I wanted to come over to your thread to post a response to something you'd written today on Tal's.
You said:
Quote: At first you really don't even want to ask, but by using "I" statements express how you would feel if you did get what you want and drop it. Give him time to work on offering such when he has a chance to. If it becomes his choice to offer what you expressed as liking, you both will get more satisfaction, where in directly asking for it will tend to make him feel more burden to oblige and avoids resentment on your part that your expectations are always being pushed into the closet.
This is where I'M stuck right now. In the past I've tried various ways to 'express myself and my needs" to my H to let him know what I need him to do, in order to help reassure me that he is in this 100% with me this time. I find that he sits and listens, nods his head in affirmation, says, "I'll try" etc etc...and then proceeds like a stubborn or disinterested child to ignore each of my requests.
I am giving up...shriveling up, might be a better word from NOT getting what I need in any measure from him. Oh sure he's into doing those 'acts of service' but THAT is NOT what I've asked for.
I'm trying to be patient, I'm trying to give this new cohabitation time..but I fear that it's all going to be for nothing if he continues to refuse to meet any of my needs my way.
Selfish? I don't think so, I thinks it's mutual consideration.
Hi T2, I was going to respond on your thread, but it appears to be locked up, I'll do it here...
I "feel" your frustration and I can relate to it too. I can count on two fingers how many times I heard CAW initate ILY since last March and when it came to wanting CAW to meet some of my expectations at the beginning of the year, I was at my wit's end.
The way you refer to H moving back in as "new cohabitation time" gives me the impression that you recognize that your "piecing" is not quite at the reconciliation phase yet. Its more like H is sticking his big toe in the pool to tepidly test the waters. If I remember right you mentioned this is your 2nd attempt at moving back in together. Your H must be feeling even more anxious this time around than last time if it will work. He is nowhere ready to commit to doing a cannonball into the pool, in fact, very few do a cannonball, most sloowwlleee creep their way into the water ... first the ankles ... wait a while ... then the knees .... wait a while ... very gently the crotch area ... wait a while ... and then the navel is another tough one to get past too, ... another words it is a long drawn out process before most start putting 100% recommitment into M.
So what you may interpret as lackadaisical responses to what you expressed you are wishing for are actually his reaction to his fear that you are asking for something he doesn't know if he can offer yet. By moving in, your H is doing the a major acting "as-if" he hopes this works. I hope this doesn't discourage you anymore T2, but basically at this time he is "faking" it until he feels it is for real ... and while he's "faking" it it makes him uncomfortable to offer what you are asking for as the "real" thing.
Its gonna take time. I believe CAW is still wavering in this phase now for at least 10 months. At first I didn't recognize it and didn't realize expressing my expections were making her feel obligated to do them despite being uncomfortable complying and she began to preceive them as more of a burden and becoming more weighed down with "working" at it. It eventually started pushing her away again (along with outside influences I won't get into here) .
As time goes on and you start to put more good times together than there were before, H will start to feel more like it is for real and will become more comfortable that it can work out, so it start to feel "right" to offer some gestures in ways we desire. There have been periods in these last ten months where when CAW feels better about us, that she had made such gestures eventho I have long since ceased keeping any "scorecard" mentality.
So in short T2, put yourself in H's shoes (skin) ... and picture him tip-toeing into the water. Its gonna take a lot longer than Oct., 19th before he gets in past his belly button. If you can envision this, hopefully it will help you find the compassion / patience to wait for H to take that dip with you ... and being human its OK if you tend to get a little "pruny" waiting so long ... but you can recover from getting "pruny" in order to do some laps with H.
I've been piecing this post in between trying to get some work done, so I apologize if it comes out a little rough to read ... ... but I hope my "take" helps you out some...
Shiny,
The wisdom comes from Michelle's books and these boards!!!
The insight comes from the school of hard knocks ... most of them from CAW!
