WAH #4

[25yearsmlc]

Sorry to hijack.

Kassie I wish you could tell that to my W now that I have quit drinking. I have tried to tell my W all the problems that were related to the drinking. But in one ear and out the other.

Kevin

Kass, I was going to post to you about this but then saw K4D's post, I had to jump in now. "Not drinking anymore" is a STEP in a 12 step program. There is so much more to true recovery than merely not drinking. If your h does not know this (and same goes for you Kev, I'm shocked that you Kev, of all people on this site, think your drinking was the only problem even now, when you admitted you've "never learned to be happy" , you don't see a self medication issue there, ???!?!?! which has been pointed out to you a dozen times. You have not understood 90% of what is posted on your thread...)

Anyhow, Kass, as a 12 stepper myself, (with 14 years out) and as the d of a highly functioning alcoholic, who did recover eventually but took years of true introspection to "get it" I urge you to attend al-anon meetings and read all you can on this complex condition. It's physical and psychological and spiritual.

Your h's cessation of the alchohol is simply a starting point in a long journey. (Also, his attitude towards your exh is an example of him taking the focus off his recovery to put it elsewhere, and say "See, I'm not THAT bad" which many many people who are not yet recovered do. He needs to Keep HIS focus on HIS recovery... Your h is an alcoholic in recovery. Do you get that? I'm not trying to give you a 2 x 4 or if I am, a gentle one. Do you agree that he is an alcoholic? He is not cured and the rest of his character flaws (which we all have) are not all gone b/c he stopped treating his problems with alcohol.

Your h is not "all fixed" nor are you all healed, and neither is the M and that's okay. It's a long journey and it's work, but "work" does not suck, I mean it's life.

I hope this reaches you.

And yes some M's do reconcile. But yes, it takes work and if you check out my signature and time line, you'll see more of what I mean. GOOD LUCK on this journey...I have so much respect for 12 steppers who make it. 2 years is usually the goal (after the first 90 days) and once we reach that, it gets much easier to look within and really really do the work. The good work.
j-

PS (And kevin, as for "going in one ear and out the other" you are the kettle calling the pot black. Post that comment on your own thread, and see the responses...if people will still post to you after seeing a boneheaded comment like that. )

[kassie]

Tonight, H came over for the night. Tommorrow I am going to a conference to see Caroyn Myss, intuitive healer with some friends for the day. d has her first date Sat night and wants us to be there for her. H and I will probably go out for dinner. Sun we may take a short day trip.

H is struggling with sponsor who wants at meetings everyday... H is going to about 3-4 a week and church. Still in IC. Don't know what to say. H is sober, enjoying life everyday, and still having new awareness and new feelings. He talked all day about my d and her boyfriend - he has them M already... and tonight he talked about some new feelings for my son and the problems he is having. It's great.

[K4D]

25,

I hadn't even responded yet. I was going to say no, that wasn't the only issue. I was just saying that drinking created a lot of issues. And it did.

And you are right. In one ear and out the other would be calling the kettle black.

Can't argue there.

Kassie, I don't think there is anything anyone can do except me in my situation. Thanks though. I just really wanted to agree with you on the drinking and the number of problems that in itself causes.

Sorry for the hijack again.

Kevin

[25yearsmlc]

I love Carolyn Myss! Have you read "Sacred Contracts" (you would like that I bet) and her work on Archetypes? Very interesting and provocative. The archetypes talk about the patterns in life we take and it's just really thought provoking...Also like Wayne Dyer and Marianne Willaimson (she's the author who said' Forgiveness is our way out of hell" in my signature block).

If your h's sponsor wants him to do daily meetings, why won't he? I mean why'd he pick him as a sponsor if there isn't enough trust to do as the sponsor suggests? Did your h do the first "90 days, 90 meetings"? That's pretty standard but honestly, after that it goes by what you can fit in. My job and kids took time so I could only do 5 meetings a week after the first 6 months, and I'd go at lunch time. Sometimes a crisis or event would trigger feelings and I'd need 2 meetings a day. I don't know how long it has been now for your h. Did you say 3 months? After how long of drinking? I mean has he been a drinker for years and years and now that he's been sober for 3 months he doesn't feel the need to follow his sponsor's advice or go to daily meetings...? Is that an accurate account of what you are saying?

Has your h had a spiritual awakening of any type? If he has, and if he allows it to truly get into his soul, his whole world view will change. Most people in recovery who truly really "get it", do NOT want to rush things...so let me say that his desire for all to resume as if all is well now,and to simply move forward, scares the crap out of me.

