Newcomer requesting advice

[traveldane]

thanks Sandi. you encouragement is so appreciated.

i am wondering if you can speculate some more insight-

trying to understanding if I am dealing with depressed husband, walk away syndrome, or possibly MLC with depression thrown in. hoping to figure our most likely what I am dealing with, then know how best to respond.

Of course I think my H is depressed, but wonder if that is just related to him being in crisises over deciding to leave our marriage. Wonder if it could be slight MLC because the things he wants to do right now include hanging out with younger colleagues (including OW) and his statements about wanting no obligations, etc.

He never said ILYBNILWY. He said he felt like his feelings for me are gone beacuse of the bad arguing that occured last fall (when he was withdrawing from me) and that he could never feel good about himself for the mistakes that he made in dealing with things. He has said that he doesn't love me, that our relationship is beyond the point of repair, for him.

I just returned to D.C. to retrieve my things from the storage unit. I somehow have a feeling that while he said by phone last week "maybe we could get to gether while you are here to talk a little bit", I doubt he will call or initiate contact with me. I think I am out of sight, out of mind for him at this point. I feel that I can't believe anything he says he will do big or small. He told me last time we talked that he would email me this week regarding some financial issues, stated the he realized that his avoidant behavior created problems in the long term and that he was trying to change that. But here we are at the end of the week and he hasn't followed through with emailing (shocker). So I don't know why I think he will initate a get to gether.

I am trying very hard to stay dark, visit my friends while I am here in town, then get the hell out. I knew it wold be hard to come back to our home city, but wasn't anticipating it feeling so awful. I just wish I could know what is real with him...is he going through a crisis, midlife or otherwise, is he working on himself, as he says he is, or is is detached, moving on, blowing smoke up my behind, and just lazy about the divorce. The worst part about this whole thing is that he used to be such a person of integrity, and now I can believe a thing he says. His word means little more than nothing anymore.

Ah well. Got lots to do here, just need to focus on taking care of business and moving forward with my own stuff.

[traveldane]

Hey Montana,

Hope today was better than yesterday for you. I hear you about faking GAL and PMA.

For me, sometimes is it genuine, which is better than when I first starting trying to, but there are still a lot of times, most often I would say, when I have to fake it.

When does your H get back from LA? Are you still dark? I need to stay dark this weekend while back in home city but just arrived and already am wanting to crumble and call. H. had mentioned to me last week on the phone that "maybe we could get together when you return next weekend" and I am determined not to contact him. If he doesn't contact me, than clearly he doesn't really want to see me. Its so hard though.

Anyway, will check back with you later. Thanks for hangin in there with me. I agree...we chicks really do need to stick together through this painful mess!

[traveldane]

So I copied this over to my thread, origionally asked others discussing this topic, and would love any and all thoughts in on this matter.

what is the right ballance between empathy, giving people (mostly I mean the WAS) the time to work out their issues on their own time, validating their feelings and being their friend-the person they ideally will realize they don't want to give up-(also because it makes us feel better to conduct ourselves with grace and kindness) AND responding to disrespectful inconsiderate treatment that not only hurts but indicates that we will except this?

How are we supossed to gauge if "doing something different" is to continue to rise above, be the better person, so they have less ammunition to justify thier anger at us, or if the doing something different required is to calmly but directly address the disrespectful behavior? And, in switching up the doing something different, doesn't that then become waffeling back and forth so you never really get the full impact of either strategey?

I get so frustrated by the position we LBSs are placed in by manipulative or passive agressive WAS. I know that no person can make you feel a certain way, we control what we do for ourself and how we choose to respond, but if we are at the point where we want to drop the rope and have nothing to to do with them in response but still have ongoing issues (child swapping, joint financial responsibilities that can not be seperated immediately...) how are you supossed to respond when they are not acting respectfully. I feel like a little kid whinning...HEY, NO FAIR!

[sandi2]

trying to understanding if I am dealing with depressed husband, walk away syndrome, or possibly MLC with depression thrown in. hoping to figure our most likely what I am dealing with, then know how best to respond.

