WAW and 4 kids

[sandi2]

Okay....here we go. (The other post was "short" compared to this one, so beware.)

Her complains about the M had intensified over the past few years and I didn’t do much to address it (neither did she actually).

You probably realize now that this was the "true" beginning of the downfall of your R. If you read Michelle's WAW symptoms, you'll see where the W complains about being unhappy but the H doesn't "listen" or he doesn't do anything about it. One H said that he didn't realize his W was "that" unhappy! That just burnt my toast! I wanted to scream at him.

Jun 08 – 4-6 MC sessions no progress – W seemed disinterested and talked about separating

Unfortunately, by the time the couple gets to MC, the W has, usually, emotionally divorced her H and she feels it is too late. That is the same reason that Retrouvaille did not work for her.

Mar 09 – I ‘prove’ EA after several months of W denials, W ‘ends’ EA but stays ‘just for kids’

Does this mean that you had been after her to confess her involvement with somebody else? You used the word in a plural sense, so I take it you asked several times about another man. Do you remember what it was that made you suspicious? Guess it doesn't matter. I just wondered what finally got your attention.

Jun 09 – I catch her and prove EA is on again to a lesser extent,

Were you "trying" to catch her or was it an accident?

Before I go any farther, let me say that none of the "trouble" is about OM. I know "you" think it is, but the trouble was there before OM came on the scene. He is the result of the trouble. You are making him an "issue" and he will become a larger issue if you do not apply the DB principles correctly in appropriate time. That is what I hope we can help you with here on the board.

All along she has stated that she is going to stay in the marriage/home 'for the kids'. She treats me like an acquaintance for the most part, not even a friend and has sine the EA started last November. I did confirm that the EA had at least paused to some extent in March/April when I gave her the first ultimatum, but quickly realized that the OM (he is single) was still texting her, etc. I then told him to stop and he went and complained to W, which I think brought them into heavier contact again.

I could talk for days on just this one paragraph, but maybe it would be better if you asked any questions about her reactions. Everything she has done is very, very typical! Perhaps you have been given enough information that it isn't necessary for me to say anything more about it. But, I will add this, in case......never contact the OM. It will make things much worse. He is not your friend and he will not do anything to "help" the situation. As you saw, he will report to her whatever is said or done and it adds fuel to the fire.

It is great that you have been working on self-improvements. However, don't expect her to be impressed. You probably wanted her to notice your changes, but if she has.....at this time in the stitch, she thinks it will not last.....so she's not taking those improvements seriously. She "thinks" it is a ploy to get her back with you and that you will not stick with the changes once she rededicates herself to the M. That is why we say that it must be for the LBH and not to "get the WAW back".

Given the way she is acting I realize that no self-respecting individual would put up with it for long

Depending on how you were raised and the influence you had in what the "deal breakers" were in the M. I grew up thinking that an A was the deal breaker of all time! However, it does not have to be the deal breaker, and you can maintain your self-respect if you decide you want to be this new, strong man (not that you weren't) and don't allow the stitch to take it away.

While we are still under the same roof I figure there is always some hope, but deciding how to act and what to do/not to do on a day-to-day basis is so exhausting!

I know it is, and that is why you need to know what to do every day and why you need to come here each time you have a chance. This will be your support group. Don't discuss this EA with other friends or family members b/c they will take "sides" and it causes more stress and complications. You are doing the right thing in reaching out to people here.

she almost seemed angry about my change in attitude and behavior.

She is angry! B/c you waited until she was emotionally "done" before you decided to get off your butt and do something. (Remember, I'm thinking like she's thinking.)

Her feelings and "your" emotions is in high gear. You were scared the first time you found out about the EA. The second time, your ego took a beating. So, it's the emotions that will have to be watched closely or it will tear you apart.

I am wondering if I miscalculated here with the latest ultimatum, where I told her she really needed to leave if she wouldn't cut off ALL contact with OM? I am realizing that my ultimatum isn't controlling her behavior, it is just giving her the excuse she needs to do what she has been struggling to do, which is leave. She tells me 'you told me to leave'. I correct her and say I told her to quit talking to OM, but that if she couldn't she needed to leave, but she always leaves out that detail!

You probably know by now never to give her an ultimatum! Unless you are prepared to back up what you tell her......don't go there. You will either resort to doing something you never intended and thought this would be a technique that would pressure her into doing what "you" wanted her to do..........or you will have to go back on what you said in the ultimatum, which will hurt your respect.

It HAS taught me that I can't control her behavior really, so it is another reason to detatch. Why agonize and negotiate something you have no control over?

Now you are beginning to see. No, you cannot control her and that is very tough for a lot of H's to accept. I don't mean that in a sarcastic way....b/c I was taught in very old fashion, traditional ways of the roles each partner has. So, I think I understand how that is frustrating for a H.

Now I am faced with the situation of being separated in my own house. I am leaving her alone for the most part and just watching what happens now.

But being in the same house is the greatest opportunity for reconciliation. If I had ever left my home/husband.......I don't think I would have returned. Pride has a lot to do with people's decisions and I know that I have too much.....and I wouldn't be surprised if you did too. Therefore, be careful what you say & do. You are doing the right thing by backing up and giving her space and time. Leave her alone, but don't totally ignore her by being "cold" toward her in actions or attitude. Married people "know" each other's attitude better than anyone in the world. We can't fool our S too much. I truly believe u]attitude[/u] is the key to making this work.

I think the key variable, however, is whether or not they are involved in OP

Do you still believe that now?

I am so glad that you gave up the snooping and trying to "police" her b/c it won't stop her from contacting OM. I know that it only caused me to become more sneaky and take more risks at my job, etc. Just don't allow her to contact him in your presence b/c that is showing huge disrespect and you "can" control that. That is where you need to draw a boundary and tell her that you do not know how long you can stay in the same house with anyone who would show that kind of disrespect. (Wording is everything!....Don't tell her she "can't" do something b/c she'll show you that she can.)

