Divorce looming #14

[CityGirl]

Well, I went to my counseling appointment. My counselor is a young guy earning his masters degree. I'm his first divorce case. Ok, fine. I will play along. He is going to see if he can help me. Yes I gave him a list of things primarily dealing with me and my own inabilities to be happy alone. Apparently they assign you a counselor and these are people who are supervised by real doctors. Interesting scenerio. But hey, the service is free. So why not give it a shot right? Lets see what the kid can do. So I guess I have appointments Monday nights.

I am glad you went and I am glad you have a standing appt. and I am glad it is free for you. Honestly though, you sound kind of sarcastic about the whole thing. People dont usually put in the time and money to earn a Masters degree simply for sh*ts and giggles so clearly it is something "this kid" is passionate and dedicated to. Often times young dr's are far more passionate and dedicated than older dr's (yes, this is sort of a sweeping generalization) because they arent yet jaded, they havent seen it all and they have a burning desire to learn. You are his first "divorce case". What a gift! Maybe you are working with the next brilliant mind in relationships and you dont even know it yet. To me it sounds very much like a "teaching hospital" type situation. The rheumatology practice I go to for my lupus is a teaching practice and I can assure you "the kids" that are there learning are some of the best. It just seems you either have a negative or sarcastic outlook on this and you should be viewing it as a HUGE positive step with a new counselor filled with fresh ideas and who is schooled on new and innovative techniques and its free. Wow! Now that is fortunate, no?

So W has the kids for me while I am at the appointment. I get over to her place and she puts in a frozen pizza for me. Very hospitable of her. So we are talking about the events her family has lined up for her this week. Her mom obviously doesn't want me there for any of them. So I make the comment that ya, nobody in the family will stand up to her mom. She agrees. So I ask her, why don't you? Ooooh I am so gonna get 2x4'd for this. But I wanted to hear it for my own self. She said her mom and her are still arguing about a previous argument they had and she doesn't want another one on top of it. I said ok. So then I say, you know, I'm half tempted to show up Wednesday despite your mom. I knew this would get the truth out. So W says she doesn't want to deal with either of our crap and then looks at me and tells me she didn't invite me anyways. Ahhh. Finally the truth from her own lips. All this time for these events and she had been telling me her mom was fully behind it. And her mom is against me. But I just wanted to hear if W was also part of it or just playing her mom up on it. Ok. So now I definitely know from her own lips.

I hope one day you figure out why you like to torture yourself so much. You know darn good and well there is strife between your MIL and your W and you know darn good and well you are part of it. You also know darn good and well that your W only wants to co-parent with you but you kept pushing anyhow. Here is a newsflash for you.... WAS LIE. They will say whatever they need to say to make things comfortable for them. If your W wanted to share what you pushed her to share tonight dont you think she would have a long time ago? Why dont you focus on YOUR family (your dad, brother) and stop worrying about hers?

Oh well... so I get the kids and we head home. Yes, I know what you all are going to say. I already knew and shouldn't have pursued it. But I really wanted to hear it straight from her mouth.

Why? What did hearing it from her lips accomplish? Did it bring you closer to your goals of showing her that you can give her space on the issues with her family or did it show her that you will continue to pester and prod her?

I feel like I am just about at my wits end with this M. I don't know why she let it get dismissed. And I feel like I just want to tell her to snap out of this fantasy world she is living in and wake up and realize that she has a marriage and family that matters. But until she snaps out of this fantasy world, it just won't make a difference.

Well, you are at your wits end because right now you dont have a M but you like to pretend that you do. Once you accept that right now you dont have a M you wont feel at your wits end. And good luck telling your W to snap out of it. I can assure you the response you will get will not be one that you will like one bit.


For now, I am nobody. I'm a face in the crowd. I'm somebody to some and nobody to others. I have 2 daughters that argue constantly now. I have a mind that can't unwrap itself from my W. I have an apartment and an 11 year old camry with a dent in the bumper that is paid for and I have a job that I go to from 8:30 to 4:30. I have people that know me as Kevin. But Kevin himself is just here. Kevin's identity is a mystery. What is Kevin passionate about? Kevin used to be passionate about football and soccer as far as watching it goes. Maybe I could join a flag football team. That could be fun to do. Those are short seasons though. Then what do I do the rest of the year?

