I wanted to move this conversation here, so as not to further hijack Eternal Optimist's thread, but we've been having a spirited back-and-forth about whether or not exposure of an affair is ever a valid technique, or is it simply trying to "shame" a wayward spouse into returning to the marriage?
For a link to the discussion, see the last few pages of EO's thread, here:
As most of you know, I am generally "pro-exposure," for a lot of reasons, but the main ones would be:
1. Affairs thrive on secrecy, and when you expose them to the light of day, they often end very quickly.
2. The longer an affair continues, the greater the emotional damage to the betrayed spouse.
3. The longer the affair continues, the greater the emotional damage to the family.
4. The longer the affair continues, the greater financial drain on the family's resources.
5. The longer the affair continues, the greater the medical risk to the wayward spouse (and, if they are still ML, therefore also the betrayed spouse).
I also just tend to be a "I'd rather err on the side of DOING SOMETHING" kinda guy, and have never been fond of what I call the "Little Bo-Peep" approach; you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them." Yes, many affairs do die a natural death (most, in fact), but I just believe that this has to be weighed against the damage of the points outlined above, that continue to happen for every month that the affair continues, un-confronted.
I liken exposure to an "intervention," and I think the analogy applies. Affairs are HIGHLY addictive (if you doubt this, just Google "PEA" "brain" "chemicals" "love" sometime, and read up on it. It's what made an otherwise intelligent, sane adult female astronaut drive across country, wearing an adult diaper, so she wouldn't have to make bathroom stops while she drove to Florida to avenge her man.) Often a close circle of family and friends are in a position of influence with the wayward spouse, and their intervention can make the cheater see what they are doing. Even if it doesn't, but the aggressive exposure does end the affair, is that not for the overall good, considering the points raised above?
Simply put, I think the cheating spouse is an addict, and the sooner you can separate the addict from the source of their addiction, the better.
Now, that all being said, I fully realize that the "pro-exposure" position is in the minority, but I also think it's maybe a 40/60 or a 35/65 minority, and it's hardly a lunatic fringe position. And I don't think my position is "anti-DB," as I fully believe that one should also do 180s, GAL, and do everything else that MWD teaches about making oneself "the better option" and shining a path back toward the marriage.
However, if done properly, there should be NO "shame" or "condemnation" conveyed. It should be done in a spirit of love and forgiveness, and as a loving, concerned friend and family member, who believes that the behavior is destructive to the family (often children are involved), and needs to stop immediately.
25mlc, I'll respond to your specific points in a moment.
We will have to agree to disagree. True, exposing an affair to FAMILY AND FRIENDS (who's???) MAY hasten the demise of the A...sure that may be true.
You pass this off as being perhaps a small thing. When one spends time studying affairs, and the intense personal, emotional, financial and even medical pain they inflict, I don't think this is any small thing at all. If an affair might otherwise die its own natural death in an average of six months, but one can hasten its demise by several months by WHATEVER means, I think that has to be weighed more heavily. These forums are populated with stories of STDs, businesses run into the ground, tens of thousands of dollars put on credit cards and/or drained of bank accounts, children traumatized, etc. If any of these affairs had ended a few months earlier, because of exposure, would that not have saved an awful lot of pain??
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Or it could force them to see it as "them against us", but let's say it does end the A sooner... So what? How does it serve the restoration of the marriage? That IS important to me and to most people here.
Again, I find the "so what?" to be too dismissive, considering the topic at hand. Ending something as intensely destructive as an affair, sooner, is huge in my opinion, and I contend that it is the FIRST STEP to any potential restoration of the marriage. One cannot effectively restore a marriage -- or even engage in any meaningful marriage counseling -- so long as there is a third person in the marriage. Most MCs acknowledge this.
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If that is NOT the goal, what is? Is it about being "right" and OR making the shamed spouse "wrong", or hurting their standing in the community or family, instead of forgiving and being happily married? B/C being happily married IS the goal of most people here. Does the exposure force a spouse to go home? Maybe. But in some cases, so would a scarlet letter....