She has said that she wants to go back to how it was 'before' where we were ships passing in the night and otherwise acted like roomates to some extent. I told her that is not the type of relationship I want anymore and have made all of these changes to remedy that, but she just isn't interested (due in large part to OM I believe).

Do not show her any physical affection....period!! If she makes the first move to show you affection, then you can very carefully respond (a tiny bit), but don't over-do b/c she would not be ready! I can promise you that any physical affection is about the last thing she could handle at this moment. The pressure for her is too unbearable. I know this is hard to hear and I know you are under terrible pressure also. But hers is a different type and as I said, I am telling you how "she" is feeling as a WAW. I know this is not the type of R you want and you are ready for a "new" R and you are ready to get working! But, she isn't! It is the last thing she wants right now. She's ready for a D! That is what you must remind yourself of....everytime you want to hug her. She wants a D, not a hug.

You are blaming the OM for her being cold and not wanting affection. That is true to a great degree, but it is not the entire reason. Remember, the "trouble" was there before OM arrived. However, her fantasy is going to be a big issue now. She will have a fantasy about the OM that he or no other man could possibly live up to. It will be the fantasy that has her swept off her feet. But she can't see it. She thinks it is the OM. That is what she will have to work through. It takes a long time, usually. If she is valuable enough to you.....then you will stick it out and be the man you need to be and will either become so attractive to her that you will outshine the OM and reconcile......or you will be able to move on without her (if she makes those decisions).

she knows her relationship with OM is wrong, even if it is EA only

Don't reduce the size of the problem by saying EA "only" b/c EA's are very serious. They are serious due to her fantasy. This may sound silly to you, I don't know.....but I can assure you that a fantasy to a woman is not just a "dream".

although she will try to protest this during arguments (saying that EA does not equal 'affair' or being unfaithful) but deep down she knows

Yes, she knows. She is playing on words here. She will admit it later. But please don't argue with her b/c it makes you the enemy in her eyes.

her family is very unhappy with her and have been very supportive of me/kids in this whole situation - MIL has said she will 'disown' her if she leaves her family

I understand that "you" think this will matter to her b/c of who and what she used to be......but trust me, she is NOT that woman any longer and she WILL chose OM over family--and they can disown her all day long and it won't stop her. They are tying to "control" her also, and it will not work! Oh, and the fact that they are supportive of you?......only makes her more angry. It would be to your best interest if they did not say anything to her about "you" b/c it will make her worse. I know you don't understand it. It is all part of her WAW rebellion. It is part of her symptoms.

The friends that do not support her?......She will finally drop them and find somebody new who does support her. Dropping old friends and finding new ones is part of the scene of a WAW.

Her feelings for the kids are "real" and she is tormented over it. However, it may not be what will keep her from doing something stupid. Let's pray she will not go there. A mother's love for her children is very powerful, but this "crises" she has is beyond anything she knows how to handle--and she can't see the truth as it is. (You can see the truth, but she can't.) She will be in a "fog" and will try to justify her feelings and her actions and will finally believe that the children will be better off with whatever decision she makes. I pray it won't go that far.

I love your "marching orders".... They are great! There is only one I want to say anything about.

g) remember the vows I made about my marriage before God and the commitment to my children - to remind myself of this I have started wearing my original wedding ring again. After many years of not wearing a ring at all (W used to complain) I had switched to another one several years back because original didn't fit, but now it does again so I am wearing it as a reminder of what I am fighting for.

Okay.....it is fine for "you" to remember your vows and all that stuff about the rings, etc. But, don't expect her to. Don't say a word about vows, rings, wedding pictures, nothing like that....or you will make matters much, much worse. It has the "opposite" effect that you hope--when making any statements regarding this subject. Don't bring up any memories about the wedding or honeymoon. Don't even say anything about the "kid's sake". This sounds terrible, but I can tell you that she will resent you like you couldn't believe! It truly makes the WAW much worse in all of her symptoms.

All I can do every day is think about these points and see where things go.

It is great if that is what motivates "you", but it won't do it for her. Just bear that in mind.

Even though my W shows no affection towards me, I would welcome ANY physical intimacy even if she wasn't emotionally committed.

This is where a lot of men really get hung up. This one issue is their downfall. Yes, you want that physical affection worse now than ever before....partly b/c of the situation you are in and knowing her heart doesn't belong to you right now. It makes you feel desparate. The point is not to show her you are feeling that way......and if you don't get a grip, you will show it. She'll see you in a "deparate" light--and it is NOT attractive. So....remember, she wants a divorce....not affection.

I don't get it, why LBH's get this idea that their WAW should suddenly start showing them affection--and they talk and talk about it (not that you have, but just saying that some others do) and it makes no sense that she would be affectionate if she wants a divorce.

It would obviously be easier to live with this if there was no prospect of an OM, since I feel like in that case we would have a chance to work on M/R at some point.

But you see, she looks at it like.....you had a chance but you didn't get off your butt and do anything about it until the OM showed up. Do you see that? Be honest. Did you do "ANYTHING" until you found out about him? According to your own posts, you didn't. That is what she's angry about. You waited until she was through, empty, dried up, emotionally dead on the inside and then---she found somebody who would pay attention to her. THEN you woke up and decided that you better put forth a little effort into this MR. Again...I'm saying what she is thinking. Don't want it to sound like I am being mean to you, but trying to get you to see from her POV as best I can.

I better shut this post down and then I'll start another one. Hope you don't mind me doing this. I don't pretend to know about all this stuff, but I have been mentally where your W is at right now and I hope I can help you see it.


Sandi