believe you are a big man in your spirit, John. Yes, you are feeling weak and out of control at this point in time, but that does not mean you are losing ground or that you are a failure, and it sure doesn't mean that "you" are weak in any sense of speaking. I bet you are like so many others who are a "fixer" and it is killing your soul b/c you cannot "fix" this stitch! I understand, b/c I am a natural born fixer myself. I had to learn the hard way in several other situations, that I could not fix a lot of things....and especially, "people". Oh, it is soooo hard! But you know what? Learn...I did. The School of Hard Knocks is a bad place to graduate from! (Notice I ended my sentence with a preposition? It's b/c the School of Hard Knocks isn't about grammer! ;))

Now let's look at that last part of your quote. You are concerned that your W will think you don't care about her like the OM does. But didn't you try that in the very beginning??? Didn't you discover that pursuing doesn't work? Every LBH automatically starts to pursue b/c that is the nature God gave him and he is doing what comes naturally. But the nature God gave man was to be used in a "positive" arrangement when the male is seducing the female in hopes of M. I personally think it is natural for a female to be the "responder" but I know a lot of women pursue, so I won't argue the point right now. My "point" is that your stitch is out of whack from what is suppose to be normal, so you can't do what "feels" normal.....which is to pursue her.

I realize that 2 1/2 weeks of detaching (or almost detaching)is not enough time to see if it is working or not in my sitch. I have to tell you though, I'm feeling really skeptical right now that it will prove effective with my W as she is 110% committed to this EA with the OM.

2 1/2 weeks is nothing when one looks at the entire scope of things. But it is h3ll for the LBH and he feels like it has been an eternity!

You are allowing the "fear" to consume you when you see her step pick up and know it is b/c she had her drug fix from OM. You are right when you say she's down when she's not been around him or they may have had a spat, then she's "up" when she's had her ego food from OM. I've been there. That is why the break-up in the A is so bad b/c of the period of time that the W has to go through that are like--"withdrawals" from her OM (just like withdrawals from a drug).

This conversation with your friend fed your fear:

It bothered me that EVEN AFTER A YEAR, my friend knew with every fiber of his being that what he was feeling for the OW was wrong but that he was struggling with his feelings nonetheless. It made me think about my W and the problems she is already experiencing with not being able to stop communicating with OM and how much harder it may get for her as time goes on.

After that, your natural instincts kicked, again, in to "fix" your W. Doesn't work. Look, BJ, I am just like you about that kind of thing. I KNOW how much you think if you could only point this out to her and get her to "see" the outcome that she would think logically and come to her senses! She won't think logically. I don't believe she CAN think logically in this crises she's in. You fell back into seeing her as the woman she used to be. Remember, she's not that girl now. You panicked after talking to your friend, and I can certainly understand why. It is statements like his that started putting the brakes on for "me" when I heard stuff like that. However, I was already seeking some help at the time I discovered those statements......you have to bear that in mind. Plus, I was a lot older than your W and I think my stitch was a bit out of the norm compared to the usual age range for most WAW's.......not that a woman couldn't leave her M at "any" age, but you know what I mean.

but I couldn't help it.

Sorry, sweetie, but I disagree. You CAN help it and you BETTER begin "helping it" by stopping this sort of confrontations with your W. Don't use that excuse that "you can help it" b/c you are a man who can make choices for himself. Right? (I knew it was a form of speaking, but I wanted to point that out, anyway.)

What you told your W was very touching. But, my H told me the same thing. He told me how "precious" I was. I'll never forget it. I felt like slime. I was so ashamed. But, it did not make me stop my sexual EA on line with OM. Can you believe that? See the power that it has over a person? But, like you....I had free will and I could make my own decisions....nobody forced me to continue my EA....I "wanted" to continue it, even after my H poured his heart out to me. So will your W.

Then we get into how she sees her EA with OM (i.e. "wonderful"/"special")so differently than everybody else

Hummmm, yep, just like when she was in high school.

that's when I tell her how her EA really is- sleazy, unethical, etc.

She can't think logically. No use in trying to point it out.

See what I mean:

She responds to this by stating "That sounds really supportive."

Now really, she is looking for her H of 20 years to support her feelings over another man?? That proves what I'm saying.

detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well.