Only you can change that feeling of being a nobody. Trust me, I get it because I felt like the biggest pile of crap for close to a year and the anxiety built up in me so much I became afraid to leave my own house. I dont recommend you follow in my footsteps.

If your kids argue constantly then you need to find the root issue which I think has much to do with the separation and the new living situation. Why arent your kids in counseling? They are young and need guidance and support that might be best delivered by a professional along with a strong set of co-parents.

It just seems to me that you define yourself by your job, car or R. Those are outside things.

I see what you all are saying about poker not really doing anything for you because as soon as I come home I am stuck back in that same rut again. BTW, the poker was free to play. I don't be rent money and I am trying to save money which also limits things I do.

The only thing that limits what you do is your imagination. Once again, I posted about 5 resources (free magazines, websites and blogs) of free things to do in the Dallas area. Use your darn imagination. Fun, creativity and adventure doesnt have to cost money and it will get you thinking outside of the box you have trapped yourself in. And when you start thinking a different way then you start become a different person. You become stronger, confident and certainly more interesting and not interesting for your W but interesting for YOU.

As far as your other comments - if you think all psych's do is listen to problems with their own screwed up lives lingering in the background then you are nuts. As I have said before my psych demands ALL his patients particpate in a four part healing process - meds, counseling, emotional support and spiritual support. His insight, compassion and wisdom along with his medical expertise just might have saved my life. My psych could give a rats ass about my H and he has gotten me on that path. Its all about ME ME ME and once you get that through your head your life *will* change. How it will change is up to you but it will change in some capacity.

[25yearsmlc]

Not that this matters, but since you brought up delusions...

A psychiatrist is an MD and first, has to have 4 years of college in which they must major in a pre-med subject, including topics such as organic chemistry which many people do not pass. If their grades AND TEST SCORES are good enough, then they get into medical school which is 4 more years - with 40 hours of classroom work per week + clinic hours AND homework...then if they pass all that, they must pass their boards (which are both oral and written). If they pass those boards -and before they can touch a patient of any kind on their own, they must do an internship, and that is a year of 80-90 hour weeks in hospital, PLUS studying for coming cases, doing rounds, and if they get thru all of that, then they apply for a residency which is what their speciality is in and sometimes they have to wait up to 3 years to attend those if it's a high demand residency and in the meantime they'll do scut work at a hospital or go somewhere to do GP work, while waiting until they get their residency, and IF they do get their residency OR some residency (and hope that it's one they like and enjoy doing and are physically capable of since eyesight matters more in some, as does dexterity and an accident can ruin your field though your mind is fine) but that is 2 to 6 years of say, surgery or internal medicine and if they want to further specialize within those areas, they must do a fellowship or extra years of their residency. That makes for an extra 13 years of schooling BEYOND high school, for most physicians. So tell a High School graduate with good grades to "start ALL over" only now you'll be older, and work longer hours, and each year was progressively harder and the hours were longer... Did I mention that while these folks are medical students with college degrees, they earn NOTHING, but they can borrow 6 figures? As interns and residents, (With college degrees AND medical degrees) they earn about a starting teacher's salary...and still owe the 6 figures for their med school...

A psychologist like my niece finishes 4 years of college. Then she got into an excellent graduate program and moved to UNC where she completed 2 1/2 years of further study AND wrote a lengthy dissertation for her Master's, and is now in a 3-4 year PhD program that takes enormous amounts of research and work AND pays very little until if and when she completes the PhD and then she'll earn an academic salary...Kev, I have no idea why you chose to insult the C or other professionals with educations...

Give your c guy a chance Kev. What you went thru is called "intake" and is normal and it's par for the course. Have you never gone to any c before now? When you say things like you'll "play along"..or "go along", I'm saddened and irritated. Do you think you are doing US a favor by getting some c?

Being your c would be very hard b/c really, you want him to tell you what to do, and what your w is doing/thinking, and to predict the future. And he can't do that. No one can. Give the c a chance.

And as for the put downs of educated people...hey, No one told you not to go to school. No one held a gun to your head and said "don't graduate". You said yourself you got complacent...but you seem to resent this guy.

