Over the Shock and GALing 5

[Greek]

Mrs. Thinker is desperately looking for a separation. She is miserable and (self admittedly) does not understand what is going on between us. She knows that when I am out of the house she is more relaxed, and therefore happier, than when we are here together. As a solution, she proposed a separation.

Her idea of a separation is that since I work from home and can therefore work from anywhere, I should move to my parents or somewhere else where we have family and work from there. In her mind this would give her the separation from me she desires, the kids don't have to move, we just tell the kids that Daddy has to work away a lot now, and everyone is happy...

I would love to hear from others who have advice or have been on one side or the other of this situation.

Thinker ~
I did and said the same things as Mrs. Thinker when I wanted to separate. I told Coach I thought he should be the one to leave (he makes more than me, I wouldn't leave the kids, it was all his fault...) but he dug in and...he was right to do so. I ended up leaving with the kids...and that is how it should have been. BECAUSE I WAS THE ONE WHO WANTED TO SEPARATE! Coach didn't want any part of a separation - it was all me, and it was not fair of me, immature of me and chicken sh!t of me to ask him to do my dirty work. When it was clear that he was not budging, I put my money where my mouth and my hurt were - I put on my big girl panties - and I left.

Coach didn't know he was doing it at the time, but by not leaving, he made me OWN what was mine in the mess. If my heart was THAT broken, then I'd have to find a way to heal. And I did. I got out. And I didn't know I was doing it at the time, but by leaving, I made him OWN what was his in the mess.

Thinker, if you don't think you should live separate from your wife and kids, then do not leave. It is that simple. If she is under so much stress, pain, duress and heartbreak, then she should leave. It is that simple.

When you talk with her about it, no matter what she offers, threatens, screams, demands ~ stay apart from the hysterics and let her know in your best measured voice, "I do not believe a separation is in the best interest of this family. I will not leave my home." Buddy, you can't control what she'll do next but you are LOVING her by forcing her to stand up to what she's advocating. You'll know soon enough how serious she is - and so will she.

When Coach and I were at that point in our marriage, he made NOTHING easy for me. No shortcuts. And I'm so thankful to him for standing his ground. Mind you, I was nine kinds of p!ssed at the time! *Coach just read this and said "nine kinds of p!ssed is really selling myself short.* But looking back, him standing firm on his values and beliefs allowed me to see very clearly what mine were, too. Does that make sense?

Happy Fathers Day, Thinker. Hey ~~~ what would you tell your son to do in this case? What would you tell your daughter?

Cheers ~~~

[Greek]

"Hmmmm, I don't agree with that, but let me think about it for a minute"

"Hmmm, that causes problems for me and I would have to change my schedule. Let me think about it for a minute."

"Hmmm, I am not sure if I agree with that as a good use of our money, but let me think about it for a minute"

When you don't agree with her, try:

"Say that another way to me so I can understand better what you mean." Then LISTEN!

Always find SOME point of agreement in what she says - no matter how small it is. "Yeah, I see what you mean about such and such."

"Help me figure out how I can rework my sched around what you're planning so it works for both of us."

I love the "say it another way" or "ask that a different way." It says "I'm listening. I'm looking for common ground and your first delivery didn't offer that. Let's take another run at it."

[Thinker]

"Hmmmm, I don't agree with that, but let me think about it for a minute"

"Hmmm, that causes problems for me and I would have to change my schedule. Let me think about it for a minute."

"Hmmm, I am not sure if I agree with that as a good use of our money, but let me think about it for a minute"

When you don't agree with her, try:

"Say that another way to me so I can understand better what you mean." Then LISTEN!

Always find SOME point of agreement in what she says - no matter how small it is. "Yeah, I see what you mean about such and such."

"Help me figure out how I can rework my sched around what you're planning so it works for both of us."

I love the "say it another way" or "ask that a different way." It says "I'm listening. I'm looking for common ground and your first delivery didn't offer that. Let's take another run at it."

Thanks Greek,

Let me explore that for a minute with you. I like your suggestions, but am having trouble applying them to the situations where I tend to get exasperated and not be a good listener.

Most of them tend to be sudden complaints or pronouncements on the part of my W.

Here are some examples:
1)
Sitch: We are on vacation, I have taken time off from work, we have a 7-day package at a resort, the kids are in the back of the car and we are driving to get there.

Pronouncement: "We are not going to drive all the way today. We'll stop at my sisters for a day and then get there tomorrow"

My Reaction: "What?!! That's not the plan? Where did that come from? That's out of our way, and will add distance to the drive. Plus, we'll miss the first day at the time share."

Reality: Over the next hours I accepted the change in plan and got to agree with it. We had really started the drive too late, and traffic was horrendous. In the end we all welcomed the break in the middle. I told her that her idea to stop was the correct one and resulted in an overall better vacation.

2)
Sitch: I have been training for months for a triathlon. I ran it yesterday and was excited. I wanted my family there to support me, and based on how I had played pit-crew for my W's races in the past, expected her to do the same. We had tentatively made plans for this, and now it was 1 day before.

