Over the Shock and GALing 6

[Thinker]

What's up with the way threads lock now?

Some seem to be still going strong after 50 pages, and now mine just locked after 21.

So here is my 7th thread.

My previous one is:

Over the Shock and GALing 5

My last post their discussed yesterday's MC session. I'll continue with the next post.

[Thinker]

Awake now in the middle of the night. Awakened by the monster. Awake after a lucid dream in which I was taunted by OM and W.

I really don't think OM is actively in the picture any more, but believe her thoughts are still there and as much as I detach, it still bothers me.

I was lying in bed wrestling with what is becoming the demon lurking in the back of my mind: If I am doing so well (detaching, validating, working on myself, etc.), then why is my R and my M slowly but steadily deteriorating.

Personally, I feel better than I have in a long time. I feel happier, more self confident, stronger. I'm not walking on eggshells. I'm doing things for myself. My R with my kids gets better all the time.

But my R with my W has been in a steady decline. (or does it just appear that way?)

Over the past months as I have felt better and detached more, we have progressed from pecking kisses goodbye or goodnight, to none; from W requesting occasional backrubs or snuggling occasionally, to none; from W initiating ML occasionally, to her shuddering when I come near her; from cuddling in bed together in the mornings, to her now being tense whenever I am in the room.

She acknowledges that things are getting worse in this way.

So I struggle.

Is this downward trend a journey that she has to make and there is nothing I can do about it? Or is it a gradual revealing of the actual depth of her dislike of the R - and the outward positive signs that I saw earlier just her "acting as if" Is the downward trend her attempt to regain control of the power dynamic as I withdraw more and take control over myself?

Or is this trend, are these negative changes, caused by something else. Without question, I am pursuing less than I did 4 months ago. I am also not making the attempts I did then to keep the physical affection alive - not asking for kisses goodnight or hugs as one of us leaves for the day. I am pulled back and letting her take the initiative as far as any physical contact or signs of affection, and she is not making any at all. Is she waiting for me?

I really don't think she is waiting for me. The few times I have tried to initiate some sort of physical contact in the past months have gotten strong negative reactions or worse - complete limp apathy.

-----

On the other hand, she has now agreed to Retrovaille - something she refused point blank and absolutely several months ago.

It appears that she has reached the brink of divorce and is hesitating, scared, pulling back from the edge. I think she sees Retro as "One last thing to try."

-----

So I am not going to change what I am doing right now. I believe it is right - giving her space, working on the partnership (being the best dad, coparent and housemate that I can be) and focusing on myself.

But the continued negative trend certainly pauses me and makes me doubt...

[Thinker]

More thoughts after a bit more sleep...

Maybe the downward slide is just part of the process.

The old R is dead, it has to die the rest of the way, completely.

I didn't like the old R either, but maybe I was the one keeping the old R on life support.

The old R really does seem dead. From her side, there really is nothing between us. I'm doing my best to hold on to nothing.

We are talking. If nothing else we are now talking about how dead the old R is.

No Expectations. No Expectations. No Expectations.

-----

Oh, is starting with this thread and wondering why all these late night thoughts last night - see the MC session description at the end of last nights locked thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1788354#Post1788354

[SmileysPerson]

Peace be upon you, my brother.

What's up with the way threads lock now? Some seem to be still going strong after 50 pages, and now mine just locked after 21.

Es verdad; estoy totalmente sin la comprension.

But enough carping, eh? Let's get to the meat of your post, which is the untimely visit of Senor Monstruo to your chamber of dreams.

I really don't think OM is actively in the picture any more, but believe her thoughts are still there and as much as I detach, it still bothers me.

As well it should. But there's "bothers" and "bothers," isn't there? Lots of things "bother" me about the world, and about my world, but I don't let them "bother" me -- know what I mean? No one needs to tell you that it isn't easy making that jump from bothers to bothers. You're working it. Look it in the eye, acknowledge it, and keep on truckin'.

the demon lurking in the back of my mind: If I am doing so well (detaching, validating, working on myself, etc.), then why is my R and my M slowly but steadily deteriorating.

This is going to be harsh, my man, but it can't be helped. So let me open that beer for you right now (your choice -- I can offer Miller High Life, Pabst Blue Ribbon or, in deference to certain geographic preferences, Topper or Genessee), while you settle yourself down in the Barcalounger that is your Fortress of Manly Assurance (TM).

If you're doing well, why is your R doing poorly? Because the one has nothing to do with the other. You're only 50% of your R, but you're 100% of you. You can't carry her load -- you know that. Until she starts doing better, the R is where it is.