NO, NO, NO! Listen, you aren't thinking rationally here. Let me back up and say that you aren't thinking like a DBer. You are so stressed that your mind is almost in the condition hers is in. You think that if you leave her alone and give her space that she will be freed up to indulge more in her A. Am I understanding you right? First of all, you are not holding her back from indulging in "anything". Secondly, she wants your "blessings" on her A, which is stupid and shows how messed up she is. Thirdly, you said no resistance = no guilt, etc. I don't personally see where your W feels guilty at all. The woman is openly talking to her HUSBAND about her A, for gosh sakes. Where do you get thinking your pursuing would be any resistance? It sure as heck isn't going to make you "attractive" to her! The only "resistance" will be what holds her back mentally & emotionally.....and that my dear friend will be the ATTRACTION/RESPECT that she feels toward you!! (Oh...I'm typing so hard my fingers hurt... )

I'm not really mad....just put that little face up there to make a point. I do wish I could reach through this computer and shake you! Do you think that would help snap you out of it and wake you up to your senses anymore than you are hoping your WAW will snap out of her fog and wake up to her senses?

Okay, this part: "I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well". Maybe I am to blame for you thinking you should be "sympathetic", I hope not. I meant for you to "understand" what she is experiencing.....not that you should should just lay down and accept whatever she dished out to you and "take a bunch of crap from her". That is not it at all--and I sure hope I did not give you that wrong idea in my posts.... As a WAW, I mearly want to help LBH's get a better idea of what works and what doesn't work with the W. I can tell you that my H pursued big time. He suddenly started showing me attention (to the point of smothering me) for the first time in YEARS......and I couldn't handle it. Which I had previously "wanted" that attention, but he wouldn't give it to me.) It made me want to throw-up. Graphic, I know, but that is the effects it had on my emotions. So, will you believe me when I tell you that detaching is the ONLY way that works with a WAW?

She (the therapist) suggested that detaching may not be the best approach right now and that perhaps I shouldn't hold back my feelings to my W- it's OK to let my W know that I'm pissed off about the sitch and I don't have to hide it.

Well, your therapist is wrong! Yeah, she may have some initials behind her name but it doesn't make her wise. First, let me point out that you are not exactly suppose to "hold back" feelings......I think you have this all screwed up. DB teaches us not to "show" a negative attitude and to keep a PMA around the WAS as much as possible b/c that is what works. It does not mean that you are go give any indication that you are happy about her EA. It does not mean that you are suppose to show her support in her wrong-doing. It is teaching you how to be a better person, and one that people in general like to be around. Do you want to be around a person who is exploding their anger on you all the time, telling you what you do wrong and how upset they are by your actions? Do you want to be around a person who is crabby and negative? I don't think so. You've explain....how many times....to her how you feel about the stitch. Do you think it didn't take and you have to go over & over your feelings about it untill it does "take"? That is not the "tool" one uses in these types of situations. It is the wrong tool and the job won't get done using the wrong tool trying to fix what's broken.

Likewise, if I want to tell my W she is beautiful and/or I love her then I should, the hell with whether it makes my W uncomfortable or not.

NO, BIG JOHN.....NO! NO! NO! This is not the right track. It is NOT about making her comfortable or not, okay? Forget what she told you about her being uncomfortable......FORGET IT!! I'm telling you what works in DB. You are scared out of your mind. Get a grip and settle down and listen to me....please. You want to tell her that she's beautiful and you love her, etc., b/c you are living in a...."panic palace"...and you need to move out of that place and find a "peaceful riverside"! You cannot think properly when living in panic palace and you act out of emotions. You must act out of "knowledge" and that's what we are trying to give you here on the board. If you express these feelings for her, it will have the same affect on her as it did when my H told his feelings for me. Is that what you want? You don't care about how uncomfortable she may feel? Well, do you care that telling her you love her will make her want to vomit? Would that make you feel better? B/c I don't think this is about what makes her feel comfortable or uncomfortable......I THINK IT IS ABOUT YOUR COMFORT! WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER! Now, I know I feel better after yelling that at you. I hope you "get it", Big John, I truly hope you get it.

Please listen to the people who have actually experienced first hand the whole thing. You may have tried to detach in 2 1/2 weeks....but you really didn't. You may have pulled back some, but you never "detached". As long as she has you hooked this badly...emotionally......then you are tied to that rope! All I can do is keep telling you that if you'll break free of that hold and drop the rope......you will be at peace, respect yourself, become attractive, and you'll be able to move forward (with or without her).

You have two choices. Becoming the man I just described.....or being like a whimp who follows his W around telling her how much he loves her & how beautiful she is, while he watches to see if she throws out a crumb his way. Of course, she won't! Then he'll get all angry and "express" his outlook about her A, but she doesn't stop b/c she doesn't respect what he has become.

So, the choice is yours, Big John. It always was. You can believe that so-called expert...therapist, or you can believe Michele W. Davis, (a real expert), who has had a life-time study of these cases and written books and been on shows, etc. You can accept the word of us who have, and "are" living through what we have tried to describe to you. It's all about choices and freedom.

I pray you will do what you need to do.

Take care,
Sandi