I think he is certainly depressed but he's running from the reality of things. He can't coop with it and is trying to drown himself in a different life from what he had with you. Of course he is a WAS b/c that is exactly what he did. I don't know about the MLC. He seems very young for that, however, I seemed too old and I think it happen to me......so we can't always go by age. I still feel that it is him being deppressed and not cooping with "what it is" and trying to hide from it instead of dealing with it. He thinks that he can try to have an A with this OW and work until he drops and he won't think about the life he had with you and the plans that the two of you made, etc. It won't work, but who knows how long he may continue to go that direction?

As far as how you respond to him and the stitch.......I think you would stay calm, poised, act in a somewhat friendly manner so that you do not appear to be angry or vindictive about anything. I would not go so far as to tell you to act upbeat like we usually tell people b/c in your case I think it may comes across and unappropriate and fake.......due to the circumstances of the stitch. I would be nice and try to treat him as if he were a friend from your past. That is not a good way to express what I'm trying to say, but it's about the best I can do today..... You don't want to have "drama" when you are around him. That is why it is important to keep your cool and stay in control even if your emotions are bouncing off the walls. Try not to believe everything he says b/c he is most likely to say things that will hurt you. What he is doing is trying to not only convince "you", but to convince himself of what he is saying. That is true of WAS and MLC. The two are very similar and I would not worry so much about which one it is b/c you would still want to conduct yourself in the same way. You don't act cold toward him, but you certainly don't throw yourself at him either. Do as you always do, which is to act like a lady. If he shows you that he wants to talk about the R and he seems to be in the right frame of mind to proceed.....then I would encourage him to say what he wants to say and if you can validate what he says or agree or justify or whatever......then you can do that. But, if you don't think he is rational and is on a tear, then I would tell you not to get into an argument and walk away before more hurt feelings come about. Unless he has changed his mind about the stitch, then he is likely to say something you don't want to hear, but you won't know until you go.....if he invites you.

If he tries to contact you, I think you respond in the same manner if it is over the phone. If he gets rude or whatever, then tell him you are not prepared to continue while he is talking in that manner. I think emails are easier.....lol.

what is the right ballance between empathy, giving people (mostly I mean the WAS) the time to work out their issues on their own time, validating their feelings and being their friend-the person they ideally will realize they don't want to give up-(also because it makes us feel better to conduct ourselves with grace and kindness) AND responding to disrespectful inconsiderate treatment that not only hurts but indicates that we will except this?

I don't know that he needs to see you showing a lot of empathy for him. I am thinking you are wondering if you should do this if he is depressed. Men are so different from us and remember that "male ego" of theirs! He could probably stand anybody showing empathy but his wife. As i said before, just try to treat him like a "casual friend" (which I know sounds impossible, but that is a type of guideline) and try to be nice but not gushy. Don't "over-kill" with too much laugher and getting all giddy. I can't see you doing that but sometimes our emotions get kind of crazy.

I tell you what I will do. Instead of trying to answer your questions, I am going to send you my list of Do's and Don'ts. It was design for mostly a couple who is still living under the same roof, but it can work for a S couple as well. The list looks long, but actually it is a short guide to what DR teaches.


Well, I could not get my computer to copy and past.....so maybe next time.

Anyway, you need to give him space and do not that will be seen by him as "pressure" b/c he will not react well to that. You win his convidence by showing him you are not angry toward him and when he sees you are "peaceful" then he may want some of that also. He may begin to feel that he can confide in you as a friend. After a few times of talking together or seeing each other for a few minutes, then you can begin to lighten up and show a more fun side. I know you are feeling like throwing a party or anything, but I just mean to try to have that personality of being "light hearted" so he will know that you aren't going to start talking about old times or get emotional on him. Those are important things. If you have a chance to compliment him on something, then make it sound sincere. Hopefully it will build some self esteem. A person who is depressed has very, very low self esteem. If he acts cocky.....it's a cover-up. I think he is truly depressed and just covering up.

How are we supossed to gauge if "doing something different" is to continue to rise above, be the better person, so they have less ammunition to justify thier anger at us, or if the doing something different required is to calmly but directly address the disrespectful behavior? And, in switching up the doing something different, doesn't that then become waffeling back and forth so you never really get the full impact of either strategey?

