Newly separated...spouse left, 4th thread

[antlers]

I'm going to tell you right now (having not read the whole thread yet), every time I check in and see how guilty you are, I want to scream. Maybe you can take this space and get a more objective picture of what happened and the role your wife played. When H left, he laid it all on me and I lapped it up because I knew there were kernels of truth. It took me a while to see the traps that were set for me and how I was mistreated.

You will not get anywhere IMO while you are feeling guilty and left behind. We all have choices and it is her choice to decide that she is done...that is a painful choice but of course she is entitled.

I want to read back. Lots going on with me. I need to get some more things done (GAL)...but I have had this feeling when I come to your thread. I don't think I could really be attracted to someone who was that guilty. See SP's thread. You can feel culpable for your part, commit to doing better AND recognize the ways that your own best self was suppressed in the R.

I suggest you read Radical Forgiveness (Colin Tippens I think)...

As long as you have been so unforgiving of yourself, I don't think she can forgive you either.

This is a bit esoteric. You don't have to be in physical contact for that dynamic to change. And, no I'm not religious but there is an energy factor IMO.

Can you, for the sake of expediency just recap what your sitch is right now? Living separately? Communicate how frequently? Kids?

Hey aliveandkicking,

I'm not a martyr. I don't take the blame for things that I'm not responsible for. But it would be dishonest of me to try to convince myself that things were other than what they were. How could I 'get better' if I weren't honest about the situation? I'm brutally honest, especially when it comes to this. I had a lack of compassion, plain and simple, and it resulted in a lot of anger, resentment, and verbal abuse on my part. Unfortunately, I vented these negative emotions at my wife. My feelings had nothing to do with her either...it was me! I had some insecurities (feelings of being inadequate and unlovable), and I didn't know how to deal with them appropriately. I am objective. I can see clearly now, where I couldn't before. I know so much more, and I feel so differently now. She put up with more from me than probably any 20 women would have. She didn't 'lay' it on me...I knew that I had some problems. I just didn't know what they were or how to deal with them in the right way. I was controlling and overbearing...I was a mean prick! I took her for granted and didn't place the importance on her that she truly deserved.

I wouldn't say that I feel guilty, but I do feel a tremendous amount of remorse for my past behavior. I messed up bad, and I know it. And it's hard to lose something so cherished and special (her) because of my past behavior. I am getting somewhere, as I am so much better than I have been in the past. That's not to say that I don't miss her and am 'over her'. She reminds me of the WAW that Michelle talks about in her article on the subject on this site.

I'm not guilty...I've just shouldered my responsibility for my share of the problems...and they were overwhelmingly my fault. I'm not a martyr...that's just the plain truth. And it's hard to live with. The loss is bad enough, but to have lost it because of my selfish and self-centered behavior (lack of compassion), well...it's a hard truth. I can't lie about the reality of the situation in order to be attractive to somebody. I am committed to doing better, and I truly am much better now than a couple of months or more back.

I am forgiving myself. I'm human, and I screwed up bad. God has forgiven me, I believe. And I hope my wife will one day forgive me, for her own benefit as well as for me. I believe my children are forgiving me too!

"As long as you have been so unforgiving of yourself, I don't think she can forgive you either." That makes sense. I am forgiving myself, and I hope she will forgive me too...for the reasons I stated above. She suffered a lot of unhappiness because of 'me'...and I suffered a lot of unhappiness because of 'me'.

Well, we're not in any physical contact...darn! I know, and believe, that if only one person in the relationship changes...the relationship itself 'has' to change. That's the dynamics of it. I put a lot of stock in what Coach says...and I sure hope he's right!

Right now, I live in our home. She moved out on Feb. 22nd. She lives a few miles down the road. We share our kids 50-50. We are separated. Nothing legal has been filed as of yet. We have 3 kids...a son who is 11, a daughter who is 12, and a daughter who is 20 (she lives in her own place). Our only communication is regarding the kids, and it is almost always texting. She has told me some pretty hurtful things since she moved out, and she has had a tremendous amount of anger towards me, especially after we separated. I'm living in limbo right now, although I am actively working on myself, and have been...for a good while now. I'm getting it done too! I still have some pretty low periods, I guess we all do...but I am a better man than ever, I am a better father than ever, and I will be a better partner than ever...someday.

