Hi Drew, I meant to get back quicker but have not felt well the past few days. I have an illness that gets me down at times, so don't think I'm ignoring you if you don't hear back right away.
I don't have a good feeling about the twins. It sounds as if they are degressing back into a isolated state of just the two of them and closing out the real world and especially anything unpleasandt they don't want to deal with .....like going to see SIL H's headstone. That is not normal from where I come from, but then I have had to deal with deaths in the family. If they have never had to deal with a close death, them maybe it scares them to much. It does seem SIL would want to go to see her H's grave. In most cases that I'm familiar with, that is what the S wants to do most.....is go to the cemetary.
It's late here and I can't write much tonight, I am very concerned about this and wish the parents would step in to get the girls to go to professional help.
Stay in touch.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It's totally understandable and I hope you feel well soon!
I am realizing that what you are saying is exactly where the situation seems to be heading. As for their parents and brother I do know they aren't doing much talking about the deceased BIL if at all. I am not sure if you got this from the posts but the BIL's death was a suicide. My SIL found him in the state he was in and I do know she called the authorities who tried to walk her through CPR though it was very much too late at that point as the way my BIL did this was no doubt instantly fatal. Anyway, I figure the post traumatic stress my SIL is feeling is probably beyond my comprehension. Same goes for my W. My W and SIL's parents are still quite young so I doubt they have experienced a a friends or family death quite like this.
I mentioned that my SIL was kind of seeing a friend? That ended yesterday when he decided to call it off (wondering why he only spent time with her once every 2 weeks or so). The SIL explained to him she was not over her H and it didn't look like she would ever be. So one of the few contacts she had that didn't have much to do with her H situation or know him was cut out.
As for me being cut out it is very confusing. I will see if my counselor has insight. I get the impression that my W is apprehensive about filing for D so I wonder where this might go? Anyway, I have decided to deal with my own feelings about the BIL myself. I went to see the headstone a couple of days ago and at the very least it helped put some things in perspective.
Well I am glad I have the knowledge that I do about DR, DB coaching, and the insight of these forums. If anything it will help keep me going.
Well.. I just got an email from my wife and she basically flat out told me she wished I would express my feelings to her more. I sent her an email first responding to a text of when I would get the rest of my stuff.. She is talking about our last conversation together btw. It was our first real convo since separation and I wanted to just catch up. to help get us to the point of talking about feelings
here's her email: Sux about working so much, but you'll appreciate the check..Sunday will be ok. We won't be here, though. I guess we can talk soon, but I didn't understand the point..I mean it's ok to catch up, but I don't understand you. I feel like we are just sitting there forcing conversation. If you need to discuss something, or express your feelings, I wish you would. I don't mean to be cold, but I don't know how else to handle this. Hope you had a good hike and good doctor's visit, your W
So I 180'ed and I hope it's a good one. I expressed my feelings about what transpired over the last few months, our living sitch, and SIL H death.. I know I shouldn't initiate much talk about R or feelings but it looks like she wants me to.. so I replied..
Hey there,
I do understand what you are saying about conversation. It has been very difficult for me to communicate over the last few months. Anyway, you know what sucks? I had a huge email written up about this and somehow I deleted the whole thing. I will try to re-write it to the best of my memory. Since about February or so I felt like we were growing apart and you and your twin S getting closer. I just took that as you needing to really be there for her after the tragedy. I remember me and you talking about BIL, the new living situation, and the fact that she lost her love and you had someone and you felt bad about it sometime in January and you were afraid about the new living situation. You said that we were doing just fine living on xxxxxx Ave and that really struck a chord with me. Anyway, I do believe communication started breaking down after this because it was such an uncomfortable thing to be talking about this tragedy and feeling uprooted. I really wish I had tried to address it as my relationship with you is very important to me. By this time you were getting more aloof with me and growing closer to your twin S and I really resented it. I wanted to be strong for you and SIL and just took it. W, I want you to know I was angry about it but instead of confronting you, I instead acted evasive, defensive, moody, and untalkative. I glossed over these feelings I felt instead of expressing them and that was wrong. I guess I really was internalizing a lot of things after this tragedy. It really was very difficult watching you and twin S get closer while I was feeling more shut out and like a third wheel. I want you to know though I would never do anything to get in the way of you and twin S and have a lot of respect for the loyalty you have for each other.