I'm getting the feeling you are planning to stay dark! First of all, by being the better person......are you speaking of the OW or him or yourself? Who are you trying to be better than? If it is any of these.....including yourself.....you work to improve yourself and be the best you can be. Don't compete against the OW........just be your best.

I'm not sure I am fully understanding what you are saying in that quote. Are you talking about doing 180's? Maybe I need to wait for you to clearify that for me.

we control what we do for ourself and how we choose to respond, but if we are at the point where we want to drop the rope and have nothing to to do with them in response but still have ongoing issues (child swapping, joint financial responsibilities that can not be seperated immediately...) how are you supossed to respond when they are not acting respectfully. I feel like a little kid whinning...HEY, NO FAIR!

Are you talking about your stitch or just LBS in general?

Guess I need to go to bed and maybe I will see things more clearly in the morning.

Take care,
Sandi

[traveldane]

Hi Sandi,

You are right, I am primarily trying to stay dark, I think thats my best course at this point. But I guess what I am unsure about regarding the 180 is that 1 week ago my H. and I talked by phone regarding a financial issue. Now you know our history of me taking care of those things and how he avoided, would say he was going to be more proactive and never did. I know that this, ironically, contributed to him feeling less than in the dynamic of our relationship.

When we talked last week by phone I gently but firmly told him that when he avoids communication with me about this financial issue, I have no way of knowing his intentions...it seems like he is skipping out on them. He seemed to respond to my calm manner and "I" statements and told me that he was sorry, he understood, and said that he was just embarrassed that he was still having trouble with this "behavior change" to be proactive instead of reactive when something needs to be addressed related to finances. I validating his feelings and did not push the issue on, just asked him to email me this week and let me know the status of things. He told me what he was going to do about it and I said, fine, no problem, just please email me regardless to let me know where it stands. He agreed. And now, I haven't heard a word from him. Its more of the same. I believe he genuniely means what he says when he says it, but the more I see he not be able to follow through with even small promises, the more I feel like my patience is going to run out. I don't want it to, but I can't keep feeling let down like this....I'm asking him for nothing right now, other than common curteosy.

So I'm wondering if I need to change my response to be a bit more assertive and address this with him...I don't want it to turn into me pointing out his shortcoming in this area but I also feel very disrespected that he can't even follow through with sending a small email.

I appreciate your advice to treat him like a casual friend. That is a good guideline for my interaction.

Thanks again so much. I hope you are feeling well.

[traveldane]

oh, and regarding the "being the better person" statement, I was referring to me being better than past times when would have felt it was necessary to point out when H was not meeting responsibilities.

just having trouble knowing it if, given the state of things, its better to minimize hurting H.'s pride and feelilngs and all costs or if I am enabling him to continue his pattern of behavior where he agrees to address something and then lets it go, or waits until it is convenient for his time frame.

[sandi2]

Hi Sweetie,

Yes it is very difficult in knowing how to deal with men when trying to think like them.....(b/c we can't)......and to protect their ego and yet continue to keep our self respect. When you are separated and have joint financial responsibilities, that is tough. If he depended on you to always be the one to step up to take care of everything, then I think he may continue to do that unless absolutely pushed into that place. I do not think you should "have" to do it nor do I think it is a good idea. He will resent you and think of you in a parental light.....and you sure don't want that. Men hate for women to talk to them as if they (the woman) is their mother. It is hard!

My H is one of those men who put off doing everything to the last minute. He hates paying bills and seldom pays them on time. It could drive me crazy! In fact, it use to when we were younger, but then I finally had to tell him that I could not deal with that type of business and we would split up the bills. I told him what I would be responsible for and he had the rest. If he chose to be late and pay extra charges, that was his problem and not mine. I know a lot of people would find fault with that "arragement" but he was not going to change and he did not want me taking care of our finances.....which I found extremely offensive b/c I was taught how to do that and he wasn't. I suppose it was a "man" thing with him! Anyway, it was what "I" had to do in order to remain sane. We still do it to this day and in fact we have separate checking accounts to opperate from. He never would post a check that he wrote or anything and I never knew what he had written, so I could not work like that. People have to do whatever it takes to work things out together. At first, he did not see the point of having two checking accounts, but we have done this for so many years now, I doubt either of us would know how to function any other way.....lol.