That being said, the possibilities in the R could very likely be stable or even improving -- indeed, given what you write later in the post, I would submit to you that in fact things are not deteriorating. Perhaps one ought not mistake the outward manifestation of "a" relationship (kissy-face, etc.) with the real soul of a relationship, to wit:

Over the past months as I have felt better and detached more, we have progressed from pecking kisses goodbye or goodnight, to none...from W initiating ML occasionally, to her shuddering when I come near her; from cuddling in bed together in the mornings, to her now being tense whenever I am in the room.

Now why would she shudder, why would she be tense? These are physical reactions to an internal stressor. And what could that source of stress be? The fact that you're not doing what you're "supposed" to be doing. That she's losing power which, in WAStuff as you well know, is synonymous with control. That things are not moving ahead according to plan, at least with respect to whatever passes for a "plan" in the Way of the WAS. She's confused. This isn't "working out." (See my sitch for a somewhat high-larious discussion of what constitutes "working out.")

You're being a man -- The Man -- and she wasn't prepared for that. Without putting too fine a point on it, and at the risk of offending some of our fine female colleagues, some women (and I'm not saying Mrs. Thinker is one of them, per se, but I've known a couple FWIW) use the kissy-face thing in much the same way they use the breast with grouchy infants -- let 'em latch-on, and they become oh-so-compliant. Now you're moving forward, trucking, without that crutch. Holy Guadalcanal, Batman -- what now?

Is this downward trend a journey that she has to make and there is nothing I can do about it? Or is it a gradual revealing of the actual depth of her dislike of the R - and the outward positive signs that I saw earlier just her "acting as if." Is the downward trend her attempt to regain control of the power dynamic as I withdraw more and take control over myself?

Yes. No. Maybe. It's all of them. It's none of them. It's irrelevant. Your entire line of analysis is proceeding by assumption, Thinker -- and you're far too smart a man to drive the highway to Conclusions via Assertion, Assumption, and Spitball (stopping to refuel and get a coffee at Guesswork).

Is she waiting for me? I really don't think she is waiting for me.

Extend the VLF, homez. Waiting for what, exactly?

she has now agreed to Retrovaille - something she refused point blank and absolutely several months ago.

It appears that she has reached the brink of divorce and is hesitating, scared, pulling back from the edge. I think she sees Retro as "One last thing to try."

BAM!

This is progress. "One last thing to try." That disrespects it, brother-man. First, you don't know how she sees it. Second, you're framing it in a way that minimizes your own DB achievements thus far. If you're going to project and mind-read, why not I think she sees Retro as "One great thing to try" or "One valuable thing to try" or "One hope thing to try"?

I understand that, given your personality (as you've described it elsewhere), it might be tough to give yourself a Bravo Zulu on this one (head-scratchers click here), but, um, ah, well -- oh, f*ck it! Bravo Zulu dude!

It seems to me, IMHO, from my POV -- and all the other mandatory hedges a'gathering -- you've created something here. You've achieved. You've progressed. You've moved the ball down the field. Sure, the game's not over. A long way to go.

But you've gone from Mrs. Thinker doesn't want to be married to you but'll hang out in the bed-chamber and let you get a l'il taste o' sugar ever-now-'n'-again to Mrs. Thinker has accepted your kind invitation to spend an intensive weekend looking inward, at the R, openly and honestly (one hopes). Which means she's taking a risk. For you. Because of the work you've done.

I'm all for humility (and if you're buying that, let me get you in alt about some faboo real-estate opportunities ), but I'm also all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude -- you've achieved.

That monster? I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the bright light of daytime, it actually looked a lot like...you.

[Thinker]

Thanks SP. I needed that!

[Coach]

Awake now in the middle of the night. Awakened by the monster. Awake after a lucid dream in which I was taunted by OM and W.

I really don't think OM is actively in the picture any more, but believe her thoughts are still there and as much as I detach, it still bothers me.

I was lying in bed wrestling with what is becoming the demon lurking in the back of my mind: If I am doing so well (detaching, validating, working on myself, etc.), then why is my R and my M slowly but steadily deteriorating.

Personally, I feel better than I have in a long time. I feel happier, more self confident, stronger. I'm not walking on eggshells. I'm doing things for myself. My R with my kids gets better all the time.

But my R with my W has been in a steady decline. (or does it just appear that way?)

Over the past months as I have felt better and detached more, we have progressed from pecking kisses goodbye or goodnight, to none; from W requesting occasional backrubs or snuggling occasionally, to none; from W initiating ML occasionally, to her shuddering when I come near her; from cuddling in bed together in the mornings, to her now being tense whenever I am in the room.