[mnt_dreams]

antlers - I think it's good to recognize your contributions, but maybe what a&k is saying is not to focus too much on that and really the past... and look forward now.

Well, we're not in any physical contact...darn! I know, and believe, that if only one person in the relationship changes...the relationship itself 'has' to change. That's the dynamics of it. I put a lot of stock in what Coach says...and I sure hope he's right!

I was just reading some of Michele's articles and this one follows along with the concept of changing yourself, and the R will change too.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_why_change.htm

I think you're doing well. You are 'owning' your responsibility as you should - just don't take more on than you deserve.

[aliveandkicking]

Do you see her when kids are exchanged? School events? Anything?

I love that you take responsibility. I think it is virtuous and necessary.

I don't believe that you have truly forgiven yourself and I don't blame you.

I have to ask, was there anything she could or should have done differently? I am not saying blame the victim if you were abusive. I am not saying accept or defend your sh*tty behavior. I am asking for the sake of understanding your dynamic (which requires two dysfunctional people to perpetuate), what was her part?

I'm assuming you were together for quite a long time. What was her deal?

I promise you, I am not trying to take your hard earned accountability from you AND if you want to change and live an love, you've got to be able to see this objectively and know that she did this dance with you. Ok, she's done, that's good! She's awake and changing and taking responsibility to some extent by saying "no more" (which is a gift to both of you because you suffered being the guy you were). So, now, it is your turn to recognized that even at your worst, you served her in some way (sorry if I'm offending some)...please take a look at the book I recommended, it is very eye-opening. Can you accept on any level that she needed to go through whatever that was and so did you?

As for the loss and regret, we are ALL there, regardless of perceived degree of culpability. I had a friend who knows H say to me tonight that I clearly did everything I could in my M. And I argued with her about it. Regardless, there's no way to lose that feels good, especially when someone else appears to be in control.

Here's a radical thought, maybe for you to be a better man and reach your potential and learn how to really love, you need to lose that R. And you can't be an improved you and be with an unchanged her. You know? Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm making sense to me. What you have described is a sick R with two participants. A total game change is necessary. Hopefully, she will see her part and it goes way beyond that she allowed herself to be with you. Trust me, she's got plenty to work on. And, what if she doesn't change, doesn't grow, wants to be angry and blame you forever? Is that the W that will fit with the super improved Antlers. I'm not messing around here. At some point the LBS has to stop being "left behind." It is just so unhealthy. I'm telling you, I personally can't take it anymore. I am sovereign individual not someone who only exists in the context of who I am to H. I know you get this but I feel you are still hanging on. When do you get to stop chiding yourself? You really do that. When do you start anew?

I heard a guy speak not too long ago. He had actually killed someone in an alcohol fueled rage. After he was released from prison, he went on to save an entire family from a burning building (happenstance), was pardoned and subsequently went back to school, got a masters in psychology and now counsels other addicts.

So what're you going to do?

[antlers]

Do you see her when kids are exchanged? School events? Anything?

I love that you take responsibility. I think it is virtuous and necessary.

I don't believe that you have truly forgiven yourself and I don't blame you.

I have to ask, was there anything she could or should have done differently? I am not saying blame the victim if you were abusive. I am not saying accept or defend your sh*tty behavior. I am asking for the sake of understanding your dynamic (which requires two dysfunctional people to perpetuate), what was her part?

I'm assuming you were together for quite a long time. What was her deal?

I promise you, I am not trying to take your hard earned accountability from you AND if you want to change and live an love, you've got to be able to see this objectively and know that she did this dance with you. Ok, she's done, that's good! She's awake and changing and taking responsibility to some extent by saying "no more" (which is a gift to both of you because you suffered being the guy you were). So, now, it is your turn to recognized that even at your worst, you served her in some way (sorry if I'm offending some)...please take a look at the book I recommended, it is very eye-opening. Can you accept on any level that she needed to go through whatever that was and so did you?

