What's it really all about?

[healthydad]

Hi Alex,

You're so very fortunate to be getting Greek's perspective - as I think her words offer a fine reminder that, as much as we might think we understand our WAS's words, there can often be much more going on...

Your W did share a lot of honesty in her note - and a lot of confusion - and I think it is enough for you to read the note and then let it go...not to belabor the water vehicle metaphor - but sometimes these notes - these brief glimpses that people offer us into themselves are merely like the canoes used to cross a river - once crossed, leave the canoe there - and don't try to portage that boat over a mountain like Herzog's Aguirre. That's the latent Buddhist in me talking...

But there's also the practical truth to the limits of words - in that we can use them best to convey simple things - like past the salt - but they fail to capture the complexity of all that we try to squeeze into them. Even the best of novels can only tell part of their story - and so the most honest of notes, or the most emotional of attempts at honesty, will only and always be limited just by virtue of having been written...

In other words...the notes are useful to an extent...but they don't offer enough to make sense of the writers (or the readers) nearly as much as their actions do. Not to say that words don't have their value - I would be broke...well...more broke...if that were true...but they seem to have the most value when dealing with logistics, with stuff that's not governed by our hearts...since our hearts and our emotions just seem to be at constant war with reason...

At least that's where my thoughts are taking me right now...thinking about your W's pain - her own confusion - my main impulse it so feel sadness for her - sadness that she could feel so incomplete in herself that she could not even feel worthy of a love that sounds so important to her...But, and this comes to mind just as quickly, perhaps that is how she must feel in order for her to travel the journey she must travel...for her to navigate that river...

I am also the child of divorce - and have already been divorced once before...my parent's divorce was hell on my brother and my sister (both older) - but that's not just because of the divorce - I would say that it had much more to do with my parents - and how they were after the divorce - with the degree to which they both took out the frustrations of their guilt (my father) and their unfulfilled lives (my mother) on us...punishing us with their misdirected anger - and, in the case of my father, finding too much refuge in an addiction to work...and a specious requiem in Chivas.

My son is now 12 - his mother and I divorced shortly after he was born...and most people who meet him think he is the most stable, self-confident child they've ever met...the difference, I think, is that his mother and I both did our best for him - and did not take our issues, our shortcomings, etc, out on him...From my experience - and (albeit limited) empirical observations, the troubled children of divorce tend to have troubled parents...so...we can achieve a great deal in terms of protecting our children from the hell of divorce by modeling a strong, healthy, honorable way of living – become a person that sees even this pain, this mortifying experience, as an opportunity for growth...

Whoa...I went on a bit longer than I meant to...hope you don't mind...next time I'll cut and paste to my own thread so as not to hijack...

-Carlos.

[aliveandkicking]

Unfortunately, we can only control our parts...but point taken (and a reassuring one at that).

[AlexEN]

Greek,

I like the way you make me think...

We must be sisters. I come from the same stock. Emotions = scary! I'd rather have physical pain than emotional pain anyday of the week. Have you always known this about her?

You know, I "kinda" always knew this. I used to tease her about how her family get togethers were such serious events and would asked if they ever had laughs around the dinner table because everyone just looked so dour. I looked at it as my "job" to bring some levity to the table; she was always bemused as to how dinner at my family's home could include designing interesting "art" out of the food on our plates, playing with my mom's wind-up toys on the table, and then having some really lively discussions and banter about topical events and how it contrasted to the all work no play atmosphere in her childhood home. But, it's only been during the past year or so that I thought about all of that again in the context of just watching how busy she has made herself in, I think, a subconscious effort to avoid her "feelings" or any discussion that might evoke them, good or bad. I distinctly remember some R conversations where she would start to tear up and I could see her getting visibly uncomfortable. She would excuse herself saying she'd be right back, but never come back, having realized that she had to fold laundry or get dinner going.

All those tears. All those shared feelings. You know, if I'm gone and eternally p!ssed, I'm not crying about anything you write, say, do. I'm gone. And I'm not going to give you a glimpse at my softened side. I wonder why she did that?

I do, too; unless she wants to show me that she does have a softened side, because she so rarely shows emotions. I don't take much from this one way or the other.

They are your little kayaks, so what I think doesn't matter. I just know that when we told our kids about me moving out, Coach made sure I did all the talking. He just didn't contribute at all while I told them. All he said to the kids when I finished was "Do you have any questions for me?" Our daughter did and he answered them matter of factly (logistical questions mostly). Other than that, he put the miserable chore in my lap altogether ~~~ right where it belonged. Grrrrrrrrrrr >-{ but that guy was dead on right to do it! It was part of the lesson he gave me in Reality 101. But you know your children best and what you say GOES in my book. Just some food for thought.

As I said, I don't think they "hear" anything after divorce. I cringe at some of what she wants to say, but I will not "censor" her. I will take to heart your point and cut what I have to say to the quick; but, because I am so concerned that they might otherwise fight their emotions, too (to the extent that trait was handed down from mother to daughter to our children) that I can encourage them not to just forge on if their feelings are telling them something different. Don't know if you know this, but my oldest is bi-polar (and youngest starting to show some of the same behavioral patterns) so to the degree she tries to suppress their feelings or actively discourage them to not blame themselves, as I understand children often do, I feel I do have to give them that message even though this day is of her making...

I don't want to rescue her from the consequences, but I will keep my comments brief. Does that make sense?

Yikes, less than 72 hours away...

[AlexEN]

Carlos,

Thanks...

You're so very fortunate to be getting Greek's perspective - as I think her words offer a fine reminder that, as much as we might think we understand our WAS's words, there can often be much more going on...

