Divorce looming #14

[K4D]

Thank ya,

Kevin

[CityGirl]

I took the kids swimming. We played a game in the pool. At a couple of points, D7 had to tell me to quit day dreaming. Gosh, what is wrong with me. I snapped out of it and we all had a good time.

Again, not being in the moment with your kids while they were swimming. What if you were so deep in your day dream one of them started to drown? My god. How sad that your little daughter had to tell you to be in the moment with THEM and not in your own head. I hope that hits you hard because it should. You are not portraying a strong, confident man to your daughters and you are not giving them your full attention. You are there but not *there*. And that is sad.

Honestly, I only took them for pizza tonite because I didn't feel like putting the effort into cooking tonite.

Again, sad. Your kids deserve healthy meals. Why not involve them in the process. There are many books about getting kids in the kitchen. Meal time should be family time and part of that family time could be the preparation. Stop taking the easy way out with them.

Tomorrow is W's birthday. It will be the first one we haven't spent together. Hopefully it will be the only one. I think that is what really has me down today.

No, Kevin, it wont be the only one because your M is over. My god, wake the hell up. Why do you think your marriage will be saved? What indication do you have? NONE. Not one bit. I am so tired of the "hopefully" crap.

I am tired, spent two hours at the dr, got some not so great results and I am tired of this nonesense for tonight. Sorry to be rude but you just kill me sometimes.

[K4D]

Tonite me and D7 were laying down and I picked up the bible and started looking at it. D7 asked if I would read it to her. I said sure and started reading some to her. We talked about some of it and she asked what some words meant.

Then she got quiet. I said whats up. She says she is just thinking. I said thinking about what. She says nevermind, its not important. I said if its on your mind, then it is important. She then says that she doesn't want mommy and me getting a divorce.

I said she is loved by both her mommy and me. I said whatever happens she will be taken care of. I said I don't want a divorce either. But she will be ok.

Then she fell asleep.

Kevin

[aliveandkicking]

Tonite me and D7 were laying down and I picked up the bible and started looking at it. D7 asked if I would read it to her. I said sure and started reading some to her. We talked about some of it and she asked what some words meant.

Then she got quiet. I said whats up. She says she is just thinking. I said thinking about what. She says nevermind, its not important. I said if its on your mind, then it is important. She then says that she doesn't want mommy and me getting a divorce.

I said she is loved by both her mommy and me. I said whatever happens she will be taken care of. I said I don't want a divorce either. But she will be ok.

Then she fell asleep.

Kevin

I think you did great (especially the line in bold). That kind of made my night, as sad as it is, nice to see you delivered for your daughter. IMO.

[25yearsmlc]

Kevin,
This will be my last post for awhile. So here goes a long one that I hope you read carefully b/c I wrote it carefully and I am not even billing you for my time ..so here goes...and I hope this does some good. I really do.

-Why not just reassure your d7 of some of the good things still in her life etc?
Telling her you don't want the divorce, which you've done about 20 times already, will naturally lead to her telling your w that. Which you knew and wanted. But then what kevin? You Think W will slap her forehead and say "OMG! Div hurts the kids! Div hurts Kevin and I have NO reason for it! I'll stop now and reconcile with Kevin b/c of all the changes I've seen in him, and b/c I know things in the M will be SO different for us now...thank GOD D7 told me Kevin didn't want the divorce! All this time...I thought he DID!!" Nope, that won't happen.

Best case scenario kevin, and I do mean best case scenario, she'll roll her eyes and sigh. More likely she'll curse at you under her breath b/c again you put her in the bad guy role (which you like to do a lot) to manipulate her, and ignored how you guys really got in this situation, and again she'll recount all the things you did that drove her away & into the arms of OM...oh and she'll likely also see you as being needy and pathetic and manipulative...Just my opinion.

CG--excellent post about the courtroom drama and wedding dress (and choices Kevin seems to want to make, over and over). I can't say I've seen that wedding gown tactic....very creative. (Thanks for that one & yes I did print it out.) Oh Kevin, CG's funny but I hope that after you laughed, you realized her point was valid and spot on.