Quote: Does CAW have ANY idea how lucky she is??:
Is this a trick question, Shiny? Well, if I use her words from that dreaded journal ... "she been told and her head tells she thinks she should feel lucky, but her heart doesn't. Now that was three months ago now, but from her telltale cyclic moods, I'd say not much has changed since. Some periods she seems to try to act "as-if" ... others days she still is off in the distance ... its swing of a pendulm I've become quite familar with. I get such positives like the letter to my sister last month and such affections like in the early days ... then I discover she is still keeping in contact with OM. I unintentionally found info just today (unbeknownst to her), she used her cell phone to call OM three times since, 09/15, 09/26 & 10/12. The most recent was when she went to D18's candle party she was hosting. The call was made between the time she left there and when she came home. which coincides with the current downturn in her mood around me lately again. Notice I'm on in the evening tonight.
Oooops! Shiny little unbeknownst to you did you expect your question to open such a can of worms!
I guess its just bad timing. I just can't get the last entry she made in her journal back in August out of my head ... "I know one day we will be together." ... Every time she contacts OM, she is keeping that thought alive and lately, I just feel like this is all slipping away again.
How many times can I continue to draw her back? ... this isn't a rollercoaster ride anymore ... its a tug of war ... I feel I no longer have the strength in my grip that I once had...
Quote: this isn't a rollercoaster ride anymore ... its a tug of war ... I feel I no longer have the strength in my grip that I once had...
why do I want to say drop the rope?
she might fall on her a$$, or she might pick up the rope and start pulling you toward her and after all wouldn't that be better for you? wasn't it after you dropped the rope and started just doing things yourself, by yourself or with dd that brought her around? or was it that fancy alarm clock thingy you had for a while (what the heck was that anyway ).
don't know KAW, just know that you're an awesome guy and you deserve the best!
Thanks for dropping by last night. I was needing people last night as you might have guessed.
Although I believe I had an angel on my side last night!
Take care and I wonder if one of JJ's posts to me might apply a bit here? It is pretty similiar to LL's dropping the rope.
It's a lot of "polarization" (in "psycho-therapist" terms), or what Michele calls the "see-saw effect". The more that one person does of something, the less the other has to do.
Whether or not that's really what they want to do. It seems like you both just get into the "habit", and run on "automatic pilot" with it.
The big question is, how do you tip this "see-saw" into the favor of making your relationship work? How do you change things so that you both have an equal share of the ride?
Of course he didn't post the answer along with this little tidbit. LOL
Pam
"We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us"
As soon as you said tug of war, the passage Pam refers to popped into my head. I'm with LL, drop the rope. What will happen? Monitor.
Her head knows what to do, but her heart needs to follow, and that takes time. And the best way to get someone's attention is to stop being there. To make them wonder. I think it is time to shake things up a bit.
KAW.........I don't know what to say...isn't that funny..sometimes I rattle on. I know I asked before but do you think om is just in her head? Do you know who he is..where he is...do you think they meet..so many "do you's" Seems like her just journaling things..calling him..what kind of an "A" is that...I am sure what you read is hard to overcome..so like the others maybe drop the rope for now...step back..it wears on you after awhile on what to do next...that's when you have to refoccus on yourself... what do you feel like you need right now..are you content with the safe stuff...or time to rattle things...r talk...and I know for one that the safe stuff is easier than facing the talks....oh it is so hard.
YOu will do what you feel is right... when the right time comes..
Even though I get the feeling that in your W's mind this "A" is more than it is in reality (I'm not convinced of the veracity of all of her stories, frankly)...I'm just SOOOO disappointed for YOU.
You DO deserve better...heck NO ONE deserves such as this!!
Perhaps the calls were moments of weakness? (That's what I tend to think...a grasping at that fantasy escape hatch)
Perhaps as her work with the C and on herself progresses she will find more productive (I typed "sane" and then erased it) ways of dealing with overwhelming emotions???
Quote: don't know KAW, just know that you're an awesome guy and you deserve the best!