I do know I have communication issues. I know it is frustrating when I seem to lose track and focus when we are conversing. I also want you to know that I always eagerly listened to you with compassion to the very best of my abilities. I value our conversations, everything you have to say, and enjoy the topics.
I want you to know that this tragedy is really not something a newly wed couple should have had to go through. It just seems so unfair. Of course I know the person it really is unfair to is your twin S.
I want you to know that if there is anyone in the world I would want to discuss my feelings with it would be you. Everything just got so difficult over the last few months. I understand that you are feeling cold right now. I just want you to know that whenever you want to talk to me I will be there.
I'm so glad you shared that letter with us. It is hard for many men to do that. I did not know the details about your BIL's death. I appreciate you explaining it. I did wonder about your SIL's "friend". Do you think she ever saw him or had any emotional connection with him before her H died? That sounds like a hit below the belt but after being on this board for a while, you just can't help but wonder about those things. I feel that your SIL is experiencing a lot of guilt associated with her H's death. For one thing, I believe it is normal for the S and parents to feel guilt over a suicide. We always wonder if we could have prevented it. Then with your SIL trying to administer CPR when it was obviously too late.....that alone is very tramatic. I can only assoicate the experience I had with my father when he died and I was about to try applying CPR when the ambulance arrived. I was shaking so badly that I don't know if I could have done it....plus I was scared of doing something the wrong way. It must be so horrible to walk in and find a loved one who has taken their own life. She had to be in so much shock....I'm surprised she could function enough to follow 911's instructions. Although, we find we can do more than we think we it is an emergency.
I don't find fault with you seeing an IC at all, but I really feel that the twins need to see a professional......especially the SIL. Everyone handles death in their own way, but this is not a healthy sign from your wife. She should not feel guilt to the point of sacrificing her own M and happiness to grieve and live in a state of mourning with her sister. If her sister is already trying to see somebody else.....even if she decided she's not ready.....that tells me that she would not do the same for your wife if the situation was turned around. In other words, I don't think your SIL would give up her M and happiness to go live with your wife if she was the one in mourning. That is why your wife needs professional help b/c she should not act on guilt feelings or compassion for her sister to this degree.
If you feel that she is wanting or needing you to talk about the stitch to her, then she must be having confused emotions about things now. Maybe if she has enough time to see her twin moving on with "her" life, then your W will come to realize that she gave up her R with you for nothing. The parents are obviously grieved for their daughter and the entire experience, but I am thinking that they must not know how to deal with "twins" in a healthy way or they would be telling those girls that they need to seperate and learn to act as individuals and not try to act and feel as though they are "one". That is why I wondered if the parents had raised them to feel that way. Some parents of twins think of their children being "one" instead of two people, which of course is wrong to do that.
I'm not sure what your 180's should be. I do believe that your W needs communication with you. Where as in more common stories the LBS is told to keep their distance, etc., I am not sure that this is what she needs. You see, the more she is away from you and ingulfed in her sister and that situation.....the more she will grow away from you. This is opposite from the advice that we usually give, but this is an unusual case. If you have had trouble in sharing your feelings in the past, then giving her that letter was a good move. I think she needs a lot of positive feedback from you about the future. You will have to be careful about any negative remarks about her twin b/c she will feel it her obligation to defend her. If she has a need to discuss the BIL, then maybe that is okay to do with you, but I would think the most important issue is the MR between the two of you. It is sad what happen, but that should not be the determining factor of your M with each other. It just makes no sense to me, but then that is why I believe it all goes back to the unique relationship between the twins. This tragidy pulled out something from them that maybe has been laying dormat or they had overcome after they grew up.......I don't know. It would take a professional to explain what is going on with them.