- You may as well not be with your girls even though you brag to your w about how important being with them is to you....implying that it's not important to your w...b/c let's face it, you are not there for them. I know you are preoccupied, we ALL know that. But the thing that I don't get is that they're all you have now, and you're ignoring them and their needs so you can keep wallowing in your self pity. You forgot to arrange child care...?? That's not ( Super attractive or super effective) and it's sooo not what a loving father does. Snap out of it Kevin. Seriously, snap out of it!

Asking her to go to the seminar b/c the ad says "it saves 3 out of 4" marriages isn't a strong argument. Kevin, that just means that 3 of the 4 couples who go to that seminar and who are already more likely to stay together anyhow, DO...

It's not as if 3 out of 4 DB marriages HERE get saved...(We wish). Do you understand how that statistic is sort of meaningless? I'm not putting the seminar down, but the stat is useless and besides...she does not want to 'save' the marriage, she wants to end it...that's a big obstacle to "saving" it. And no, it would not "save anyone's conscience". What does that mean anyhow?

Oh, you think she's wracked with guilt, and you want to ease her of that? Um...Not an effective idea Kevin. Not at all realistic. And insulting to her. She does not feel guilty about leaving you even if she pities you. The pity confirms to her that you are not a worthy h for her anyhow. Would going to it ease YOUR conscience? IF so, then go by yourself. OR find another seminar or retreat for personal growth and individual work and go to one on your own. Maybe it's a good idea for you since once a week c will take longer.

I think the marriage seminar is a bad idea for at least 3 more reasons.

1- You've done nothing to move towards true change in you. You are the same man you were 6 months ago. That's why you repeat the same behaviors. Your w was not happy in the M so Why should your w get back together with you if nothing will be different in the M? She sees this. She's told you so. She's told you what to work on, in the past, and you didn't do it, so she has no motivation to go to anything with you, or to prolong the M (except as it benefits her financially).

2nd reason the seminar is not applicable or likely to help...

b/c you are not able to delay gratification, even for a greater goal.

That's why you didn't finish college, or the job training you could have taken classes for, but lost the job you had -for reasons that remain vaguely connected to you "losing it" at work & something about your w, etc. - and why you went to Florida to study but "it was just so hard" and THEN you were going to do it on your own, but then you came back to Dallas. (don't get bogged down arguing the finer points of the Florida trip if I'm off some, b/c it's not really significant)...
-Being unable to delay gratification is why you cannot go 24 hours without talking about her, and why you can't refrain from pursuing her even when you know it's a bad idea (b/c she told you not to, ) and even when you know in the long run it hurts your chances of reconciling..it's why you still pursue her

- B/C you feel you must have attention from her NOW, NOT LATER!! So even if it damages the R and ruins your chances of reconciling, you are so desparate & unable to wait at all....you blow it again, and again. That's a big fat problem you have.


If you went to the seminar and she saw some sparks in you it's not as if she'd THEN AND THERE recommit, but maybe she'd go home with you and try for a few days...and then....nothing b/c you have not changed and it won't take her long before the magic atmosphere of the seminar ends and you actually must implement the changes you choose to make. How can that happen Kevin? How can you as a couple change if you cannot change as a man? You are part of the couple...but you have resisted ALL attempts at changing within so why would something that must require change, now work? Why would this seminar make you change when nothing else has? Why should your w spend "alone time" with you when she has moving on in her mind...?? See, the inability to delay gratification dooms the efforts b/c it undermines them. Do you get this?

Hypothetically, If she told you to go totally dark for a year without ANY contact and promised you she'd come back to you AND she promised this in writing AND it was legally binding, AND you believed her, I believe you still would not be able to go without contacting her. Seriously. You don't know or understand how to delay gratification. That's a life skill you needed over 20 years ago. (But better late than never.)

It's probably why you had to get the GED instead of finishing HS too, but I'm just speculating. This is also why medical school sounded so crazy and funny to me. Why not do brain surgery Kevin? You like working with your hands, don't you? Oh wait, it takes way more than two weeks!! (worse, the w might NOT come back even then...)