You can go back to school if you want Kevin. No one is stopping you, and you have a lot of free time it sounds like. Take a class in something you LOVE or MIGHT LOVE, and see where it goes. I'm taking a class in the fall & It's one night a week. I also am in a "current events' group that meets weekly and it keeps me informed, and people with different viewpoints discuss their opinions and no one gets angry, and we all learn a lot. Interesting people attend those and I've made some good friends. Maybe you'd find some of these ideas appealing. I Don't know. Nothing wrong with poker as a pasttime but it is a card game Kev. I think people are concerned that you are not understanding what we mean with GAL...maybe the c can help you with that too.

As for you "diagnosing" your wife with delusions...wow Kev. I think the word "projection" is what is coming to my mind. And "transference" maybe.
I see in you, what you are saying about her. Give the guy a chance and if you think after 6 or 7 meetings that you want an older guy, so be it. But this one is free?

Don't put him down for being young either. He'll probably be much more patient and may be much less burned out than someone who has been doing this for a long time.

(( j ))

[25yearsmlc]

Kev,

What's going on with you? Are you...feeling alright? I
Just visited the site you wanted us to see. It refers to the nature of "Sinning" and delusions and addictions, etc. The parts about rationalization, (how you do it every time you repeat the same mistakes again and again) projection (seeing your flaws in her), altered memory,("I was never happy until I met her... she completed me, and I got complacent...") repression, (No discussion of your mother or her recent death) self delusion, ("we were happy" "How can I get my w back FAST"? "This dismissal is a sign so I will invite her to dinner tonight") addiction (um, aren't you the "functioning alcoholic" who admits he "drank too much"??) so....I'm really really curious...

did you go to the site b/c you learned about yourself there? (In which case I'm very impressed)...but you said something about you wanting her to "snap out of it' and I realized in horror, you are talking about HER, and NOT YOU! . That's incredible. And yes, it is delusional of you. Unbelievable with your history...

As for wishing someone would "SNAP OUT OF IT", Kevin, that's me wishing it for you. You're kind of scaring me now.
As for the mil and the rest of your w's family and why you insist on inserting yourself into the problems.. As someone else said, go deal with your own family. Be a good son and a good brother before you cast stones at your w's family. Your family was evidently not involved in your childrens' lives, so I don't know what that means but really, don't throw stones when you may live in a glass house. Be there for your kids, show up for THEM...go to your c. GAL, DB 101 and (Sigh) re-read the posts we all write to you b/c I'm tired of doing this now...man, that site really did it for me. You have officially freaked me out with the biggest gap in self awareness...Zero insight...

j-

[MrBond]

Kevin,

After reading 25's post above, I checked the website you posted myself. She is totally right. What is the matter with you?

You are becoming extremely obsessive with your W to the point that now you're blaming her for all the problems you are going through. I read through your post and not only was it sarcastic in the way you put down the C who is helping you, but it was the same, look how my life just sucks.

I can also hear the mood changing from being accepting to getting angry and you putting thoughts in your head of what you want to hear. You even went back to complaining about your daughters.

You want to know what God thinks? God wants you to treat others as you would like them to treat you. Jesus died for your sins even though the whole world ridiculed and condemned him. So stop putting on this 'oh woe is me' attitude on and acting holier than thou when it comes to your W. Love and forgive yourself and her and move on.

[25yearsmlc]

K4,

one other tiny little minute small matter...

You referred to yourself, or to him, as a "Divorce case." That barely touches the surface and if you think that the divorce is the main problem you have, you cannot see the forest for the trees. Your divorce is the result of your problems...not the cause of them. I really mean that. Think hard on that one. See what others think.

When I re=read lots of your posts and views and mood swings and such... I feel It's a symptom, or just the culmination of many OTHER INTERNAL things...But your smug tone describing your c "The kid" was the tone of someone resisting it already. I can tell you'll probably get NOTHING out of it and that will prove....what? That you are hopeless?
That ONLY W can save you...that life is over? Geez she has all the power you give her...it's like she gets to decide if the biopsy is cancerous or not b/c you don't want the "young kid doctor to fix it...". What are you afraid of? OH, he'll want you to change and that COULD mean NOT holding on to your w. I bet he even said someting to the effect that you MIGHT have to learn to be happy without her...OH NO!! Kevin that is why we all wanted you to go see someone. Of course you need that skill..