Absolutely; it's a guessing game. And the words in and of themselves as you also wrote can convey only so much of the "real meaning" and even then only imperfectly...

Your W did share a lot of honesty in her note - and a lot of confusion - and I think it is enough for you to read the note and then let it go...not to belabor the water vehicle metaphor - but sometimes these notes - these brief glimpses that people offer us into themselves are merely like the canoes used to cross a river - once crossed, leave the canoe there - and don't try to portage that boat over a mountain like Herzog's Aguirre. That's the latent Buddhist in me talking...

Zen, you make a good point...

In other words...the notes are useful to an extent...but they don't offer enough to make sense of the writers (or the readers) nearly as much as their actions do.

Smiley would say that the real "tell" is Deeds, provided they are not false...

My main impulse it so feel sadness for her - sadness that she could feel so incomplete in herself that she could not even feel worthy of a love that sounds so important to her...But, and this comes to mind just as quickly, perhaps that is how she must feel in order for her to travel the journey she must travel...for her to navigate that river...

I think the latter is true; she feels she MUST travel the journey outside the context of our M. Of course, I do not agree, but I must accept...

My son is now 12 - his mother and I divorced shortly after he was born...and most people who meet him think he is the most stable, self-confident child they've ever met...the difference, I think, is that his mother and I both did our best for him - and did not take our issues, our shortcomings, etc, out on him...From my experience - and (albeit limited) empirical observations, the troubled children of divorce tend to have troubled parents...so...we can achieve a great deal in terms of protecting our children from the hell of divorce by modeling a strong, healthy, honorable way of living – become a person that sees even this pain, this mortifying experience, as an opportunity for growth...

So true, but I can only do my best as 50% of that parenting. I can become who I need to be, but it it's true that her self-interest will often trump the best interests of her children (not my words, but our MC's), we can't get all the way to 100%. That is part of what frightens me; I'm going to continue to work on me, but I can't "make" her work on her. I know that, too, is the reality, but I'm disappointed in it nonetheless.

Whoa...I went on a bit longer than I meant to...hope you don't mind...next time I'll cut and paste to my own thread so as not to hijack...

Carlos, you can hijack here any time...

Thanks,

AlexEN

[givingitmyall]

Quote:

They are your little kayaks, so what I think doesn't matter. I just know that when we told our kids about me moving out, Coach made sure I did all the talking. He just didn't contribute at all while I told them. All he said to the kids when I finished was "Do you have any questions for me?" Our daughter did and he answered them matter of factly (logistical questions mostly). Other than that, he put the miserable chore in my lap altogether ~~~ right where it belonged. Grrrrrrrrrrr >-{ but that guy was dead on right to do it! It was part of the lesson he gave me in Reality 101. But you know your children best and what you say GOES in my book. Just some food for thought.

Greek, I have been wondering how I would handle this talk if I were forced to give it. I do not want the kids getting the impression that the D is something I want or even agreed to. I think the way Coach handled it is perfect. Thanks.

[AlexEN]

GIMA,

I agree; that's part of why expressly saying that is part of my script...

She is doing everything she can to "deflect" blame; this, she has to "own".

I told her she needs to say "I" not "we" have decided to divorce.

After that, I don't think any of the words will be heard...


-AlexEN

[aliveandkicking]

W: I have something difficult to tell you. After many months of thinking about it and a long process, I told Daddy that we should get a divorce.

A: I don’t agree with Mommy, and this is not what I want. I still love her, but we’re going to have to live with her decision.

W: I love Daddy, too, as your father, but I no longer have the feelings I had when we got married that I think I need.

A: We aren’t divorcing you; we will each be there for you, but separately. I think this is terribly sad. It breaks my heart that you will have to go through this.

W: What you need to know is that you are the best parts of our lives. We love each of you more than anything, and that will NEVER change.

A: Whatever you are feeling, you have a right to feel (and to express), because NONE of this is your fault and no one deserves to experience divorce. I am so sorry.

IMO- some of this is too much info. That it breaks your heart that they have to go through this is a bit scary and foreboding, just think about it.

I think you are a man of many eloquent words. The bottom line is to get the facts out and let them know you are there for any questions or feelings that come up. I think you as a parent need to watch their responses and handle it accordingly rather than saying so much.

I hope I am making sense. My H and I did go see a child behaviorist (regarding telling the kids he would not be sleeping here anymore)...it was brutal and they cried. They knew by my silence that this was H's deal.

The feelings and processing have taken time and we have to know that it can be years and some kids just don't talk about it which IMO needs to be ok too.

[Greek]

it was brutal and they cried. They knew by my silence that this was H's deal.

Same in our case. Our children knew by Coach's silence that I was the mastermind of the deal. I had to eat the whole thing, and rightly so. My point is, they knew/know by how he conducted himself.

[AlexEN]

@A&K and @Greek,

Thanks... It felt too long to me, too.

I can't change what she says, but I can cut what I have to say way back...

Does this say more by saying less?

W: I have something difficult to tell you. After many months of thinking about it and a long process, I told Daddy that we should get a divorce.

A: I still love Mommy, but I don’t agree with her. This is not what I want.

W: I love Daddy, too, as your father, but I no longer have the feelings I had when we got married that I think I need.

A: NONE of this is your fault. It breaks my heart that you have to go through this.

W: What you need to know is that you are the best parts of our lives. We love each of you more than anything, and that will NEVER change.

A: Do you have any questions of me?

And it still makes me sick to re-read that...

[givingitmyall]

I told her she needs to say "I" not "we" have decided to divorce.

Well put.