I've already said that "exposure" doesn't have to equate to "shame" -- in fact, it SHOULDN'T. And one can forgive a past (or continued) act, while still coming down forcefully against the continuation of that act. And yes, often exposure does end the affair, and bring the wayward spouse home. Does it always? No.
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My main point is If the m ends in divorce but MIGHT have gone differently if the LBSer had stepped back and not "shamed the wayward spouse" that matters and...that's my point. And I stand by it. Sometimes exposing it hurts the chances of a long term reconciliation. But as far as SHAME is concerned, I can think OF NO time that is good for anyone, especially the kids, and the idea of restoring a healthy happy M...with shame...nope, I don't think so.
I hear you, 25, I really do. And I stand by my point as well, and that is you can just as easily point to cases where marriages end in divorce and it might have gone differently if the betrayed spouse had been MORE aggressive, not less so. In fact, we've had entire threads on this very forum, where LBS after LBS stated that very regret -- that they wish that they had done MORE, and SOONER.
It's also not always even about saving the marriage (although that's certainly our primary goal here). Many LBSs, in cases of continued and flagrant infidelity, wish they had taken a stronger stand for their OWN self-esteem and emotional well-being. And that IS very much in line with what DBing is supposed to be all about: that in trying to save our marriages, we are to save ourselves, and if our spouse sees our changes and responds to them, then great, but if not then at least we are now stronger, more emotionally healthy people to bring that with us into our next relationship.
As for the "shame" part, you keep bringing up that word, not me. Exposure should never be about shame or condemnation. Asked and answered.
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No offense, but there's a stubborn need to be right here, or something going on here that is off point. I don't get it. I know it's close to home for you and I'm sorry if it hit a chord. I really am. But isn't it possible that you could be overstating something here? Or not be right about this? Would it be so terrible to not be correct and to have to try something different? I'm a bit flummoxed. How can you argue that shaming a spouse is EVER a good thing? "If handled correctly"??? What??
25mlc, I'm TRYING to present "something different" here. It is BECAUSE the conventional wisdom around here is "never snoop!" "never expose!" that I bring up the opposing view, for the poster to consider. And I think if anyone would look back at Eternal Optimist's thread, they would see that I'm not the one who seems to have had their chord struck. In fact, I didn't even introduce the topic -- you did. You went on several long, emphasized text rants about things that neither I nor EO even brought up, and it makes me wonder where you're coming from on this? If someone used God, and shame, to get you to come home or something, I'm truly sorry -- that's not right.
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You may be making a very different point, but I'm quoting YOUR WORDS in response to mine in my first post on this topic. In reply to my stating that "shaming a spouse into coming home won't lead to true marital restoration in the long run..." you chose to chime in and say "If handled correctly it can be an effective tool..." so I'm left wondering, "shame -- as a tool"... for what?
NOPE -- you've misquoted me. Go back and read it again. I said, very specifically:
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Exposure, done correctly, should never be about shame or condemnation. It should be a loving but firm gesture, that says "I love myself too much to allow this to continue, and I love YOU too much to let you continue in this without a fight."
Done properly, it is basically a marital intervention, and it can be quite effective. It can, however, then make the "repair" work that much more difficult.
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And I still don't get it. I understand it, PT. I just don't get your long term goal. And I disagree with your approach about it, IF your goal is to restore a marriage. And it DOES matter if that is the goal. I don't know anyone with a healthy restored marriage who was shamed into it. The word SHAME is the word[i] I chose, and you disagreed with my statement.
Implicitly, that means you were referring to shame when you said "it can be an effective tool if used correctly" and yeah, that bugs me a lot.
Hunh?? Clearly you are implying what I didn't infer.