She acknowledges that things are getting worse in this way.

So I struggle.

Is this downward trend a journey that she has to make and there is nothing I can do about it? Or is it a gradual revealing of the actual depth of her dislike of the R - and the outward positive signs that I saw earlier just her "acting as if" Is the downward trend her attempt to regain control of the power dynamic as I withdraw more and take control over myself?

Or is this trend, are these negative changes, caused by something else. Without question, I am pursuing less than I did 4 months ago. I am also not making the attempts I did then to keep the physical affection alive - not asking for kisses goodnight or hugs as one of us leaves for the day. I am pulled back and letting her take the initiative as far as any physical contact or signs of affection, and she is not making any at all. Is she waiting for me?

I really don't think she is waiting for me. The few times I have tried to initiate some sort of physical contact in the past months have gotten strong negative reactions or worse - complete limp apathy.

-----

On the other hand, she has now agreed to Retrovaille - something she refused point blank and absolutely several months ago.

It appears that she has reached the brink of divorce and is hesitating, scared, pulling back from the edge. I think she sees Retro as "One last thing to try."

-----

So I am not going to change what I am doing right now. I believe it is right - giving her space, working on the partnership (being the best dad, coparent and housemate that I can be) and focusing on myself.

But the continued negative trend certainly pauses me and makes me doubt...

Peaks and Valleys, Mrs Thinker is on a different line than you. How far down did you have to go to start a turn around for yourself? She's trending down while you are trending up, not what she expected. She is watching you, now you are leading and it is making a huge impact on her. It's all part of the process. Stay patient.
Really look for clues from her now, listen, read her body language, watch her actions. Do not take any bait, be calm, in control and loving.
Cheers

[AlexEN]

Thinker,

Your sleep-deprived night reminded me of a similar night I had had which, in turn, helped me unscramble the discussion @Coach and @Puppy were having over at my place yesterday... Don't know if it applies in your sitch, but do you think you are (or were) ever afraid of loving her for fear of getting hurt yourself? Can you love her without expecting anything in return or is there a quid pro quo (stated or unstated)?

-AlexEN

[Thinker]

AlexEN,

This is the whole discussion about Caretaking (giving what you want to give) and covert Contracts (giving with expectations of getting in return ) (No More Mr. Nice Guy) vs. Caring (Giving what the other person needs) and True Giving (Giving without expectations).

I do believe that (subconsciously) my fear of getting hurt / abandoned lead me to resist really loving and respecting my W as an independent person. After a lot of deep soul-searching, I can even tell you that my feeling superior (and therefore secure) was part of my selection process for a mate way back when. I now see how unhealthy this is/was and my respect for my W has grown immeasurably over the years (she is definitely worthy of it), but it definitely did hurt her and negatively impact our R and our M.

I also realize now that I used covert contracts - I want her to offer to give me a back rub, so I am going to offer one to her (repeatedly), and then get resentful when she does not reciprocate...

These are both thought patters and behaviors that I have fought to eradicate - somewhat successfully. I'm also now a lot better at loving myself rather than hoping to get it reflected from her.

So I am now a lot more able to offer something, to provide Love, without expecting or needing to get it in return. It's a big improvement in me.

But I'm not finished yet. I still find expectations creeping in, and I still get hurt.

- Thinker

[Sara]

Congrats on the Retrouvaille agreement. I am a firm believer that it doesn't matter WHY they go, just that they go. And yes, there are some stone-wallers there, but it sounds like from the C session that she is not a stone-waller. That is, she is open and forth-right, even if you don't like the things she says.

Remember, the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. So she hates you, that's an emotional response. A good thing to have going on.

My advice is that you should not look for any change between now and Retrouvaille. The challenge is to keep things pleasant between you. Treat her AT LEAST AS WELL as you would treat a stranger. That means, say thank you, don't raise your voice, don't curse or call names, and stick to the agreements from MC. You need to just keep the ship from sinking between now and then. You will not fix this yourself. Just don't make it worse.

[AlexEN]

The challenge is to keep things pleasant between you. Treat her AT LEAST AS WELL as you would treat a stranger. That means, say thank you, don't raise your voice, don't curse or call names, and stick to the agreements from MC. You need to just keep the ship from sinking between now and then. You will not fix this yourself. Just don't make it worse.

Sara,

W has, I think, agreed to do New Beginning workshop at end of July, but insists that we tell kids of impending D first (so they don't get the wrong impression, you know)... Hardly qualifies as not making things worse...

-AlexEN