Do you think the twins are seeing other friends outside the family? I mean, do they GAL at all? Are they working, etc.? Sorry if you have told all this and I just can't recall everything at the moment. If they are active in these areas and your W is excluding only you.......that is confusing, isn't it? Again, I think she has displayed guilt.......or some fancy term for it. I know you would have to be very careful about expressing your concern and suggesting she see a counselor, but I wish somebody could get through to her. First things first for you, however.
My advice is to take things slowly and don't make drastic moves based on what you have read other DBers doing b/c yours is the exception, okay? I may stand alone on this thought, but so be it. I would not advise you to leave her totally alone and not try to make contact. I do advise you to take it slowly, but do try to share your feelings with her. Don't take a back seat and just hand her over to that situation without trying to reach out to her. It is a delicate time and apparently she is not in a healthy frame of mind b/c she is not thinking what we would say is "normal" for most. You will have to think carefully before you speak or write to her. I'm sure she must feel sensitive and defensive, but only you will be able to decide that. Perhaps each time you do write her, you can reveal a bit more and slowly gain her confidence. Hopefully, you can help her to deal with her negative emotions and see how the two of you should not call an end to your M based on the death of the BIL.
Well, I feel I have basically said the same thing over again, so I will stop for now. Hope things will start to show a huge improvement soon.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well it looks like my W was concerned that I hadn't been expressing my feelings. I guess that means she does care. Her email sounds like she is confused. ie.. what is the point of talking.. then saying I wish you would communicate your feelings.. then saying I don't mean to be cold but I feel like I have no choice. So that is my big 180 there to actually express my feelings when I get the chance to talk to her.
I think you are right about something coming up that brought the twins back into a blending state. Like I said they did develop separate identities in college and while the SIL was dating her H. But now I remember some pics that my W shows me where they looked as kids with exactly the same clothes, hairstyle, etc.
Anyway, I agree I don't need to go dark but maybe communicate with my wife in different mediums (email instead of texts, etc.) AS for LRT's I am not sure. Obviously one of them is giving space and not actively pursuing. I have a session with a DB coach soon so maybe I can ask her.
They haven't done any GAL over anything they already did. Their days/nights pretty much are work, errands, go to parents on Sunday twice a month, and outdoor activity after work, wife works out for a while after outdoor activity, then they get on internet play on facebook (to mainly correspond with old college friends or family) or online scrabble while tv is on. They may play some xbox games or do baking or cooking (mainly W.. I got her into that) during the weekend to change things up a little. My W is an artist too but it seems like her output is varied as it always has been. Since our separation they had friends over once. The last time they had friends over before that were out of town friends during the holidays to meet me. Anyway, on the more recent time they had friends over The SIL stayed up very late with them and my W went to bed earlier. My SIL and I had a convo about that recently. It looks like they had fun but I am sure that any activity like that will continue to be few and far between. The only other person that came over was my friend every two weeks our so to see SIL but now that apparently has ended. Incidently that friend didn't really meet SIL until after BIL's death. They started talking about 2 months ago.
Anyway, thank you for your input. I haven't gotten much output from other ppl on here I guess since it is such a different situation. Would anyone on here that has a W with a twin whose H committed suicide raise their hand? Yah I didn't think so.. heheh..
I am glad I am seeing an IC too. It is probably imperative with my ADHD and communication issues. Not only that over the last few weeks I have been feeling more PTSD type symptoms over BIL. I am remembering what transpired on that day between SIL's H mother and dad (divorced) arguing and blaming each other while we were all watching in shock and horror. The mother blamed the dad and was laying blame on BIL's brother too while the police were trying to calm her down. It was heart breaking to watch. I am also picturing what the aftermath of his suicide looked like and what my SIL walked into and her reaction. If I am having these symptoms I can only imagine what my W feels. I did have these symptoms a lot just after and they subsided. They are happening again perhaps from the stress of separation, perhaps because it around the halfway mark til Nov when it happened, or perhaps I am wondering just how much this has to do with the way my W is treating me. I don't know I will bring it up to my IC when I see him next.