As for the rest of your post, there's really no way to respond to it because you keep on insisting on using the word "shame" to frame the discussion. If you'd like to have an honest debate about the pro's and con's of exposure as an affair-busting tool, I'd welcome that. Because although reasonable people can (and do) disagree about it, I do think it's a discussion worth having.
I think it really depends on the situation. In my own situation, W went to the in-laws complaining of abuse that never occurred in order to justify why she was choosing to end the M. I had to weigh loving exposure on one hand, wanting to end the A - and on the other hand the strategic advantage in the D of removing the unwavering support W was attempting to build among her support system.
In some situations (without children especially) I can see the "Little Bo Peep" approach being preferred... especially if the BS works on themselves properly and is able to detach.
In other situations, I can see the light of exposure being necessary - especially when the A has become ruinous of a family's finances and the lives of children of the M.
In either case - it will ultimately be the behavior of the BS post-A that determines whether the M has a chance. The WS has to agree on certain ground rules, and commit to transparency, etc. - but the BS should also commit to these same rules out of fairness.
So... you have some pros and cons to consider.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I also neglected to add something important: MUCH of my (more aggressive) approach centers around the expediency of the fact that MOST LBSs can't handle prolonged (longer than 6 months) deceit and infidelity. To men, especially, it can be emasculating.
But I have ALWAYS said, that -- if you CAN -- then you should do the "pure DB" approach. SmileysPerson is a great example that comes to mind, as he seems to be handling it well. Everyone has a different "breaking point." For some it's only one month; others can go two or three years. I just don't think that most people can handle it for any length of time, and then when you factor in the destructive (finances, etc.) factors mentioned above, I usually come down on the side of more aggressive, vs. less so.
Something else I've pondered - the type of person that the WS is. I understand most WS's are entitled, selfish, etc. - in my own situation to the extreme - but from what I gather most situations.
But there are some WSs that act that way prior to the A. In this case - is it not possible that a "pure DB" approach might simply encourage the A because they have a lack of respect for you to begin with?
Once you've lost respect with your spouse - I have a hard time wrapping my head around the emasculating principles of pure DBing if they take actions which you can tell are designed to cause you pain.
For some of us - especially me "hiding" lots of Ws private persona during our relationship - a 180 might actually entail exposure. When they are used to walking all over us, and we are used to walking on eggshells... maybe a 180 would be standing up for yourself and ultimately even if you make your spouse angry you will at least gain respect... especially for yourself.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I tend to recommend whichever style would represent a "180" from the prior marital (pre-affair) style. If the LBS was particularly controlling*, domineering, etc., then I would recommend a more empathetic approach. If the LBS was particularly passive, pleasing, "Mr. Nice Guy" before, I recommending taking a stronger stand.
*I asterisk this to emphasize that most wayward spouses accuse a LBS of being "controlling" once their waywardness begins, and it usually is revisionist history and just means "You're not giving me space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." So I try to dig a little to look for the GENUINE, PRE-AFFAIR marital and communication style of the LBS.
I agree with you. I think Puppy also recommends that mostly to those that have been acting too much like a doormat and getting walked over, so it's a good 180 for us. I don't think acting like a doormat or weak is ever attractive to a spouse. Karen
W dropped the 'bomb' on 01/03/2009. I had suspected possible A prior, but was still in denial. I attempted to start MC, but she said "I'm tired of waiting I want a divorce right now!" on 01/15/2009 after meeting with our preacher.
I told her "Okay, lets work out an agreement and file mutually so we can move on and work together for our daughter."
This wasn't good enough for W, she files on a fault ground of "Physical and Mental Cruelty" wanting sole custody and child support with me having zero visitation and I just sort of *sigh* because her behavior and stability throughout January was disjointed to say the least...
I was served papers on 02/02/2009, hired an attorney on 02/04/2009, hired a private investigator on 02/05/2009, busted her A on 02/06/2009, and then counter-filed on a fault ground of adultery on 02/09/2009.