That discussion particularly bugged me b/c I've seen first hand what it takes to get a medical degree, and it kills me to see you toss out such foolishness. Part of me wanted to laugh and part of me wanted to slap your face. What an insult to those who do so much work to have someone toss out such an ignorant statement. But then I realized, you don't know what you don't know. (Literally.) You know nothing of this topic, and I don't just mean medicine. Even when I shared so much with you, it went in one ear and out the other. (Since there was no "secret code/wording" to get your wife back fast, it bored you I guess.)

You have no idea what it's like to endure years and years of little or no pay, huge sacrifices for you and your family, long hours that are unrelenting, stressful work, complex research, complicated situations with life and death responsibility and consequences, with no "guaranteed pay off", b/c you can fail out at any point, and even if you stay in, you might lose it all in a lawsuit and it might not be worth it in the end. You better love what you are doing, and you better know how to delay gratification big time, b/c that is what it takes just to get in the door. SO when I saw your smug remark about that poor Master's degree student who's working his butt off to help people like us Kevin, I wanted to slap you silly. Why'd you put him down, and for what, his age??? His ambition?? That you are his first divorce case? Someone has to be the first div case he has...Oh I just wanted to scream at you!

So judgemental and of all people, you have gotten so much and done so little with it here. That's why I said you are Not 'just a divorce case" b/c you have so many other problems that the divorce happened b/c of those problems...


3- the biggest reason the M seminar is not applicable to your sitch relates to what I just said. Your divorce is not the problem you have, the divorce is ONE result, of the deep problems you have. Other results are
-- the inability to enjoy your daughters for more than 3 minutes at a time, the inability to discipline them without w, which means she does it, not you.
--the inability to be or act happy, the inability to see what you don't want to see or to be self aware with painful insights and

--the apparent inability to change yourself. Could be no desire to change yourself and rather, hope the world changes to meet your needs which I assume has been your approach to life so far... The lack of planning about things that are clear and obvious and important, like child care. The fact that you needed to sew a button on your shirt when you "realized" it would not happen magically so you said stated out loud that you would "have to learn how" to do it (I learned by myself at the age of 10, so LOSE THE HELPLESS ROUTINE, and who cares if it doesn't look perfect? Buy some thread the same color as the other buttons and a thimble and needle, and go from there...) no I don't see your divorce as "your problem"...Kevin, it's just one big thing on a list of things that happen when you have big issues inside to work on...

Finally, your wife told you she does not want to be with you. The very thing you could do that would at least get her to see that you have changed some, is time apart. But you will not allow for that. So your choice of "cure" and your needs being met NOW, are the opposites and the cure you seek, is the exact disease to her.

Kevin, You quoted me about how my h forgot saying some things when he was full blown MLCing and it certainly is a strange thing to witness. Been there, done that. I'm not so sure your wife is in MLC any more b/c we've all learned things now that we didn't know at first about your sitch, but regardless...you'll have to trust the the good feelings she once had will resurface on their own. You certainly cannot force them out and that should be crystal clear to you by now.

Yes K4, I did attend a workshop decades ago that lead to some real changes in ME and MY life. It was not a marriage seminar/workshop, and it was not designed for couples, per se. I did not go to change anyone but myself and even then, I really just went with an open mind and heart. It's a workshop for people who want to gain clarity and focus in their lives, to see where they sabatage themselves, to rid themselves of childhood baggage if it's still affecting their adult lives, etc. Not wallowing in victimhood but in exercising choice in our lives.

I went b/c my father's death happened at the same time we had another child, and I had a big career issue deeply bothering me. I had no agenda really, but I wanted something in me to change. At the time, I would have rated my marriage as an A-.

After the workshop I "woke up" and then I returned home to H. He noticed the deep changes in me "the minute I stepped off the plane" and of course then he wanted to go too. (He was not the type to do something like that before he saw my attitude change, so that's saying a lot.) Months later
off he went, and he loved it. Then we went back together to do some community out reach, and that's when we realized we had a M with the potential for even more, and we felt we were soul mates.