LL thanks for the boost with the kind words and I just don't know either. The fact is in the last year I have rediscovered that I'm happiest when I can give in a loving R ... no holds barred. For a time I had gotten away from being this way and became to self-centered and it coincided when I was most miserable. So I have no desire to become too self-involved again. I do intend to be in a nutured loving R again ... I'm just not sure anymore if that will be with CAW. One thing I do know for sure is that D10 does come first. I will do everthing in my power to make this M survives until she is on her own. I owe her that much. Afterwards ??? Strangely lately and I don't know why, but more than a couple people have come to me and said, "Please watch for yourself, in CAW's state of mind, sooner or later she is probably gonna end up leaving you." I know I'm not suppose to value these opinions much from friends and family, but does plant a seed that can't be eliminated.
From Pam:
Quote: It's a lot of "polarization" (in "psycho-therapist" terms), or what Michele calls the "see-saw effect". The more that one person does of something, the less the other has to do.
Whether or not that's really what they want to do. It seems like you both just get into the "habit", and run on "automatic pilot" with it.
The big question is, how do you tip this "see-saw" into the favor of making your relationship work? How do you change things so that you both have an equal share of the ride? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course he didn't post the answer along with this little tidbit.
Thanks Pam for dropping for the "pick me up" and this tidbit. I have been pondering the answer and for me I think for it to end up really working would mean putting an truly ironic twist in it. Sorry don't mean to be vague with this, but I'm not gonna get into that right now as it would be long and draining to dwelve into ... maybe some day soon, I can put it down here ... but not now.
From Jackie:
Quote: Her head knows what to do, but her heart needs to follow, and that takes time.
Jackie, truth be told, this is the crux of all my hope on whether we are gonna make it or not. I'm still willing to give her some more time and hoping she will figure this out on her own. However, if it does come to having to shake things up, I starting to believe its gonna need to be extreme, but again that's getting into that area I don't want to get into right now and don't think I can go there until D10 moves out on her own.
Sue: Yes, OM is very real. I know his name, I know where he lives, I know his phone number, D18 went to school with his S. However, I have never met him in person. They met when they both worked at the school and an EA developed and was noticed by others, including D18. He lost that job in Feb., '02 and that seperation of daily contact between them is what triggered it developing into a PA. In May, she was to move into a rental OM owned next to where he lives which is less than a mile away from where we live. So its quite easy to arrange a meet between them. It all went sour between them in at the end of May. While CAW wouldn't talk about the particulars from what I was able to piece together is he told her to back off for a while as his W was back in town (they're seperate many years but not D) That spurred her to reconsider our M. From her comments over the next nine months, she has tried to bury her feelings for him, but she believes she has those "in love" feelings for him. The only reason she didn't leave is because he never encourage a long term R. He has a rep of being a womanizer, and despite that, she journaled that she believes she can get him to feel the same way for her as she feels for him ... OK, I haven't gone into this much detail about A in a long time and its bringing too much back ... I gotta stop here ...
Sorry all, I gotta regroup.
Just want to say ... Shiny, don't feel bad about asking that question ... I guess I just couldn't hold it in any longer ...
... another words it is a long drawn out process before most start putting 100% recommitment into M.
... but I hope my "take" helps you out some...
Well, if I use her words from that dreaded journal ... "she been told and her head tells she thinks she should feel lucky, but her heart doesn't. 
Now that was three months ago now, but from her telltale cyclic moods, I'd say not much has changed since. Some periods she seems to try to act "as-if" ... others days she still is off in the distance ... its swing of a pendulm I've become quite familar with. I get such positives like the letter to my sister last month and such affections like in the early days ... then I discover she is still keeping in contact with OM. I unintentionally found info just today (unbeknownst to her), she used her cell phone to call OM three times since, 09/15, 09/26 & 10/12. The most recent was when she went to D18's candle party she was hosting. The call was made between the time she left there and when she came home. 
).