As for the loss and regret, we are ALL there, regardless of perceived degree of culpability. I had a friend who knows H say to me tonight that I clearly did everything I could in my M. And I argued with her about it. Regardless, there's no way to lose that feels good, especially when someone else appears to be in control.

Here's a radical thought, maybe for you to be a better man and reach your potential and learn how to really love, you need to lose that R. And you can't be an improved you and be with an unchanged her. You know? Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm making sense to me. What you have described is a sick R with two participants. A total game change is necessary. Hopefully, she will see her part and it goes way beyond that she allowed herself to be with you. Trust me, she's got plenty to work on. And, what if she doesn't change, doesn't grow, wants to be angry and blame you forever? Is that the W that will fit with the super improved Antlers. I'm not messing around here. At some point the LBS has to stop being "left behind." It is just so unhealthy. I'm telling you, I personally can't take it anymore. I am sovereign individual not someone who only exists in the context of who I am to H. I know you get this but I feel you are still hanging on. When do you get to stop chiding yourself? You really do that. When do you start anew?

I heard a guy speak not too long ago. He had actually killed someone in an alcohol fueled rage. After he was released from prison, he went on to save an entire family from a burning building (happenstance), was pardoned and subsequently went back to school, got a masters in psychology and now counsels other addicts.

So what're you going to do?

No, we don't see each other when the kids are exchanged. She lets them out when she brings them over while she stays in her car, and I do the same when I bring them over to her place. We don't see each other at school events or anything else. We did initially after we separated, but she got to where she didn't want to do that anymore. We would initially sit together at games and events, but she got to where she didn't want to do that anymore.

I think it's necessary for me to take responsibility too! How could I learn if I weren't honest?

I am truly working on forgiving myself...I am getting it done with God's help and determination of my own. It is hard though because I lost someone very special (she would have walked on fire for me at one time)because of my bad decisions and bad behavior.

The only thing I can think of is that I wish she would have come to me and said specifically, "I'm gonna leave if things don't improve...I'm gonna leave if you don't change for the better". That never happened. When she decided to go, there was nothing I could say or do to stop her. I was verbally abusive, full of anger and resentment...and I won't rewrite our history to suit my needs. It was that way. We would have been in tall cotton had I been, in the past, the way that I am now. She would have loved me like she did, and I wouldn't have taken her for granted, and I would have given her the value, respect, and compassion that she deserved. I can't defend my behavior, as I was just plain wrong. As far as the dynamic goes, I think she hung in there far longer than any 20 women would have...and I don't think she was dysfunctional for doing it. She loved me. She has said since then, that she is also pissed at herself for staying in a bad situation for as long as she did. I hate it that 'this' had to happen for me to pull my head out of my a$$.

We were together for nearly two decades. Her deal was that she loved me and was committed to me and our marriage...and I drove her away. Basically. She got to where she couldn't do it anymore. I was caught so off guard when this happened, and when it started happening...and since then...she has been like a different person. She's like another person...other than the one I've known for the last twenty years.

I do see it objectively aliveandkicking, and I know that it takes two...but it was overwhelmingly my doing. That's just the fact of the matter. I've learned so much since then, and I am already a better man and father, and I will be a better partner. I loved her, tremendously. I just didn't have the necessary tools (knowledge ?) at the time to do the things and handle things the way that I should have. It's a hard thing to accept 'that'... but this 'has' happened, and she is changing, I suppose, as much as I am. Like I said...she is like a differnt person compared to the one I've known and lived with for all these years.

She loved me once, and she left me. I have a lot of remorse, especially now that I see how wrong I was! Losing her was bad enough, but losing her because of the way I treated her...well, that's a whole other world of pain and remorse. But I have to keep on living...and I am. I'm better, in many ways. I ask God to help her and my kids heal, and to help me heal. And I ask God to forgive me (and I believe He has), and to help her and our kids forgive me...and to continue to help me to forgive myself. I know one thing for certain...I am a better person now than I've ever been, and I'm a better father now than I've ever been. I'm back to 100% at work, and have been for some time. Yeah...she had a lot of control through all of this. And she's maintained lot of it too. She knows how I feel.