If not for that experience and the 15+ years following it, I doubt we'd have had ANY tools for dealing with what life brought us. It did not prevent us from ever having problems again obviously, and it didn't stop the MLC for h. But b/c of that time in our M and lives, we knew we once had something very special, and thanks to that workshop we also knew that there were resources out there for us like DBing, to gain the tools needed for [b]change within. And life will again throw each of us a curve ball for sure. So we need to always be open to "tune ups"...and sometimes "big overhauls..."

I wish you could understand what it means for you to really change yourself and not expect anything of anyone else, or to demand certain results...but to trust God, (or the "universe" or "higher power"), etc.

The workshop I went to "worked" b/c I had no expectations of anyone but myself. I wanted to feel more peace and clarity in my life. I wanted to cope with loss in a healthy way, and I wanted to be fully available to my new child and gain clarity about my career and its' role in my life. I wanted to let go of the things/people I had no control over, and not let 'externals' bother me inside anymore. I wanted to create balance in my life and invite more joy and love into it, without other things interfering with the goodness around. I had no "plan" whatsoever about h, or my boss at work being kinder, or anyone else doing something different. Just worked on me and how to be the best, happiest me.

It was a "personal growth" workshop that was very spiritual. When there are big "Internal" changes that people can see with their own eyes, it's their proof that the changes in you are real.

[color:#6600CC]You want to go to the seminar to change your wife and her heart. That's why it won't work Kevin. You need to go somewhere to change you and your heart.

Finally, the marriage seminar you want to attend deals with many issues. But as I said already (can't believe you're still on this) almost all of the parts you want your wife to work on are actually things you should work on AND the part that might apply to her, the adultery, she has already justified. The more you try to shame her into thinking she did anything wrong, and that her affair is somehow the focal point of the marital problems...the less likely you'll even be able to maintain a civil relationship with her at all.

I don't know another word for what you're really trying to do except manipulation or control...you are not interested in changing you. You just want her to come back now! (have you tried stomping your feet??)

Work on yourself. Do some more fathering to those girls of yours and back the heck away from your wife. If you can, ask a professional about how to learn to delay gratification and see how you can start deferring rewards...and maybe you'll learn how to back off and give your w some space. Maybe in time, (much much more than you want) your w would be open to a seminar if only to see if your changes were real. Not that she'd want to remarry you, but at least if you could show her you are a tiny bit diff. But for now, there are no changes and she knows this. So there's no point going and you really really are making things worse with this behavior. It's more proof that you are the same weak willed needy guy who hasn't done a thing for others without an agenda, and who is filled with needs and then some...
It makes you just look oblivious, and weirdly stubborn like you have not heard a word she/we have said. The clinging and neediness and "give her some space" requests have all been ignored by you. If you could do something about THAT, maybe other things could happen in your sitch. But you don't and you have to start with some basics. That's what the c is for.
Hoping you find the meds and c helpful Kevin, and that you can
open your mind and heart let God work on you and in you. I don't think God breaks down the doors to get in Kevin, I think you have to unlock the doors to your heart and mind, and let Him in. And trust Him to change you for the good & trust the results to Him as well. Please please leave the results to Him..if the M does not end up being restored, trust that God has something else planned for you around the corner....

J-

[CityGirl]

Kevin -

Dont you see that you are putting a terrible, terrible burden on your *very* young daughters by telling them YOU do not want the divorce? I mean really! Its almost cruel.

Do you think ANYBODY wants a divorce? The answer is usually no and most people walk away because they feel as if they have (even in their own mind) exhausted all options to be heard and repair the marriage. But little kids dont need to know that nor will they understand.

That would have been a perfect opportunity for you to practice validation of her feelings while keeping your own feelings to yourself. And validation is a skill you are lacking. And believe me, it is a learned skill.

A while back, several months ago I think, my H and I were talking and I said to him one of my biggest issues with him was he NEVER validates my feelings. EVER. And validation doesnt mean you agree or disagree with what the other person is saying it just means you let them know what they are thinking is valid and important. I even asked my H if he understood what validation meant (and I didnt do it in a snotty way) and I went as far as to tell him until I started C'ing I never really understood the concept either just so he wouldnt think I was talking down to him as if I knew it all.

It took a while but he did start at least trying to validate my feelings. Every once in a while he would even ask me if he was giving me enough validation which was awkward but at least he was trying to implement the concept.