I don't want to be negative. I am glad he's sober. But again. I urge you to read the materials Al Anon has for you, and other books about co-dependencies and addiction...what have you got to lose?

(( j ))

[kassie]

Hi 25,

Carolyn was fantastic! She was lecturing on her new book, Defying Gravity. Left me with a lot of thoughts. I am very familiar with many in this area and have learned many skills myself. I have read all her books. Carolyn M would classify me as a mystic with many mystical experiences. H was involved in a spiritual search and then had an awakening this past year which helps a lot. He is also in IC.
He respects his sponsor, but feels that working fulltime in a stressful job, going to IC, church, and meetings and working out, and seeing me is a lot on his plate. He reads daily, and is working on managing his stress. I think he is doing a good job.
His IC thinks he is working very hard and will ok not doing meetings daily. H attends about 4 meetings, church, IC, gym 3 times a week, and calls his sponsor daily.

Sponsor is 30 years into sobreity and connected to Bill W himself. Very AA and not keen on therapy. Defects h has are a result of prior wounds that he never recovered from, but is now doing that work. Defects related to his drinking he is slowly catching through the readings and meetings.H used to be anger and fearful all the time, now he is happy for the first time, he is peaceful, overcoming his fears, and caring about others. All good.

I know a lot about A, and went to alanon a few months two years ago to learn more. H has been trying to stop for four years. This is his longest time and what convinces me of his sincerity is the emotional growth i see and hear daily. He doesn't argue, he thinks things through, he is resolving things and no longer a hermit.

I mentioned things I am learning about how A affected him, and us, because I am surprised that he can take the responsibility that he has and put learning to good use. I believe that people are often living in recovery from life, and so that concept is growing for me as well. I have learned much more compassion for my H and others. I am learning a lot about myself, and H is helping me with his feedback. I actually feel relief now.

I am aware that this takes time and work, H has proved to me that his sobriety is important and the M is important, and what better way to tell someone how you feel about them. H also expresses appreciation for my not giving up on him. He couldn't do that before.

So, I think we are good for today.

[Startingover2]

AA and recovering from drinking is alot of work. No wonder more A's don't do it....of course its well worth it, but it must look like a huge mountain to them. The physical withdrawl symptoms, the meetings, the new coping and social skills that need to be learned. Guess that is why most of them continue drinking.

Hope you have a great Father's Day. Are your kids going with their dad for the day?

[kassie]

Well, kids went to breakfast with their F this am. which i don't know if it would have happened if I didn't call their F and remind him that while it wasn't his weekend with them, it is F day. I lied and told him the kids had plans. Then I talked to the kids and I guess they pulled something together. While I thought to do it all, H suggested that I call their F and remind him to check with the kids. Big step for him.

The day was good. H helped me around the house and called his sons. Neither answered -what surprised me was that he did reach out to the one who is still actively drinking. We just learned that SIL will either sell or foreclose on his home Tues. can't reach him. I feel so bad for his exw and kids. He also has to come up with a lot of money for settlement, seems he refinanced the house and spent it all on his drinking. Heard that current girlfriend's parents might put up the money (SIL has been living at their place since last fall when GF thought living in the house alone was causing his drinking.) Too much for me!

H and I had a few "deja vu " moments this weekend, and talked through them pretty well. When I went to conference yesterday I worried all day, kept checking my phone etc because of past behavior. When I got home he was quiet and I thought the worst because that was his old behavior - being quiet when angry that I had fun without him. Instead he was trying new behavior of letting me talk about my day first instead of monopolizing me the minute I returned.

Today he brought up a question about money when he moves back in. It sounded like the old H - questioning the budget and how I spend our money. Instead he asked a question, listened to my reasoning and agreed with me. Reminded me that he just had a question, but wasn't questioning my decision.

For those in the AAprogram, I heard the discussion with his sponsor last night and I swear I would be drinking myself if someone talked to me that way and showed no understanding of what I needed. H and sponsor are disagreeing about his attendance going down from everyday to four times a week. Is that something to argue about? It isn't like he is drinking or sitting around when not at a meeting - he is keeping busy and doing a lot for himself.

[Startingover2]

I am not sure what the protocol is for AA and sponsors. Maybe sponsor is worried that he is still a newbie and maybe will get weak. You know he is keeping busy, but I am sure as we all know an A can lie pretty easily if they want to. Sounds like sponsor is just trying to keep your H accountable.