Pronouncement: "I am not going to go tomorrow. The weather is supposed to be yucky, and I don't want to get the kids up early. Plus I have stuff to do."

My Reaction: "What?!! This is important to me! We all got up early for your races. I want the boys to be there to see what I am doing."

Reality: "After a bit of thought, I decided that my expecting my W to support me in the way that I had supported her in past years was just that...my EXPECTING. I also did not want her being there grumping around and spoiling the event. I told her that she did not have to go if she did not want to. She should stay home with S1. S4 and S6 came with me and my sister watched after them and took pictures. We had a great time.

----
In both of these cases, W's pronouncement was a sudden change of plans and directions and a disappointment for me. In both cases I reacted negatively to the sudden change and pushed back.

W used both of these as examples in our discussion as to how (in her opinion) I am "always negative" and "always react badly to anything she want's to do" and how even though I eventually come around and understand and support her decision in the end (as I did in both of these cases) "the damage has already been done" and I "have already caused her pain"

I recognize that I can't control W's style of thinking something over in silence, making a decision for herself and then dropping it on me. All I can control is my own negative reaction - without, of course, just agreeing to everything she decides.

In hindsight, my first reaction has normally been to voice my disagreement with the decision and my resentment at having it dropped on me, and then to dispute the decision point by point.

I need to find a way to not agree, stall the decision, and open up a productive discussion.

So, your feedback? Suggested ways to handle these?

[Thinker]

Thinker, if you don't think you should live separate from your wife and kids, then do not leave. It is that simple. If she is under so much stress, pain, duress and heartbreak, then she should leave. It is that simple.

Thanks for the support Greek. I completely agree, and this is the stance I have been taking.

Question: What was the wording that Coach used to tell you that this was your responsibility, or that he was not moving?

I have told my W that I am not moving, and that if she wan't a separation, then she can leave. I said it calmly but was firm.

Her freak out over this is because for her, this is tantamount to trapping her here with me. You said that you did not earn as much as Coach, but my W does not have an income. She now has a small part time job (in her field) is just launching a business and has some clients, but could not pay rent, or even groceries with what she earns. The only feasible way for her to leave would be for me to pay for her to rent a nearby apartment.

So if she wants to separate, she would have to work out a complete separation agreement, including how much spousal support she would need during that period of time. I'd have to figure out how to pay the mortgage and still pay that spousal support, etc. I don't think she want's to face any of this. (and I am not volunteering to help her figure it out).

So basicly, that leaves her with "I'm Trapped! I'm Trapped! You are Trapping Me!"

Her work to deal with. I just want to make sure I am expressing my intent and position as clearly as possible without being antagonistic or appearing to use her plight for my own benefit.

Any suggestions for wording?

[Sara]

I have no doubt that your wife finds a way to do everything that she wants. If she wants to move out, she'll find a way to do that. Either she will borrow the money, or find a friend with an extra bedroom, or find family, or something. BUT, that's not what she wants. She wants you to move out and leave her life perfect, just the way it is, without you. I don't think there are any perfect words except, "no. That's not going to happen."

[Sara]

Thinker,

I just read further up the page and see that you work from home. And she doesn't work. So that means you are physically in the same space 24 hours a day. That is a lot, and very hard for most people to handle. I suggest that you find an office you could go to during working hours. There are some office shares available where you don't have to pay full rent, and some have a common receptionist. That way, you are not moving out, but you both get more space during the day.

[Thinker]

Thanks Sara,

I understand what you are saying, and my W has requested just that - "It's just too much. You are always here." There is also an alternative. My company has an office about a half hour drive from here. I work with none of the people who are in that building - it's a complete different division - but I could get an office there. I could drive there, go into my office, close the door, and talk on the phone all day - exactly what I do here at home.

My objections to this have so far been as follows:

1) the impact of me working here is minimal. I go into my office in the morning, and am there all day with the door closed. I come out for only a few minutes at a time (coffee, bathroom, quick lunch) and almost never see my W during those times. So there is an impact on her - but only "because she knows I am there", and not because I am interrupting her, getting in her way, etc.

2) The quality of life improvement for me improved dramatically when I started working from home. I got about an hour and a half of my day back. I'm healthier because I have time to exercise and because I eat better (no cafeteria food). I see my kids more because they wander in and out, hang out with me as I work, draw on my white board, etc. I am happier.

3) It is better for us as a family. We save $ on some of our bills because the company pays. We only have to maintain 1 car because I never need one, so save $ on car payments, insurance and gas.

4) It is actually better for my W. My W has been able to start her consulting business because she can leave S1 here napping and take off to meet clients, and S4 and S6 can hang out here in the house while I work. If she has a doctors appt, or otherwise needs someone to watch the kids, I can normally re-arrange my work schedule, free myself up and step in on short notice. I "go to work" (ie go upstairs) late enough that I can help get the kids off to school, and am always able to "get home" (ie come downstairs) early enough to help with the hectic pre-dinner rush.