I don't want our old relationship anymore aliveandkicking. I want a new relationship, built on a new foundation...but I want it to be with my wife. She's changing too, as a result of this. Our marriage was unhealthy, and something needed to change...and she initiated big changes for us both. I don't doubt that she has stuff to work on too, but she has a lot of hurt and other negative emotions to work through. After talking to some other WAW on this board who are familiar with my situation...they say the amount of hurt and anger for her to deal with is huge, and it takes a long, long time for her to begin to heal. Many people here who have been keeping up with me know that I am so much better and stronger now than I was in the past. And I will continue to get better and stronger. She left me...it happened. I thought I would die from it. I didn't. I won't. I would like to spend the rest of my life with the mother of my children. Will I get another chance? I don't know! If I don't get to, I will go on without her. I'll have to, and I will. I do get what you're saying, but I'm not 'hanging on'...I'm simply still hopeful that my wife and I can be together in the future. Coach says you can still live your life under these circumstances without giving up hope...and that's what I'm doing. You can continue to grow and learn without giving up hope...and that's what I'm doing. I'm getting stronger and more powerful...slowly. I'm getting more secure and confident...slowly. I'm a work in progress. A really significant change for me has been to learn to be more compassionate, not only to others...but to myself also. Compassion is the antidote for anger, resentment, and abuse.

I'm going to continue to do what I have been doing aliveandkicking. I'm gonna be the best dad to my kids that I possibly can. I'm gonna be the best man that I possibly can. And I'm gonna be the best partner that I possibly can...at some point on down the line. I'm gonna continue to DB! But I'm not gonna give up on a relationship with my wife right now. I still have hope. It doesn't look too good. But Coach has a lot of positive perspectives, from personal experience, for when things look their darkest. I'm gonna be OK though, one way or the other.

[Bridgestone]

Can you accept on any level that she needed to go through whatever that was and so did you?

Are you really asking him to accept that she did need to?? Do you believe that yourself??

What person "needs" to go through an on-going verbally abusive relationship?

The dynamics of a 'typical' WAW don't apply when there is no A, but there is abuse. You attempting to apply them is insulting to people who have been there done that. No one 'needs' to go through abuse.

I hear that antlers recognizes that, accepts it and as an WAW who was in an abusive relationship, both prior to and after leaving... I take offense, depsite your 'sorry for offending'.

While I understand you are trying to shake Antlers out of his pity pool, I can tell you in a nutshell what her 'role' in this dysfunctional relationship was....

*she loved him, more than she loved herself...
*she sacrificed more than he did, waiting patiently for him to reciprocate...
*she kept quiet & forgave, trying not to provoke more anger & abuse...
*she quit arguing with him because the consequences of 'winning' were worse than losing
*she let him be a temper-tantrum throwing 2 year old in their R, operating under the premise he should be responsible for his own behaviour, sadly.. she imposed no consequences when he did, thinking that was kind... it certainly was for her b/c when she tried to impose boundaries & consequences for his abusive behaviour.. it got worse.
*her 2 x 4's to Antler head, prior to her leaving weren't swung hard enough for him to notice

I support Antler's in his journey to 'saving himself'. As I know you do. I think I hear your attempts at asking him to look at her role in the dysfunctional R as a way for him to quit rolling in his pity pool & help him detach in a healthy way...

can you accept that his taking responsiblity for his actions and understanding his wife's role as I've outline above
may be his way of doing just that?

[aliveandkicking]

I still have hope.

As I think you should!!!

I want to respond to the rest and Bridgestone but darnit I have to run. Why can't I just sit here and post all day??? I'll be back...

[aliveandkicking]

Are you really asking him to accept that she did need to?? Do you believe that yourself??

I'm telling you that it may be semantics but seeing as the past is that past and they both did choose to be there and participate, yes, I do believe that.

I went through some horrible things as a child. I think there are adults who are culpable and there are no excuses. AND, that was what I needed to go through for one reason or another. Maybe it is the word "need" that bothers you. Of course it could have gone another way but it didn't.

