Dealing With Ambivalence

[Bagheera]

I wasn't typing very coherently late lsat night, apparently;

Second -- my opinion is that you should set a deadline for seeing some kind of significant progress in your relationship --> some moves on her part to start meeting *your* needs / desires for a change, and not just her continued focus on her needs and her anger about the past.

Before delivering any such "ultimatums" I would check with your therapist (privately) after she's had a couple of private sessions on her own. See if he can give you some clues as to what is going on, and what the prognosis looks like. In other words, if there are some underlying long-term issues beneith her intransigence, then you may need to adjust your strategy accordingly.

All I can advise you to do here is: do what feels NATURAL and AFFECTION to **you**, regardless of her response. If you are feeling honest affection and want to show it, then do it, for your own selfish (non-sexual) pleasure, in addition to whatever she gets out of it.

That sentence got butchered. In other words, I know that you are trying to meet her need to feel connected with you via non-sexual touch (a biggy in the self-help books), but again, modify this to fit your particular situation. She may not needs as much as other women, or she may be so angry still that she can't bring herself to respond in kind to your shows of affection. My poorly worded point was: it's OK to push yourself to show her genuine affection, but don't push your envelope so hard that you start to begrudge it too. If you're doing it grudgingly, and she's stonewalling you over it, then neither of you benefit from it.

-- B.

[Kettricken]

Agree with what B. says about 'expressions of affection'. If you really LOOK at that well-worn phrase ... it's all about, well, what it says. A physical gesture to demonstrate YOUR affection towards HER. Believe me, I've so been there with the "But I'm hugging you .... why won't you hug me back?" In the end -- while it's normal and natural and human to want to have your affection returned -- that there is a covert contract.

I got a lot farther -- mostly inside my own head, but also in real relationship terms based on what energy I was silently vibing -- when I started showing affection because *I* wanted to -- no strings attached. It's not a bad exercise.

[Vigilant1]

Agree with what B. says about 'expressions of affection'. If you really LOOK at that well-worn phrase ... it's all about, well, what it says. A physical gesture to demonstrate YOUR affection towards HER. Believe me, I've so been there with the "But I'm hugging you .... why won't you hug me back?" In the end -- while it's normal and natural and human to want to have your affection returned -- that there is a covert contract.

Crap. That's absolutely right.

I got a lot farther -- mostly inside my own head, but also in real relationship terms based on what energy I was silently vibing -- when I started showing affection because *I* wanted to -- no strings attached. It's not a bad exercise.

I've got a long way to go. Thanks for this insight, I'm going to see if I can do it this way.

[Bagheera]

I have been married almost 6 years. I am 46 and the W is 44. We have a 4 year old S. We have had a SSM almost since the very beginning of our marriage. Right after the wedding, W went LD, and I reacted to it in much the same way as bagheera did, with disconnection, resentment, simmering anger, and so forth. My anger and resentment caused me to behave badly, leading to a worse and worse situation for us. She responded with continuous criticism and contemptuous nitpicking. All of this led to a very tense and bleak home environment. Probably a lot like trying to live on Mars. We have not had sex in over 5 years and affection has been entirely nonexistent until recently.

Anyway, I WOKE UP in January and decided I would try to move heaven and earth to turn my marriage around. Initially, W was extremely skeptical but she was up for marital therapy, so we have been doing that since then.

Your signature also says: "Bomb: 1/20/09"

Question V: did you wife threaten to walk out at that time? ask for a separation or divorce? Describe what happened last January to "wake you up."

[Bagheera]

Follow up:

I'm asking because if she is the one who has threatened, or is still threatening, to walk, it essentially puts the power over the continued relationship into her hands, and puts you into "puppy dog" trying-to-please or prove-yourself mode. Unfortunately, this is a submissive and decidedly unmasculine (and therefore sexually unattractive) position for you be in. I too, went through a similar "puppy dog" phase in the first few months of marriage recovery, but I eventually figured out that in order to keep the ball rolling, I had to step up and begin to LEAD the relationship --> both in and out of the bedroom. I think you will need to make the same kind of transition.