I am so glad you are talking to a DB coach b/c of your stitch being unique. I've heard they are very good!
My sister and I were not close in age, but when she was going though a lot of her trouble teen years and then later going through a toubled M......I had her come stay with us and I devoted all my spare time and energy into "her". It embarrases me now to remember how I practically ignored my own children in order to meet her attention needs. I let my H's needs go so I could spend all my time with her. She was the type that would just soak up all the energy and attention that was given her. I wished my H would have pointed out to me what I was doing to him and the kids, but he never said a word. I suppose the point I'm making is that she was not my twin and yet I become too emotionally involved in her life and thought I could fix what was broken for her. Of course, I couldn't and I was not mature enough to know that. I thought I could "counsel" her and show her support and try to give her some of my stength......but it did not work. I got very upset with her b/c she would not do what I thought she should. Finally, our dad pointed out to me that in my own way, I was trying to control her life. I was shocked beyond belief! I only wanted to "help" her and keep her from hurting and from making terrible mistakes in life. Guess what? It didn't work. All my long talks and "support" of her did nothing to change the decisions she made. I felt all that time had been wasted. So, finally I was able to turn lose and give my attention where it was truly needed, which was my H and children. I had to learn that whatever happen to her.....I could not prevent. I could not protect her b/c she was an adult and had to live her own life and go through her own problems and pain. It was tough!!
So, the same with your W, I think. Especially with twins, they want to share, protect, prevent hurt.....all of it. Your W feels she must be there is why she said she "has no choice". Maybe her twin has caused her to feel even more pressured to stay. It is all codependent and not healthy. I hope that the DB coach will have advice for you. Maybe he/she won't know what to do about the twins.....b/c there isn't a lot you can do about them, just as I couldn't do for my sister. However, you can find out what to do about the MR and how to respond to your W.
I'm still here whether anybody else is or not! Have you gone to other people's threads and posted to them? That helps to build up a support system.
Talk to you later.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well it's six days until my first wedding anniversary. Only 2 or 3 short months ago I never thought I would be separated from my W during this time.
Another reason she could be so torn about the BIL is the kind of art he did. He was into tattooing and did a lot of work on her. So she will permanently have his art stitched into her skin. Maybe she feels bad that that connection she had with her BIL was permanently ripped away.
Speaking of which she showed some of her tattoo work done on her online on a blog. I figure if she didn't want me to see it or say anything she could have hid me in her settings. I decided to say that it looked good and very subtly let her know that she looked hot. Those comments weren't deleted nor was I chastised so I figure she still appreciates the attention from me. I worded them in such a way where it could only be taken as complimentary and without expectation. During happier times she loved it when I told her how beautiful she was or when it didn't seem like I could keep my hands off her. She really enjoyed being nurtured in that way and would tell me so. I figure she might still appreciate that in a more subtle manner (yes I am going to keep my hands off). Hey I figure if she wants to know my feelings for her I can still hint that I think she's attractive.
Anyway I am glad I have a coaching session tomorrow..
I got a reply for my email from my W. Wow, I really hope that don't believe any of what is said and half of what you see can apply here..
Hey, I understand everything you are saying, and it is true that I chose twin S over you..but, she is not the reason for our separation. The fact is, I wasn't doing fine at previous address (before twins H suicide). I haven't been fine for a long time. Yes, it is frustrating to me to have communcation problems, and it looks like your counselor is helping you articulate your feelings, that's good. You don't need to let people treat you badly, as I have. Twin S and I have been close for over 32 years. I don't think you (or friend that saw twin S for a little while) understand that. You have only known me for 2 years. We may go through spells of not talking or seeing each other so much, but we have a strange relationship that cannot be messed with. And just because people tell us to stop being so dependant upon each other, doesn't mean that we will put any stock into that opinion. However, we are 2 individual people with very strong heads, who like to have their own way. I promise you, if we weren't happy doing what we are doing we wouldn't be doing it. But I do understand your resentment. I would be shocked if you said you didn't. I'm very sorry for that. You sure didn't deserve to be treated as badly as I treated you. I don't like being a bad person. It makes me feel like I'm decaying inside. I took too long to accept how I really felt about our marriage because I didn't like the answer. But I can't live the rest of my life pretending. We should've gotten to know each other better, and that's my fault. I'm sooo sorry for screwing up so bad. I know you can't help the way you are, and I don't condemn you for it. However, it doesn't change the fact that we aren't well suited for each other. It doesn't have to be that we have short-comings, everyone does. We just aren't on the same wave-length. Anyway, I really hope that you are doing well and that your job is going good. Hope you have a good day off. I gotta get ready for work, I'll talk to you soon.
