Hello, no i am not new around here unfortunately but i haven't posted since 2001!
DB community, I need your help and your shoulders again. You can see my original classic near WAW story if you go back to February 2001. Yes, this forum has been around for along time it seems.
8 years since the bomb. I got DB, read the forums, did the right things so i thought, and my marriage improved a bit and avoided the WAW situation. I had truly thought things had improved. Its been off and on since and i admit she has not had overt affection for me at all and has not said i love you to me in a meaningful way, or hardly at all actually, in some time. As a family unit we are now in a comfortable situation financially and are starting to really enjoy life. I sacrifice for my family and go above and beyond to make my wifes life easy. She has freedom to do what she wants. Life has been on cruise control.
Now to the present. I've noticed my wife withdrawing and becoming depressed alot in last several months. She's gone through these episodes over the years but swings back and forth sometimes over weeks or months. I've always chalked it up to some sort of ongoing depression thing although no doctor has been able to define this clinically. I really don't know what to think.
My W called me upstairs late last week for the talk. It was a good talk and we laid it all on the table. She says she has no feelings for me, hasn't had any for years (cop out?), and really has had no feelings about anything for many months. She is depressed but can't pin point anything. We talked about working it out and not hurting the kids. She said she needed space. I said i was giving her space and she was free to do what she needed. She said there was no one else in the picture and i believe her. I said the years have been frustrating for me as well. We talked about alot of things that we never talk about and it helped. She is not a talker and doesn't share her emotions usually.
So, to be honest, if it weren't for the kids i would have ended this loveless marriage long ago. I have not strayed. Would she stray? I would not tolerate it. I am confident (or detached) that losing my wife as a companion is not the end of the world for me. I do however see how this would affect the kids and i want to avoid that. I am frustrated and in pain over what i see is the inevitable. Some days i welcome it. Its been 8 long years. I am 40, she is almost there, but we have much years ahead and i want to enjoy something.
What do i do? Do i press again to 'improve myself' and spark a tidbit of interest in her again to hang on some more? I am tired but i'm afraid for the kids (now 12 and 14). I'm not sure what she wants. I don't care anymore. I get angry thinking about it. I don't deserve this. At what point do you throw in the towel?
Your M doesn't need to be loveless. It is too catch-all to say you don't care. It is a bomb to you. I understand.
Please read and then listen to the audio version of marriage fitness. I know you are tired. I know you feel like giving up. So does your W.
It is not the inevitable unless you choose it.
Me 45, H 46, S 23, M 26, Together 30, Bomb 6-2-08, S 6-19-08; H left 12-29-08. H home 12-09, Still MLC in 2012! Me- I have my big girl panties on. Bring it.
Successful people don't work harder. They work smarter.
What works? What doesn't?
At what point do you throw in the towel?
A better question.. if getting beaten up in a boxing ring isn't working.. why not change the venue?
Being together for the kids is the glue that binds while you and your wife rebuild the foundation. The love of your children works for both of you. Being a martyr or lacking responsibilities in a marriage doesn't. Define your priorities, goals.. get help... learn to accomplish them in a healthy way.
Time to start reading... "How to Make Your Marriage Work without Talking", "CoDependent No More", "His Needs, Her Needs", "The Four Agreements", "Hold On To Your N.U.T.S".
Google Retrouvaille and read up on that. It is highly recommended and might be worth considering.
No one deserves to be in an unloving relationship, living a life of anger, withdrawal and bitterness. And this goes TWO ways.
It's alright to feel icky. The good news is that you can work smarter... get healthy in mind body and spirit. The rest will follow.
She said there was no one else in the picture and i believe her.
Based on what? I read your past sitch, and there's been OM before, and she's certainly acting like there is again (re-writing marital history, no affection, no feelings for you, "needs space" (ugh), etc.
I ask because not only are the signs there and she's done it before, but because you said it was a dealbreaker for you.
I am 40, she is almost there, but we have much years ahead and i want to enjoy something.
What do i do? Do i press again to 'improve myself' and spark a tidbit of interest in her again to hang on some more? I am tired but i'm afraid for the kids (now 12 and 14). I'm not sure what she wants. I don't care anymore. I get angry thinking about it. I don't deserve this. At what point do you throw in the towel?