As you mentioned over in CB's thread, this isn't something that you ask permission to do. You assume the mantle, and just begin to lead: calmly, firmly, decisively, and confidently. Being calm and non-defensive is especially important in the case of your judgemental, henpecking wife -- don't rise to her baiting -- simply figure out what needs to be done, and do it. If you make a mistake, don't defend: openly acknowledge it, learn from it, and move on. It's a cliche, but practice being the "man of the house" (not dictator or bully, but responsible leader).

-- B.

[Vigilant1]

Follow up:

I'm asking because if she is the one who has threatened, or is still threatening, to walk, it essentially puts the power over the continued relationship into her hands, and puts you into "puppy dog" trying-to-please or prove-yourself mode. Unfortunately, this is a submissive and decidedly unmasculine (and therefore sexually unattractive) position for you be in. I too, went through a similar "puppy dog" phase in the first few months of marriage recovery, but I eventually figured out that in order to keep the ball rolling, I had to step up and begin to LEAD the relationship --> both in and out of the bedroom. I think you will need to make the same kind of transition.

As you mentioned over in CB's thread, this isn't something that you ask permission to do. You assume the mantle, and just begin to lead: calmly, firmly, decisively, and confidently. Being calm and non-defensive is especially important in the case of your judgemental, henpecking wife -- don't rise to her baiting -- simply figure out what needs to be done, and do it. If you make a mistake, don't defend: openly acknowledge it, learn from it, and move on. It's a cliche, but practice being the "man of the house" (not dictator or bully, but responsible leader).

-- B.

B. - If anyone is closer to "walking" right now, it is probably me. But I think that "puppy-dog" mode has been my MO and that this has only made things worse. In January, when I wanted to "fix" everything, I surely did go into "puppy-dog" mode because that's what she said she wanted. Turns out, that's not really what she wanted after all.. of course.

Do you have any other specific suggestions for how I could start leading more, beyond what you said in your post? What kinds of things did you do once you figured this out? Do you think I will need some of the right kind of therapy to really get it right, or is it something I can figure out how to do on my own?

[Vigilant1]

Your signature also says: "Bomb: 1/20/09"

Question V: did you wife threaten to walk out at that time? ask for a separation or divorce? Describe what happened last January to "wake you up."

She got extremely upset and agitated - kind of a nervous breakdown - as the result of an ugly fight we were having on that day in January of this year. I have never seen anything like it, from her or anyone else, and at that moment I vowed to do my best to make our marriage better.

[Bagheera]

Do you have any other specific suggestions for how I could start leading more, beyond what you said in your post? What kinds of things did you do once you figured this out? Do you think I will need some of the right kind of therapy to really get it right, or is it something I can figure out how to do on my own?

Not knowing you or her beyond what you've posted, no.

However, there are resources out there that you can read and work to apply. Get all you can out of Glover's NMMNG book. Ask your support group about this. Bring it up with your therapist. A quick look on Amazon came up with:

Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants: Timeless Wisdom on Being a Man
by Elliott Katz

Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men
by Wayne M. Levine

I haven't read either, although I know that Jayce has recommended this second one, and I'm sure there are other books out there too. If you didn't develop these skills growing up, study them and then little by little begin to incorporate them.

-- B.

[Vigilant1]

However, there are resources out there that you can read and work to apply. Get all you can out of Glover's NMMNG book. Ask your support group about this. Bring it up with your therapist. A quick look on Amazon came up with:

Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants: Timeless Wisdom on Being a Man
by Elliott Katz

Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men
by Wayne M. Levine

I haven't read either, although I know that Jayce has recommended this second one, and I'm sure there are other books out there too. If you didn't develop these skills growing up, study them and then little by little begin to incorporate them.

-- B.

Oddly enough, I am working with both of those, having just read "Being the Strong Man.." this morning. Great minds think alike.. or something

[Bagheera]

Here's a hint for ya, V, right from the description of the "Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants" book.

"To women: He's sensitive, romantic and tries hard to please you, but when there's a problem he seems oblivious. When you ask for input on a decision, he says, "It's up to you."

My personal bane: Restaurant decisions.

"What restaurant do you want to go to tonight, hon?," she asks.

"I don't care. What are you in the mood for?"

BZZZZZZzzzzzz! -10 Alpha-Male points! Try again, Nice Guy....

But, but...I *honestly* don't care! I'm a simple guy! I hate cooking! Food's food! I'm good with a LOT of different cuisine! Whaffle, whaffle, whaffle....

-- B.