I still say that that situation between the twins IS NOT NORMAL. To choose your sister over your own husband??? I don't care if they were joined at the hips, you don't love your sibling more than your spouse. If she had left you at any other time except at the time all this stuff with the BIL happened, then I might think she knew what she was talking about. But mainly, if she had NOT moved in with her twin sister.....THEN I would sit up and listen. But no way is this rational. Of course she can't see it. Of course she thinks nobody understands their "closeness". When a person is in an unhealthy R like she is with her twin, they can't see the reality of the situation.
I remember seeing several documentaries on twins. It always interested me b/c I do think they are unique in many ways. However, I have seen true "stories" on TV about twins binding in an unhealthy union that they would exclude one by one until nobody exsisted except them. They never saw it, but everyone around them would see it and try to tell the twins......but until some expert could intervine someway and almost "force" the twins to live independently......they would not listen.
The problem here is the fact these twins are adults and nobody can actually force them apart if they don't want to be. It is so sad for you b/c I don't see your W changing her mind anytime soon (if ever) as long as she is controlled or influenced by her twin or whatever it is that is making her think in these terms that she is expressing. I don't know what to tell you b/c frankly I am stumped! If she refuses help, then all I see that you can do is either wait for a long, long time to see if some other disaster happens that may cause a drastic change to take place in their lives......or else move on with your own life and try to put this in the past.
Now, I want to say something else and maybe I will sound harsh and nonunderstanding. I don't mean to b/c I come from a very close family on my side and my in-laws. Is it my imagination or what, but it seems that the closeness that your W and even you felt toward the BIL and the events surrounding his death.....well, it just seems so extreme. That didn't come out the way I meant. I love my BIL to death, but I don't see me and my S being affected in the way I see this family. I don't know how to express what I'm trying to say here, really. I just don't get why your W has changed her entire "life" b/c her BIL comitted suicide. I don't mean that to sound curel. It seems to me that even you sound almost "too" emotionally involved with BIL. Is it the effects of everything that happened or was it always that way even before his death? I'm just trying to understand. Please don't be offended b/c I don't mean to do that and I can't seem to put it into words what I want to say. It all sounds so sad and I am so sorry that you find yourself in this tragic family without knowing what to do about it. I hope that your C can help guide you.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
well i have had one other friend commit suicide before. I did establish a quick close bond with my BIL but I think mainly it is how I saw his family react and how my SIL reacted on that day. I was very much there and involved at the scene being questioned and being one of the main people to pick up the pieces in the place it happened. Moving my SIL out. Being there when she found the note (a few days later). A lot of it has to do with the surreality of the situation and my very analytical mind recreating what my SIL saw and how it all transpired. Then seeing how my W reacted of course I was affected even more. I showed unconditional love and took my SIL in without even thinking it could have consequences like this. Now i believe I was getting over it faster than them and then my W pulls this on me and I can't help but recreate everything again with this sitch. So now I am more affected than I probably should be. I will get through it I am sure but now I feel like I have to lose who I think is my soulmate just to be somewhat ok again. I've read about suicide and it affects families to an extent that very few tragedies can even touch. I might be better off actually if my W and I don't work this out. If we do well that means she worked through it and great. My counselor and another friend who was affected by a suicide says that if the affected ppl don't get counseling or the right kind of support their worlds crash in a very bad way. I suspect it is only a matter of time for them and I hate to say that.
Anyway, I will be ok. I have enough good things on my platter to not get through this..