So, my advice in dealing with your H about the finances is that first of all.....you protect yourself. By that I mean do not get yourself in a pickle trying to protect his ego or to keep from sounding like a parent to him. That is the first and most important, IMHO. If you can find a middle ground or an agreement on what will be done and "who" will do it, then of course, that is what you would want to do. If he says he will do it and then doesn't......that is the big problem, right? So, does he have to be the one to take care of it or does it require his signature? I guess I'm asking if you have to "wait" for him in order to take care of the finaces? If not, then if it were me, I would not put myself through that unneeded stress and just go on and pay the thing and be done with it. If he "is" needed, then all you can do is to email him (which I personally think is best) and respectfully remind him that it is due and you are "depending" upon him to take care of it. You have to be very careful in the wording of these things. That is why I perfer emails b/c you have time to "think" about what and how something is expressed. In other words if you said, "I am depending on you keeping your word and taking care of this matter", he would immediately get angry at you implying he did not stick to his word. You may not have thought too much about how it sounded at the time, but that goes back to everyone being extra sensitive during these situations. Talking to him as though "he was a man" is the most important thing in the world to him. Showing him respect and not talking "down" to him as if he were stupid is major. I have learned that through-out my long years of M. I was not one to use ugly words, but I just spoke carelessly and did not realize the beating my H's ego and self-respect was taking. Even when they know they are very guilty and we have every right to be concerned......they are worse than children when talking to them.......(LOL) Dont' tell any of the guys here I've said that, okay?

Seriously, it is all about the differences in the sexes and how each one thinks and feels. It is hard to understand how the other one thinks and how they see things the way they do. He knows he did you wrong and we've discussed all of that. I think you are much more organized, responsible, and mature than he is. Truth be known......I bet he thinks that more than anybody else! But, he looks at himself as being "it is what it is" at this time.

I know people get sick of hearing us tell them that it takes time and patient and using little steps before much change is seen.......but that is just the way it is. Sometimes, I wish I could say something different and tell a person it won't be like that......and I'll have to admit there have been a few cases when it didn't take as much time as the norm, but it has been very few.

I stick to the advice I have already given you about staying away and out of contact with him as much as you can......for the time being. Hopefully, that can change at some point. But for now.....I truly believe it is what you need to do for your sake as well as his.

I've told you before, but I pray that you will be able to heal emotionally and I do hope that the two of you can make a go of it. I know you don't stop loving a person just b/c of troubles......but if he doesn't come to his senses in a reasonable time or if he should get married to OW (God forbid, then I hope you can put this behind you and move on without him.

Talk to you later.

Sandi

[traveldane]

Hi Sandi,

Gosh I really need some support right now. I'm sorry because I know I've been asking a lot but I so appreciate how you've understood my situation.

So I guess you could say I back slid big time today. I read your post above and it made so much sense and I thought I was set in my course of action....

But then instead of emailing him about the financial issue, I called him. Big mistake. He was so hurtful, in so many ways. He told me he hadn't followed through with communicating about the finances because it was the further thing from his mind and that he hated talking to me about this, that he hated talking to me in general. He told me that he hates talking to me because he is happy with his decision to seperate and move on, that he feels guilty for choosing his own happiness but that that was the truth.

Regarding the legal separation and then divorce, he told me he "welcomed" me to do it, other wise he was happy to just wait the required year and then file. He said, again, that he would do what he needs to do to get the remaining debt setteled "so that we won't have to talk any more". His voice is just so full of anger. He stated that it was not hypocritical for him to pursue another relationship without filing for divorce because in his eyes, we are divorced, we just have to go through the formaily.

I am so tired out being hurt, disrespected and treated as less than by him. I don't know this person he has become. I don't see how, even if he doesn't love me, even if he wants to move on, he can treat the person he spent 10 years of his life with and last year at this time was about to have a child with. I know this is like, going back to the beginning of learning DB and DR, but I did it. I made all the mistakes. I defended my self, I talked about how poorly he was treating me, I referenced the R he had stared. I asked him why he was so angry at me, why he needed to treatment like this.