Her attorney started making threats, claiming to have all sorts of abuse evidence. Of course I knew it was b.s., but my lawyers didn't so they wanted me to settle. I took charge, told them what I wanted to do, and here I am 3 months later holding all the cards after uncovering her mental history.
So I've attempted the DBing in the midst of a very hostile divorce action. W has been so paranoid, etc. yet visits OM next door on a regular basis as if she can't comprehend she is hurting her legal case. I did the exposure as much for myself as for the M, because passively recording/documenting was becoming emasculating.
I pretty much went by the book... I had a few slip ups but we all do. Generally I've done everything as well as I could... but with false accusations, crazy-making, etc. I pretty much came to the conclusion that this relationship was no longer healthy for me or my children.
So why go into my own situation? BPD is at its core a mental illness based on intense shame on the part of the borderline. Although she hasn't been officially diagnosed - at the heart of the matter is the knowledge that whether I exposed or whether I just upheld the M - W was going to feel intense shame whenever dealing with me.
Although my case is extreme - I've also learned that the healthiest thing for me was to work on myself, focus on healthy things in my own life, and focusing on my children. Learning to quit worrying about what W does and does not do is very liberating.
An A will eventually run its course... but as intensely as some people want to save their M, they won't be able to hold out against the extreme selfishness and entitled behavior of the wayward if they stay too involved. Whether you expose or whether you do the passive approach - your primary focus should be on yourself after the decision is made.
I've learned this, because I know how it feels to lose respect, trust, and love for someone I cared about deeply. Now I have to treat her as a snake, deal with her from a distance, and focus on protecting my children from her behavior.
In the end I recognize that the price I would have to pay to continue my M is too high. That being said - I should not show any disrespect nor take out any anger or attempt to appear righteous to my W, because I'm not. Exposure if done should be done as lovingly as possible... but if you continue your M after using the tactic the repair work is going to be something that requires a great deal of thought/effort on your part to avoid holding it over your wayward's head.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Although yours is a unique sitch (almost certain BPD), you bring up a broader point that I want to make:
I would never do ANYTHING based just on "how will my wayward spouse perceive this?" or "Will it make her angry?" And that's because, even short of a mental illness, a person in an active affair does NOT have the marriage's -- nor even the family's -- best interests at heart at that moment. That doesn't mean they're bad people, but in their current, fogged-out wayward state, I am going to do my decision-making based on my own sense of "WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IN THIS SITUATION?" and I can't base it on how it's going to be perceived by them. I may have to then DEAL with the fallout of the perception(s), but I'm not going to base my DECISION-MAKING on it.
Well I hear you on that. I think taking any actions with the underlying belief that you can "control" your wayward's thoughts, perceptions, or actions is undermining yourself and the real reasons for the changes you make.
You do GAL/LRT for yourself. When you focus on those things you just do them... the 'as if' stuff gets you started, but ultimately once you really get to a point where you are really GAL/LRT your wayward won't think it is fake anymore.
Long-term you need to do those things anyway... and really the only way to make good decisions during an active affair is through healthy detachment emotionally.
Not all situations are alike, although we do find enough common threads to assume that we can follow all the DB advice to the letter. In my situation that would have been disastrous so I think it is important everyone understand there are pros/cons to any specific approach.
Exposure has its pros/cons primarily related to how it is executed. Little Bo Peep has its pros/cons primarily related to how it is executed.
In either case, even a perfect execution may not have the desired result if it isn't the right decision. Sometimes neither decision will make a difference because your wayward is too far gone.
I think it is intellectually deceitful to act as if exposure = shame, judgment, fire & brimstone, and other emotionally loaded arguments and that it won't always work. I also think MWD's approach isn't perfect either and won't always work.
Regardless of what approach you use: 1. You need to have respect for yourself 2. You need to have respect for your wayward
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Clearly you are implying what I didn't infer. 
Karen