We will have to agree to disagree. True, exposing an affair to FAMILY AND FRIENDS (who's???) MAY hasten the demise of the A...sure that may be true. Or it could force them to see it as "them against us", but let's say it does end the A sooner... So what? How does it serve the restoration of the marriage? That IS important to me and to most people here.
If that is NOT the goal, what is? Is it about being "right" and OR making the shamed spouse "wrong", or hurting their standing in the community or family, instead of forgiving and being happily married? B/C being happily married IS the goal of most people here. Does the exposure force a spouse to go home? Maybe. But in some cases, so would a scarlet letter....
My main point is If the m ends in divorce but MIGHT have gone differently if the LBSer had stepped back and not "shamed the wayward spouse" that matters and...that's my point. And I stand by it. Sometimes [i]exposing it hurts the chances of a long term reconciliation. But as far as SHAME is concerned, I can think OF NO time that is good for anyone, especially the kids, and the idea of restoring a healthy happy M...with shame...nope, I don't think so. [/i] No offense, but there's a stubborn need to be right here, or something going on here that is off point. I don't get it. I know it's close to home for you and I'm sorry if it hit a chord. I really am. But isn't it possible that you could be overstating something here? Or not be right about this? Would it be so terrible to not be correct and to have to try something different? I'm a bit flummoxed. How can you argue that shaming a spouse is EVER a good thing? "If handled correctly"??? What??
You may be making a very different point, but I'm quoting YOUR WORDS in response to mine in my first post on this topic. In reply to my stating that "shaming a spouse into coming home won't lead to true marital restoration in the long run..." you chose to chime in and say "If handled correctly it can be an effective tool..." so I'm left wondering, "shame -- as a tool"... for what?
(EO, sorry, but I think this is only a partial hijack ?? and it does discuss a point that Puppy makes often that should be discussed out loud. But sorry if this isn't helpful to you, although it may well be.)
And I still don't get it. I understand it, PT.I just don't get your long term goal. And I disagree with your approach about it, IF your goal is to restore a marriage. And it DOES matter if that is the goal. I don't know anyone with a healthy restored marriage who was shamed into it. The word SHAME is the word[i] I chose, and you disagreed with my statement. [/i]
Implicitly, that means you were referring to shame when you said "it can be an effective tool if used correctly" and yeah, that bugs me a lot.
Tell me how shame helps restore a lasting, happy, marriage. Tell me about all the books and experts who recommend it, or just tell us your own opinion. B/C it sure is NOT DBing, Nor is it MWD's position and I've checked on that a lot here, in the DB books and with my db coach. I don't know why you cling to this so much. There's no flexibility in your stance and it sounds really extreme to me. And not loving. But judgmental, condescending, smug, although I'm not saying you are those traits, that statement is how it came across to me, and is NOT in line with DB coaching.So why do you push it here?
I've seen some marriages survive infidelity, and they didn't tell the world about it, let alone their children, and no one used "shame" as a tool. (That's probably why DB pushes the whole series on forgiveness and not snooping and letting go and "keeping the road home paved and smooth" ---that ALL comes from DBing and MWD. I didn't make it up.)
If you think shame is an "effective tool"....then yeah, we do disagree. Peace. j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I'm just curious if perhaps, the shame or exposure can sort of get someone out of the fog and to the table and where you go from there makes the difference.
I'm not advocating, just interpreting. And I think this is a worthwhile topic.
I think that shame can rouse someone to some sort of objectivity. Once the person is seeing themselves and their behavior as destructive, hurtful and perhaps embarrassing, they are back in something closer to reality. The LBS pushing the shame, using it as a tool in the R is the kiss of death. I see both sides here and I bet like most things in life, depends on the sitch.
I'm just curious if perhaps, the shame or exposure can sort of get someone out of the fog and to the table and where you go from there makes the difference.
I'm not advocating, just interpreting. And I think this is a worthwhile topic.
I think that shame can rouse someone to some sort of objectivity. Once the person is seeing themselves and their behavior as destructive, hurtful and perhaps embarrassing, they are back in something closer to reality. The LBS pushing the shame, using it as a tool in the R is the kiss of death. I see both sides here and I bet like most things in life, depends on the sitch.
Now see there, aliveandkicking? You responded with clarity and objectivity! Apply that marvelous clarity and objectivity that you have, to your own situation! You can use this skill with others in their situations because you don't have the emotional investment in their situations like you do in yours! That's where detatchment in your own situation comes into play! By being 'detatched' in your own situation (which you CAN do) , you are then able to think more clearly and objectively about your own situation!
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
I'm just curious if perhaps, the shame or exposure can sort of get someone out of the fog and to the table and where you go from there makes the difference.
I'm not advocating, just interpreting. And I think this is a worthwhile topic.
I think that shame can rouse someone to some sort of objectivity. Once the person is seeing themselves and their behavior as destructive, hurtful and perhaps embarrassing, they are back in something closer to reality. The LBS pushing the shame, using it as a tool in the R is the kiss of death. I see both sides here and I bet like most things in life, depends on the sitch.