---

So I am considering what you said, but I am not sure how much it would help (vs how much her complaints are a kind of scapegoat for her), and also am reluctant to give up all of the benefits.

Maybe I should look into it short term.

[Greek]

Thinker, if you don't think you should live separate from your wife and kids, then do not leave. It is that simple. If she is under so much stress, pain, duress and heartbreak, then she should leave. It is that simple.

Thanks for the support Greek. I completely agree, and this is the stance I have been taking.

Question: What was the wording that Coach used to tell you that this was your responsibility, or that he was not moving?

I have told my W that I am not moving, and that if she wan't a separation, then she can leave. I said it calmly but was firm.

Her freak out over this is because for her, this is tantamount to trapping her here with me. You said that you did not earn as much as Coach, but my W does not have an income. She now has a small part time job (in her field) is just launching a business and has some clients, but could not pay rent, or even groceries with what she earns. The only feasible way for her to leave would be for me to pay for her to rent a nearby apartment.

So if she wants to separate, she would have to work out a complete separation agreement, including how much spousal support she would need during that period of time. I'd have to figure out how to pay the mortgage and still pay that spousal support, etc. I don't think she want's to face any of this. (and I am not volunteering to help her figure it out).

So basicly, that leaves her with "I'm Trapped! I'm Trapped! You are Trapping Me!"

Her work to deal with. I just want to make sure I am expressing my intent and position as clearly as possible without being antagonistic or appearing to use her plight for my own benefit.

Any suggestions for wording?

Maybe Coach will read and chime in on this...but I think what he told me is basically what you've told your beloved. It was a crazy time but if memory serves, I believe he said it pretty plainly - "I'm not leaving our home."

As for your W being trapped - yep, she is. She has trapped herself. Look, if it's so damned bad with you, she will find a way. SHE will find a way. SHE could borrow money from Dad or a sibling. SHE could get a full time job. SHE could take the credit card and go to a Residence Inn for a couple of weeks to sort it out. SHE could stay with a friend. SHE could go to a lawyer and let the court pry you out of the doorway. That's what a big girl does. A big girl does not act like a petulant child who cannot have the toys all to herself.

By keeping the responsibility for separating where it belongs - with the one insisting it needs to happen - you are revealing some truth. Just how bad is it being married to you? If the house is on fire, Thinker, she would run out of the house in her PJs, all three kids in her arms and no purse, keys - nothing. That's one end of the spectrum and we know it's not that bad. Hold your line and let her discern just how bad it is. IN THE MEANTIME...Listen to her. See her and don't forget that she really is hurting. Something in this R has chipped away at her respect for you. SEE HER. Work on your part in the relationship. Work on yourself. Be responsible for you as husband, father, friend, provider in the home. GAL.

Don't leave. Lead.

[Greek]

"Hmmmm, I don't agree with that, but let me think about it for a minute"

"Hmmm, that causes problems for me and I would have to change my schedule. Let me think about it for a minute."

"Hmmm, I am not sure if I agree with that as a good use of our money, but let me think about it for a minute"

When you don't agree with her, try:

"Say that another way to me so I can understand better what you mean." Then LISTEN!

Always find SOME point of agreement in what she says - no matter how small it is. "Yeah, I see what you mean about such and such."

"Help me figure out how I can rework my sched around what you're planning so it works for both of us."

I love the "say it another way" or "ask that a different way." It says "I'm listening. I'm looking for common ground and your first delivery didn't offer that. Let's take another run at it."

In hindsight, my first reaction has normally been to voice my disagreement with the decision and my resentment at having it dropped on me, and then to dispute the decision point by point.

I need to find a way to not agree, stall the decision, and open up a productive discussion.

So, your feedback? Suggested ways to handle these?

What Coach does that I really like and might help you, is that he will come to me LATER and say, "Hey, you know it all worked out stopping at your sister's and I'm glad you thought of breaking the trip up like that. One thing that would help me in future is to give me a heads up. It helps me to be a part of things with you and I like that."

So what he's doing is approaching me confidently about his impression or feeling...but not in the heat of any moment. He comes without mood. He comes without expectation.

Congrats on the triathalon!
Cheers ~

[Gardener]

What Coach does that I really like and might help you, is that he will come to me LATER and say, "Hey, you know it all worked out stopping at your sister's and I'm glad you thought of breaking the trip up like that. One thing that would help me in future is to give me a heads up. It helps me to be a part of things with you and I like that."

So what he's doing is approaching me confidently about his impression or feeling...but not in the heat of any moment. He comes without mood. He comes without expectation.

Congrats on the triathalon!Cheers ~

Thinker, sorry to hijack, but this is Greek's most recent post and I'm trying to contact her as I would like to ask her to take a quick look at my relatively short thread and do me the kindness of giving me her take on my situation.
Thanks,

We now return you to Over the Shock and GALing 5, already in progress...