[volleydog]

It's natural to cut down on the number of meetings as sobriety increases, you don't need to go as much...I probably only go now to a few a month, and that's just to keep in touch with friends. A sponsor can and should suggest what he feels is a proper number of meetings but should listen to your H and they should plan together.

[25yearsmlc]

Kassie,

If the sponsor has an issue with your h's attendance then I'd listen very carefully. The sponsor may well know things about H that counselor does not or c doesn't see thru A's BS (I'm saying that as one who was there, not as a judge). And I'm speaking only from my personal experience and what i saw. But the "Squabbles" between sponsors and newbies are usually reflective of the newbie resisting something important. Most often it's the sponsor wanting the sponsoree(?) to attend more meetings or to avoid a stressor/triggering activity. Way more often than not, the sponsor ends up being more or less vindicated. There IS a reason the sponsor is saying what he is saying.

So, while none of us "know" what's going on, I'd err on the side of the sponsor for now. Besides, your h tried this for 4 years and already is cutting down after how long? How long did he go before relapsing last time? Wasn't ONE sign of his relapses, in retrospect, not doing the meetings as often? It IS a slippery slope and I know you cannot maintain the daily meetings consistently and forever if you have other stuff going on but I know many who have, and besides the other "stuff" like your life, gets destroyed if recovery isn't maintained...

IMO, b/c nothing else good in his life, will occur or remain without full recovery, then his priority IS recovery. So the sponsor is afraid that if your h slides down from daily meetings this quickly it is not a good sign.

FWIW, going to meetings never added stress to my life; on the contrary it lowered it. Still does. So I'm surprised that your h is saying that the meetings are burdensome. Am I missing something? Hope so.

You made a comment that I think is totally on point in your post with words to the effect that "we're good for today"....and today is enough.

Hence the whole, "just for today" attitude. People outside the 12 steps may not realize it but as DBers they should. When we face "marital recovery" which = reconciliation and the restoration of our marriages, it looks daunting.

Even marrying can look that way when you say to yourself, I will NEVER be with another man/woman and must FOREVER put their needs ahead of mine etc...but if you say, "I'm doing my best as a partner each day, starting now..." and keep it up long enough, soon decades of sobriety, marital harmony or commitment are achieved. So yeah, for today, is all you can do.

But the sponsor talk is "reality therapy" and I would not second guess it to your h. Don't undermine the sponsor please. Was it the sponsor who knew Bill W and/or is a long time recovering person? If so, SUPPORT the sponsor and by doing so you are doing your h a favor. Don't enable him to undermine and second guess the expert.

Please, please understand that the sponsor KNOWS that "real life" comes at you and meetings wax and wane but NOT so early in the recovery. Your h is new to this. Really he is very new to this by AA standards, so bear that in mind. Do You realize most sponsors would doubt your h is ready to reconcile? Doing so now would be a stressor to any of us, let alone when we were new to sobriety, and your reactions to his every move indictate a part of you that is not fully trusting your h yet either. Food for thought.

That's my take on it. BTW, I took ALL of my sponsor's advice. I had not been actively using for long (post back surgery and prescription meds were my problem, and the timing of my father's death, etc) but I had many years of adulthood without being under the influence so I knew I knew how to be happy and sober. For those who have been actively using/drinking for decades it is much harder and takes longer to put in new ways of thinking that sink in, b/c they may not recall being happy without being buzzed or high or drunk...literally. One of my childhood friends began drinking and smoking pot in high school, and went overboard and never stopped. He has done some serious damage to his body and mind, and it's as if his emotional growth stopped at age 17. Honestly. He can't concentrate enough to read a book that's for sure, and he seems easily distracted and easily angered...and can only stop using while IN rehab...but I think to him the task is something he cannot visualize since he never had it before. Does this make sense? Has your h got any memories of being happy as an adult, without booze? If not, it takes a long time to get past the lie that tells him "you can only relax and be happy and laugh hard/(and physically produce happy endorphins--which does take your body awhile to re-learn but it DOES happen in time and that's a fact, so don't let him give in to the lie) if you drink..."

Like I said, I did do what my sponsor said but It was not easy and I rationalized and justified and we argued a lot, so it got interesting, but in the end I decided to trust her, and did as she asked...and I am so thankful God got me to listen to her...(I really truly think God sent her to me). It was so odd how we met and connected, and she was exactly who I needed at that time in my life. She had been through so much that related to my sitch. God bless her for hanging in there with me!

Good luck,
J-