All very good questions in the gauzy time between night and day, and none for which I, most of all I, have any good answers. But my job -- by which I mean my actual job -- is about questions. I have the same questions as you. Here are some I've asked myself, with tentative answers.
*What does it mean to "start again" at 45? Apparently not much. They seem to be, if not beating down the door, politely throwing pebbles at my window. I have confidence that there will be Someone Else for me.
*Do I want S.E.? I don't know the answer to this question, honestly. But it's oddly comforting to know that this is a question that can be answered.
*What do I do now? Sometimes I feel like a lab mouse, pressing the lever to get a yummy tasty pellet of affection from WAW. "Lookit, hun, lookit what I did!" *Bing!* Tasty pellet. And then darkness, as the experimenter turns out the lights in the lab. So do I wait some more, 'till the lights come back on? Again, I don't know the answer. So I've started asking myself this:
*What do I want to do now? Lately, since I experienced last week what I call on my sitch departing WAW's "Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon," what I want to do is be angry. Something I haven't really allowed myself to do, what with all my "hearing" and "validating" and "lovingly detaching." Right now I don't want to feel loving. So I'm not. And though I know it's not healthy in the long run, for right now it...Just. Feels. Right.
What I like about "What do I want to do now?" is that it shifts the power back to me. It gives me control over my own destiny. And it's dangerous. It compels me to think -- openly, honestly, without reservation, without rationalization, without hesitation -- about WAW, about our M, about our lives together. It makes me ask this question:
*Is this really a person I want "back"? Not the Idealized Herself. Not the Herself I married, lo these 18+ years ago. Not the Herself I remember. Not the Herself I want her to be. The Herself she is -- not who she is in this messed-up state we're all in in the midst of the maDness, but who she was a week before, a month before, the night before The Bomb. If I met her today, for the first time, if I'd been set up on a date with her by friends, what would I think to myself on the way home after saying, "Goodnight," at her door?
As the day of her departure approached, in the midst of a long telconvo during which she apologized for what turned out later to have been merely the Junior Varsity version of her Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon, WAW asked, "What can I do? Should I stay? Do you want me to stay?"
And I was tempted to issue forth with the Hurrahs and the Hallelujahs and the Hosannas and the Hip-Hip-Hoorays! But I caught myself, in the nick o' time, because I knew she wouldn't be staying for her or for They Who Must Be Nurtured or even for me, but for Guilt's Sake. And I asked myself:
*Is this what I really want, even in terms of my DB'ing? Just to hang on some more? Don't I want progress, some progress, any progress? And that was an easy one to answer -- hanging-on isn't enough for me. That much I do know. The Status-Quo is no longer tenable. I want more. More importantly, I deserve more. I'm not saying I "deserve" WAW -- don't have that much hubris. But I am saying that "hanging-on" is selling myself short. In a way it's selling her short. It's certainly not respectful of the Good that was in my marriage. Which led me, inevitably, to ask this:
At what point do you throw in the towel? I think on this fairly often. I don't have an answer, though I suspect I know what the answer is, and that I'm just avoiding it. I'm not sure you do throw in the towel. I'm not sure it's that abrupt. I suspect -- and those who have gone full-cycle on this will know far better than I -- that one day you just realize the towel isn't useful anymore. You don't throw it so much as turn away from it. And, hopefully, get a new towel. One of those really thick "bath sheet" kinds that you can just wrap yourself up in. And you dive back in the water, knowing that there's a comfy, cozy towel waiting to wrap you up when you come up for air.
--------- That's been (some of) my thought process, and maybe you'll gain some leverage on your own. There are, to be sure, some unique aspects to your sitch, not the least of which is your W's depression. One can sense that you feel it might be unfair to "judge" the situation while she's depressed -- she is, after all, not in her "right mind," so how fair is it to make decisions based upon that?
It's a good question, and one for which you might seek some professional counseling yourself. Is she willing to go to therapy? Drug treatment? Tried it before? Those are empirical questions that want answering. I'm one of those Silly People -- like all of us here -- who took "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" rather seriously, despite my inherently Heathenic nature.