I so wanted to hang in there, to just separate from him, live my life, move forward but not on and let time take care of it. But I don't know if I have it in me. And I don't know if I should. I don't want to be in this same place a year from now; clearly he is charging forward and has only contempt for me. I think my patience and kindness toward him has come across as weakness. When I asked him what he wanted to talk about last week when he had mentioned getting together while I was in town, he said "I don't know what you are talking about, I didn't say that"! I was stunned, how do you tell someone the sky is blue when they say it is red? So of course I didn't keep

Sandi, I so wanted to stand, to hang in from a detached place. Maybe I still do. But with the way I back slid today and the way that his heart is so hardened against me...I feel like such a doormat. I don't want to believe it but maybe he is not worth it. I don't know what to think, believe, to feel. I am just so tired of being hurt. I think we may have missed our window of opportunity to turn this around. We have no contact, other than this stupid car loan that we owe more on than the vehicle is worth, that both of us hate talking about, but that is in my name so I am at the end of the day respnsible for. He has never really initiated any meaningfull contact since we separated, he tells me he never has missed me or questioned his decision to end our marriage. He just is so angry at me, and I do believe a lot of it is projection, and I know that some say that if your spouse shows anger toward you that that is a good sign because that means there are still stong feelings there, that indifference is worse....but maybe he is indifferent, only angry regarding our one remaining tie to each other.

Is there anything I am missing or do I need to just accept that there is nothing here to work with? I am so angry at myself to making all the bad mistakes of a LBS in my situation, I failed miserably in DBing or even behaving gracefully this evening. But then I also have to look at how he is treating me, has treated me for a long time. I feel like I do need to initiate the legal separation, preamble to D. I hate it, hate him that he has manipulated me to the poin that I feel I need to do this, to protect myself. Its exactally what he wants, for me to do the work for him!

Just so full of dispair right now. Wow, I thought I had a better handle on myself.

[aliveandkicking]

I really relate to your sitch.

For now, I think you need to take whichever steps will provide you the most security financially and emotionally.

In my sitch, if we did not have children, I believe I would be much more inclined to take a firmer position.

For your sanity, can you make peace with D being most likely an inevitability? Get there and stay there for a while before taking action. Try to detach and look at him in stark light (even in your mind)...

The only peace I have had was when I faced that fear head on, really sat in the space of being divorced...and then, I could sleep and breathe and open my eyes fully to everything else in my life.

You know I am still struggling. I have kids crying wanting to know why their dad doesn't want to live here. I see him almost every day and it is just a constant energy sucker. For you, you have the physical space to better control your emotional state.

You do not have to give up, you just have to go to the belly of the beast (D) and if you can be ok there, life is much more manageable. Does that make sense?

[sophia]

Hi traveldane,

My H gets back on Tuesday, then he has stepson for a week. I will continue going dark for the time being, I guess. I would like to spend some time with my SS, but maybe completely detaching is best for now.

Your question about finding the right balance between showing empathy/giving space and responding to disrespect was intriguing.
As a fairly new LBS, I often find myself entrenched in a lot of self-blame. I'm hard on myself, I can be my own worst critic. Perhaps this is common with the LBS, we feel hopeless and sad. We want our WAS to be with us, but they have all the control and they know it. Then it becomes a delicate test of our strength. We are trying to change and become better people, but we have to do that for ourselves. And that's the most challenging goal for me, to learn to love myself better. I want my H back, but I will not compromise or sacrifice my dignity and self-worth for him.

So what is the right balance? You, a human-being worthy of dignity and love, knows what it feels like when someone is hurting you with disrespect Calmly and gently tell him, with an "I" statement how you want and need to be treated. I've learned from reading DR that solutions are more effective than focusing on the problem. Of course, this is a lot easier said than done.

A couple of weeks ago when H stopped by to get some stuff, he said "I thought you were going to be gone this weekend, you told me you wouldn't be here." I calmly just looked at him and said "this is my home, and I always want to be treated with respect, especially in my own home." I caught him off guard, he immediately apologized.

It's hard because we don't want to get in uncomfortable conversations with our WAS. But I think "taking the high ground" ultimately means never allowing your self-worth to become compromised. And I think you've done an incredible job with the way you've conducted yourself with your H.

Hope my thoughts helped a little!

Me 40
WAH 43
T 4 years
M 10 months
stepson 9
H left 1 month ago
No D filed