HONEST QUESTION COMING AND PLEASE GIVE AN HONEST ANSWER AND DON'T IGNORE IT...if you need time, fine. But don't BS please...

Do you want to learn how to be happy without your wife, in case she doesn't come back?

Do you think if you learn to be happy without her, that SOMEHOW that will cause her not return to you?

IOW, what fear do you have of learning about being happy without her b/c I sense so much resistance to this. Why? What are you afraid you will find in c? No one thinks you are a monster way down deep. So what's the harm of looking and fixing the stuff inside? Can you name the fear?

I wish you were half as hungry for THIS C guys' attention, or had half the clinging interest in his input, as you do for the woman divorcing you... it could change your life.

see ya later Kev
j-

[CityGirl]

Listen - please go read my latest post in my thread. Do you want that to happen to you? Having lived through anxiety that was so intense that it eventually manifested into a clinical panic disorder (that certainly has not gone away but has improved with lots of hard work and dedication) I can promise you its not the route you want to take.

Yes, I understand our situations are different and my anxiety wasnt solely based on my H and his actions. And no, I dont have children so I can pretend to understand that element. But what I can relate to is feeling like such hell you wonder why you should get out of bed each day.

Now, anger in a D has its place because it can help push you to the next phase but it seems that you are stuck again. And how many times do you want to be stuck? Dont you want your personal freedom back?

Let me be blunt - why is your W so great in your mind? She wants to divorce you, she is dating/sleeping with other men, she wont give you the time of day unless she needs something, she tries to end almost all conversations you and her have and she doesnt even want you in the house unless she can monitor what you are doing. She didnt even trust you enough or have enough respect for you to choose your own apartment and she gave you all the crap furniture once she did "approve" the apartment you chose.

Now, if some stranger told you all that about their spouse what would you think? Would you think they are a good spouse? I doubt it. But you allow your vows to cloud what is really happening here. Yes, we all took vows wearing fancy white dresses and lovely suits. And yes, they were supposed to be for life. But is this the life you want?

When you realize you are NOT a second class citizen then you will stop allowing your W to treat you as one. When you get tired enough of getting kicked around and treated like crap then you will change what you need to change.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Or as I like to say, "Your wife will begin to respect you when you begin to respect YOURSELF -- and no sooner."

Puppy

[K4D]

I guess my initial fear was what real world experience does this guy have that he could help me? I guess I didn't think about fresh new ideas.

I do need to learn how to be happy without my W. That is a must.

I don't know if she will return to me or not if I am happy without her.

I think I was just a little skeptical is all.

I will give it an honest try with the C.

I did read that being a psychiatrist you can make I think between 167k to 247k a year. I thought that sounded pretty decent.

I was not griping about my kids. I am concerned about them. Especially D7 seems to be having a lot of emotional outbursts lately. I'm quite sure it has to do with the separation and knowing about the D. Their world has been turned upside down. The rug has been pulled out from beneath them and they had no say in the matter. They probably don't know what to expect next.

I'm just concerned.

And the whole self delusion thing I found interestimg because of the A process. I no longer delude myself about the drinking. I have cleaned that up.

Kevin

[Steve McQueen]

I'm thinking what a great evening it was. And it really was. Well, of course, W tells me she has a "friend" coming back from Santa Fe that is taking her out for her birthday dinner and she is booked all week. Right away I know who this friend is. Its original OM. She slept with him for his birthday and I'm pretty sure he is returning the favor.

She told you she was going to get laid on her birthday, and you are still talking about her. GET SOME SELF RESPECT.

SteveM
"I had a wife. Sawed her in half. Some people cried most of them just laughed."

[25yearsmlc]

I guess my initial fear was what real world experience does this guy have that he could help me? I guess I didn't think about fresh new ideas.

Well not many of us have had your experience either. Or maybe we had a week or two of it before we stopped it from continuing on. That's where the self respect part comes in.

I do need to learn how to be happy without my W. That is a must.

I don't know if she will return to me or not if I am happy without her.

Are you saying that if you become happy, then b/c of that, she might not return to you? IF anything is going to get your w back, it surely would include you becoming happy without her and not needing her the way you think you do. Of that, I'm positive.


I think I was just a little skeptical is all.

I will give it an honest try with the C.

I did read that being a psychiatrist you can make I think between 167k to 247k a year. I thought that sounded pretty decent.