Learning, growing, waking up in consciousness, taking responsibility, recognizing fault...excellent.

At the risk of p*ssing you off more, I'm telling you that allowing someone to abuse you is no favor to them. Both partners were lacking tools, boundaries, consciousness. And it takes however long it takes to see clearly, to break out. Some people never do. I am happy for Antlers and his W that change came.

There is more to life than being married just to be married...there is living and honoring yourself and another person...but yourself has to come first (and no, abusing someone else is not = to honoring yourself).

can you accept that his taking responsiblity for his actions and understanding his wife's role as I've outline above
may be his way of doing just that?

Yes, and I see that he has done that and maybe he needs to live in that space for a long time...not sure though.

I'm just not articulating this as well as I'd like. If you're interested in exploring further, I recommend Radical Forgiveness...it is extreme but enlightening as to how many difficult relationships are mutual processes with two willing participants working through something. Don't slam me, please...it is a very empowering concept for anyone feeling victimized or looking to forgive.

Antlers- your W may or may not find a way to see you as someone other than "that guy" in your M. I think you are right to have hope and also, as much as you love her, you know she needs to feel safe and heal and that is what you do for her now, you make it safe.

I was also thinking it could be cool for you to volunteer in some capacity to help abused or battered women. Make amends.

[antlers]

Can you accept on any level that she needed to go through whatever that was and so did you?

Are you really asking him to accept that she did need to?? Do you believe that yourself??

What person "needs" to go through an on-going verbally abusive relationship?

The dynamics of a 'typical' WAW don't apply when there is no A, but there is abuse. You attempting to apply them is insulting to people who have been there done that. No one 'needs' to go through abuse.

I hear that antlers recognizes that, accepts it and as an WAW who was in an abusive relationship, both prior to and after leaving... I take offense, depsite your 'sorry for offending'.

While I understand you are trying to shake Antlers out of his pity pool, I can tell you in a nutshell what her 'role' in this dysfunctional relationship was....

*she loved him, more than she loved herself...
*she sacrificed more than he did, waiting patiently for him to reciprocate...
*she kept quiet & forgave, trying not to provoke more anger & abuse...
*she quit arguing with him because the consequences of 'winning' were worse than losing
*she let him be a temper-tantrum throwing 2 year old in their R, operating under the premise he should be responsible for his own behaviour, sadly.. she imposed no consequences when he did, thinking that was kind... it certainly was for her b/c when she tried to impose boundaries & consequences for his abusive behaviour.. it got worse.
*her 2 x 4's to Antler head, prior to her leaving weren't swung hard enough for him to notice

I support Antler's in his journey to 'saving himself'. As I know you do. I think I hear your attempts at asking him to look at her role in the dysfunctional R as a way for him to quit rolling in his pity pool & help him detach in a healthy way...

can you accept that his taking responsiblity for his actions and understanding his wife's role as I've outline above
may be his way of doing just that?

Hi Bridgestone.

I appreciate you and your input more than you'll ever know. You absolutely hit the nail square on the head with your post. Your insight and perspective are pure GOLD for me. Thanks.

[antlers]

Antlers- your W may or may not find a way to see you as someone other than "that guy" in your M. I think you are right to have hope and also, as much as you love her, you know she needs to feel safe and heal and that is what you do for her now, you make it safe.

Hey aliveandkicking.

Thanks for coming back. I appreciate your time, your effort, and your perspective.

Maybe right now, as Bridgestone said earlier, the most loving, consistent, and kind thing I can do for her is to continue to leave her alone and give her the space and time she needs...to feel safe and heal.

It's hard, because I feel like nothing is happening with 'us'. But it's all I can do right now, under the circumstances. It may be like this a long time...I don't know. I'll continue to work on me and be a good dad and a good man in the meantime.

[Astimegoeson]

I'll continue to work on me and be a good dad and a good man in the meantime.

Hey Antler, just checking in on you. Sounds like your getting the hang of this. I don't mean that to sound like it's a learned sporting skill or something, but it's probably the only thing we can do in these situations. We only have control over our own actions.