I was 20 when my parents divorced and eventually I got tired of hearing my dad say certain things about my mom and the D. But I was an adult and was able to say... "yo, NO MORE, do not put me or my sister in the middle". Your kids are babies and cant do that.

You could have simply said.... "I understand daughter, divorce changes many things but the one thing that will never change is your mommy and me will always love you, put you and your sister first and we will always be there to take care of you". That would have offered her validation and reassurance and kept your feelings out of it. Your children are not mature enough to handle hearing about your feelings or problems or issues with your W or the D no matter how much you try and simplify it.

Your kids will tell your W what you said and again, you have made her the bad guy. Is she the bad guy? That is not for me or you to judge. What she *is* though is the mother to your children and in that regard she deserves respect even if you dont agree or understand her choices.

Just like you know how to manipulate your kids (most kids going through a divorce) know how to as well. Do not allow them to refine that skill. Stop it now or you will have a real mess on your hands that will continue to snowball out of control.

Do NOT talk to your kids about your W. Period. Do not ask your kids how or what your W is doing. If they bring it up find a way to change the subject in a subtle manner. Do not tell your kids of your struggles or unhappiness or your displeasure with the divorce. It is just not right.

You are correct, your kids had no say in this matter. So why make things worse for them? Its now summer and IMO a perfect opportunity to put them in some sort of counseling. Ask your free counselor what the options are for kids since you said their insurance ran out for C'ing sessions. Spend all day making calls if you have to in order for them to talk to somebody because they need it.

Today is Wed. - you have several days to put together an outline for your new counselor about ALL the issues you need to work on. I really hope you do that. Go through every post here and see what we see and mark it down. Certainly all the posters cant be that far off base if we are ALL seeing the same things.

Dont you get it that we want you to get better? We want you to be okay and thrive as a new man and father? But we can suggest and try and support and guide you until we are blue in the face but that very first step is up to you.

I am a big fan of the Dave Matthews Band and one song that always inspires me is "You Might Die Trying". The first line goes like this:

To change the world,
Start with one step.
However small,
The first step is hardest of all.

Do a Google search to hear the rest of the song. It applies.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CG,

As much as I disagree with pretty much everything else Kev is doing, I don't see anything wrong with him telling his daughters the truth, in an age-appropriate manner. I'm a huge proponent of kids shouldn't be lied to, and if one partner doesn't want a divorce, I don't believe in giving the kids the illusion that both parents are in favor of it.

There are ways to do this respectfully, and I think he did that, and there are even ways you can include the validation in it that you're talking about:

"We need to respect that Mommy feels this way, and that this is what she wants. I don't want it, but it's OK for grown-ups to disagree with each other sometimes, even about important things. I still love her very much, and I know you do too, and she will always be your mother and we have to respect her. Do you understand?" (or some such).

Many adult children of divorce report of having issues of being lied to, and I don't think it helps at all.

Puppy

[Done in VA]

I have been following this thread for a long time because I believe there to be some very good advice...although I have never before commented. My MC told me the same thing that if my sitch ends in D, it is not inappropriate to be honest in what each parent's stance was/is.

I believe in protecting our children, but also in being truthful. It's a hard line to balance, but I think Puppy did a good job of validating 2 different opinions in a respectful way above.

[CityGirl]

Like I said - I dont have children so maybe I should not be expressing my opinion on the matter. But I was a child of divorce (late teen/early 20 something) and I know how difficult it was for me and my sister (my sister is 3 yrs younger than me) to hear things from my dad.

I do think validation, no matter what the age of the person, is really important. I guess age appropriate validation is key. And maybe if Kevin alwayd didnt try and make his W the bad guy I might tend to agree with your more but the pattern has been ongoing.

But thank you for giving me a new way to think even if it doesnt apply to my situation!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CG,

You may be right in that I certainly haven't followed his threads the way you have. If this is part of a PATTERN of making his wife out to be the bad guy -- TO THE KIDS -- then they probably won't hear the carefully constructed words of validation that I suggested above. But I would probably still advise him erring on the side of the truth.

Puppy