Did you actually read what I wrote to you about becoming a medical doctor, with the college, medical school, internship and residency training (which ALL specialists must have) and factor in the hours they work, and the years they work with little or NO pay, to come up with that "pretty decent" salary? Are you actually just blurting that out b/c you think making more money is the "Secret" to getting your wife back? Well I'm married to a physician and got to witness the entire process, start to finish. I am not bitter about his work b/c I have always believed in what he does, he's very good at it, he relieves people's suffering, and has saved lives in and out of the military. etc. But you are living in another world to have skipped over what I posted to you about the field of medicine. MD's finish their training and finally start to earn the "big bucks" when they turn about -- your age now. And they endure high pressure in some specialties that can be quite stressful and unrelenting, and as humans, they will make mistakes that can hurt their patients. God knows when that happens, it hurts them too. Not just professionally, though that too. And it hurts the doctor's families. As a L, I had a close friend/client doctor who made a 90 second mistake which may have contributed to a patient's death. I was the counsel for the hospital and paid the case. The doctor was raked over the coals professionally with the lawsuit. He and his w were in such grief about the loss of life, let alone the rest, they went to MC and the Dr continued on in private ind c for years, b/c of his wrenching sense of guilt and responsibility. He was just never ever the same. He lost a fortune too. I think they divorced a few years later. I wrote an article about it, and if you knew how "small" the mistake was, with such HUGE damage resulting from it, you'd understand more about how demanding the field is. It's a big responsibility. It's also very tough on marriages. God Kevin, you just throw things out there with no concept of what you are discussing...think more before you make those statements okay? BUT Let me sum up with something that might help you with your own sitch. Whether you want to become a professional anything, doctor, lawyer, accountant, Olympic athlete, etc they all have ONE thing in common to reach their goal. That's the ability to delay gratification. Meaning they are are able to work hard on something without an immediate pay off. Have you ever done that? Can you start with something like "delaying gratification" here? It's a key life skill you need.


I was not griping about my kids. I am concerned about them. Especially D7 seems to be having a lot of emotional outbursts lately. I'm quite sure it has to do with the separation and knowing about the D. Their world has been turned upside down. The rug has been pulled out from beneath them and they had no say in the matter. They probably don't know what to expect next.

I'm just concerned.
Makes sense. Good. But oh btw, you left the state and your d's for awhile. Before that, you had the other "stuff" while living in the home with the booze and zoning out... all parents should be concerned and especially about this type of event in their children's lives. But somehow I had the feeling this was more about blaming your w...

And the whole self delusion thing I found interestimg because of the A process. I no longer delude myself about the drinking. I have cleaned that up.

Yes. We know you exclusively focused on the A issue b/c the rest of the site deals with problems you have. You only focused on your w's. That's our point.

And As for "cleaning that up" you mean, you have no problems now b/c you stopped drinking? Ever wonder why you drank, especially since you drank before and during the m? Could that have been self medicating for your depression?


Kevin

Kev, Don't wait for happiness to work it's way to you let alone resist it along the way. We create our own happiness. Do you believe that? I hope you do b/c if you don't, you're doomed. We do create our own happiness. Not saying bad things don't happen along the way; they do. Remember Carol, that woman I told you about who was so centered spiritually and content within? She had lost her older brother, who died on her 16th b-day trying to drive to get home for her "sweet 16" party. Her 5 y/o son has bad juveniile diabetes that's tough to manage, and she lost her CHILD, her only daughter, to a sudden and rare lung infection. Go read that post again sometime Kevin. Carol is still among the kindest most inwardly content people I have ever known. Thanks to her, I attended that workshop and changed MY life and got some tools I badly needed.

We are not all born with the tools we need. And we all know people who've had some lucky breaks. And we all know that life throws some people more curve balls, not of their own making, Like my friend Carol. But Carol is happy Kevin. She really is. How can that be? B/C it is not the external world or events that decides whether she'll be happy or not, in the long run. It's our internal world and heart and soul. I hope some of this reaches you.
j-

PS

As far as the c, You may not have that guy as your c anyhow. If he was only doing your intake. They'll all meet later to assess their patient loads and see who seems best qualified to handle your type of sitch. He may be your c, or someone else could be. Either way, please give it a chance. Same goes for all the advice you get here Kev.

j-