Now see there, aliveandkicking? You responded with clarity and objectivity! Apply that marvelous clarity and objectivity that you have, to your own situation! You can use this skill with others in their situations because you don't have the emotional investment in their situations like you do in yours! That's where detatchment in your own situation comes into play! By being 'detatched' in your own situation (which you CAN do) , you are then able to think more clearly and objectively about your own situation!
LOL...somehow I melt into emotional lava when it comes to my life...
I'm just curious if perhaps, the shame or exposure can sort of get someone out of the fog and to the table and where you go from there makes the difference.
I'm not advocating, just interpreting. And I think this is a worthwhile topic.
I think that shame can rouse someone to some sort of objectivity. Once the person is seeing themselves and their behavior as destructive, hurtful and perhaps embarrassing, they are back in something closer to reality. The LBS pushing the shame, using it as a tool in the R is the kiss of death. I see both sides here and I bet like most things in life, depends on the sitch.
Now see there, aliveandkicking? You responded with clarity and objectivity! Apply that marvelous clarity and objectivity that you have, to your own situation! You can use this skill with others in their situations because you don't have the emotional investment in their situations like you do in yours! That's where detatchment in your own situation comes into play! By being 'detatched' in your own situation (which you CAN do) , you are then able to think more clearly and objectively about your own situation!
LOL...somehow I melt into emotional lava when it comes to my life...
But, you have the ability, clearly, to solidify into igneous rock when it comes to your life too!
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
I'm just curious if perhaps, the shame or exposure can sort of get someone out of the fog and to the table and where you go from there makes the difference.
I'm not advocating, just interpreting. And I think this is a worthwhile topic.
I think that shame can rouse someone to some sort of objectivity. Once the person is seeing themselves and their behavior as destructive, hurtful and perhaps embarrassing, they are back in something closer to reality. The LBS pushing the shame, using it as a tool in the R is the kiss of death. I see both sides here and I bet like most things in life, depends on the sitch.
Now see there, aliveandkicking? You responded with clarity and objectivity! Apply that marvelous clarity and objectivity that you have, to your own situation! You can use this skill with others in their situations because you don't have the emotional investment in their situations like you do in yours! That's where detatchment in your own situation comes into play! By being 'detatched' in your own situation (which you CAN do) , you are then able to think more clearly and objectively about your own situation!
LOL...somehow I melt into emotional lava when it comes to my life...
But, you have the ability, clearly, to solidify into igneous rock when it comes to your life too!
Actually, I was the "rock" in my M. Friends have literally used that word...maybe I'm just tired and want to be a little softer...YKWIM?
No offense, but there's a stubborn need to be right here, or something going on here that is off point. I don't get it. I know it's close to home for you and I'm sorry if it hit a chord. I really am. But isn't it possible that you could be overstating something here? Or not be right about this? Would it be so terrible to not be correct and to have to try something different? I'm a bit flummoxed. How can you argue that shaming a spouse is EVER a good thing? "If handled correctly"??? What??
You may be making a very different point, but I'm quoting YOUR WORDS in response to mine in my first post on this topic. In reply to my stating that "shaming a spouse into coming home won't lead to true marital restoration in the long run..." you chose to chime in and say "If handled correctly it can be an effective tool..." so I'm left wondering, "shame -- as a tool"... for what?
25,
I will start a new thread about this, so as not to further hijack EO's thread, but for now, I will say this:
You're misquoting me. Go back and read what I posted:
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Exposure, done correctly, should never be about shame or condemnation. It should be a loving but firm gesture, that says "I love myself too much to allow this to continue, and I love YOU too much to let you continue in this without a fight."
Done properly, it is basically a marital intervention, and it can be quite effective. It can, however, then make the "repair" work that much more difficult.
I was SPECIFICALLY trying to make the point that shame should NOT be used ("never", in fact), and tried to briefly point out that one shouldn't lump "shame" and "condemnation" with the tactic of "exposure," which has a legitimate place in the affair-busting toolkit.
I don't see where I'm the one being stubborn or showing a "need to be right," as I'm not the one posting 500-word, bold and colored font rants about it. It would seem to be your nerve which was struck, not mine.
Again, go by and read the thread. I'm not even the one who interjected it into the discussion.
But are you using the word "shame" but meaning conscience? And are you doing something publicly versus privately? And are you coming from a place of love? Your inward journey is clarifying things for you AK, so keep it up. You are getting there girl!
(( j ))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I absolutely agree with what you wrote, and I took it as it was meant. I also don't like this bold print and colored wording to emphasize a point. I guess it turns me off because I see it as bullying.
The way I do see it is if someone is going the route of having an affair, and all of the other acting out that goes with it, keeping silent and taking their crap changes nothing. They have already made up their minds. Why should we allow someone to keep disprespecting us and the life that we once had? Because I gotta tell you, they do lose respect for someone who has so little respect for themselves!