On the other hand, marriage isn't supposed to be a suicide mission, if you get my meaning. You're no good to her -- you're no good to the children, teens though they are -- if you pump all your Mojo into her, with no return (he said, knowing himself to be guilty of the same).
So perhaps you have two sets of questions to ask. One set about your evaluations of W's depression, how it affects you, how it affects the kids, how likely it is to be resolved, how willing she seems to do The Work necessary to resolve it.
And the second set is your evaluations about your M.
Between you and me and the firewall, I'm not sure which set is harder.
CoNenn's been changed to Xabian just so you're not all confused. Just like it better.
The Wife. Tired? Not so much, maybe resigned and accepting is a better term. My marriage has been totally one way. Everyone knows it, even my wife.
I've been implementing DB for years....for YEARS! and it hasn't changed things. I've never forgotten the lessons. I still have the book. I will read it again and look into those ideas you all have suggested.
Other men possible you say? I know not on a physical level. I can read my wife like a book. She wears guild on her sleeve when she hides something. I'm sure on that. However, there are a few men she works with (at her work) she thinks are funny and nice etc, and perhaps she sees alternatives and it brings her to question. I suppose if you were in a state of sadness to begin with it could make your heart and mind wander. Perhaps this is a factor., but it may be a side-effect.
Smileys, very eloquent post, thank you. Your thoughts are mine it seems. At what point do you throw in the towel or get another indeed? Eight years + of lovelessness wears hard on a person. I fight for my kids.
Just wanted to clarify that when my wife said she wanted 'space' last week i interpreted it to be more independence (her lack of was perceived and i told her so) and no physical or emotional transaction. I will comply only because to do is to detach. Its not a difficult thing for me to do as i felt it was being done. It was more for my wifes frame of mind that she know this was our 'deal'. She has been outwardly happier since then go figure and i wonder this time if she is insulating herself for whats to come. I have moved beyond worrying about it and will do things for myself and the kids.
I am sorry to hear about your situation. With her depression is she a rapid cycler or slow? Does it always seem like she is just a step below what a 'normal' person would define as happy when she is not cycling? Has she ever had long periods of time where she described herself as just being content but not completely happy? I am surprised no Dr has diagnosed her with dysthymia. It's a 'mild' depression (compared to bi-polar disorder) that affect mainly women. Though it is kind of mild compared to other disorders it can wreck havoc in a R. I know because I have been with 2 people with the disorder including my current W.
These boards are FILLED with people who "knew" "beyond a doubt" that their spouses just "weren't capable" of having an affair. Just please be careful.
Because in my experience, "I need space" almost ALWAYS means "I need space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." Either she's already in one, or she's planning to be, in my opinion.
dysthymia seems like a possible fit, all her symptoms seem to match. We discussed about her at least trying to talk to the family doctor (she has a temp dr., we lost our old one) and perhaps a specialist. Its not a simple thing around here to do so though.
puppydog, point taken. Alls i can do is do my own thing and hope it doesnt come to that.
Man, there's lots of activity on this forum. This thread was several pages down. Sorry to see that really.
I've given thought to comments and warnings of the OM possibility. My W does alot of facebooking and i know she chats with various ppl including some of her coworkers. Is it possible she has more than a good friend relationship with an OM at work (one in particular i can think of)? Heck, anything is possible but really why would i want to fret and worry about it? Doesn't mean the OM would even reciprocate. It would only drive me mad and not achieve anything. I will not snoop either although i have the capability of doing so if i wanted. I don't want to play mind games over this.
W seems to be much happier. She re-signed at the gym last night and is going to tanning at my encouragement. Anything to help her feel better about herself is a good thing. Now i have to do the same and get out cycling and exercising more. Its a good mental exercise for me as well as physical. I'm trying to keep up a PMA while giving W space - which actually means more physical/emotional distance but more 'friendly' conversation. I have to juggle that part because i just don't want to be resigned to be a friend that can talk to her and i have to show some strength and be attractive as well (not sure if i'm describing that right).
I don't want to make this a daily update since i know others have lots to discuss here. Maybe i'll be back in a few days for some advice. I might actually try to help others here as well if i can. That's what we're all here for right?
