Dealing With Ambivalence

[Vigilant1]

If you haven't figured this out yet (and I think that you have), the best thing that you can do is to NOT be defensive, and ACCEPT the wrongs or hurts that she lists as valid, apologize for them, and express your determination to do all that you can to produce a healthy, happy relationship in the future. You can't change the past and neither can she --> you can only move forward together and DO better from now on.

I AM avoiding being defensive. I have been extremely contrite since January, and trying to figure out how to make changes in my life and in my attitudes where possible, not just apologizing. My wife is a "actions speak louder than words" gal, so apologizing doesn't have much of an effect anyway.

In cases like this, you have to make a choice: would you rather be RIGHT or would you rather forge a better relationship? Obviously, she is still stuck on being RIGHT, which leaves you as the one to extend the olive branch. At some point, she will either have to accept that olive branch and learn to forgive, OR she will need to let you go your own way. You'll have to decide how long you are willing to stand there holding it out.

All true. I am really twisting in the wind, and if I decide to stick it out here I will continue to be for some time. She says that she "needs more time" for good feelings about me to return now that our relationship is on the mend. Probably, that is something that I am just going to have to figure out how to cope with. I keep trying to talk her out of it, to start giving something back, especially wrt affection and intimacy. But she won't budge. And I am terribly worried that (because of the Nice Guy stuff) that if I don't continue to push and assert myself and what I need that nothing will ever change. So this is really messing with my head at this point. Should I err on the side of patience, even with all of this Nice Guy stuff in the mix?

You know, I wonder about how late in life the two of you married. Is this a first marrage for both of you? or are there past relationships/marriages that are potentially haunting (psychologically) your own? What were your past relationships (yours and hers) like? What was your courtship period like?

This is the first marriage for both of us. We were married in 2003, when she was 39 and I was 41. I don't know whether past relationships are a problem for me, but my childhood sure is. I am working with the Glover book ("No More Mr. Nice Guy) and it seems to have been written about me. I have a lot of work to do on myself and I'm on it. Some of it seems easier now that I've been going to a men's group and getting REAL about my life for the past many months. But assertiveness, setting boundaries, and that kind of thing are pretty foreign to me. I am worried that I/we have made too much of a mess of this relationship to recover. On the other hand, our problems seem minor compared to some here, there are no Other People (at least not that I'm aware of) and we are both still here despite a horrendous period of about 4-5 years.

I think that I am going to have to "have faith" that she can come around and recover after some more time, but the problem I have is: have faith in what, exactly? I am very concerned about her apparent tendency to withhold affection and sex, and I am having a very difficult time giving her the benefit of the doubt given our past. Then again, aren't I supposed to forgive her and forget about the past, and focus on what she needs from me now? It's all very confusing.

As far as her past relationships, I really don't know anything. Believe it our not. She has played that very close to her chest, and there have been few details divulged. I don't know why, but I should try to see what I can find out.

Our courtship period was nice, with good and sometimes great sex. One interesting thing - we started having sex very early on and we had a very strong bond that arose from that. We dated for about a year before we got married, and we started having sex about a month after we started dating. I believe our bond may have masked important problems that I might have been able to figure out in time if we hadn't started having great sex almost right away.

The impression that you last post is leaving me with -- which could be very much wrong, so please correct me -- is that your wife looked at the "biological clock," noticed that her time was almost up for having children of her own, and she subsequently "settled" --> married someone who perhaps wasn't her ideal mate, but who was "good enough" to try and settle down and have kids with before she was no longer able to. She wanted to start trying to get pregnant the instant you got married, and then made it a prerequisite for sex....sexual blackmail. Didn't you guys talk about your preferences for having kids prior to getting married?

I have often wondered about this myself. How much of a "marriage of convenience" am I in? How could I really understand this? What if it's really true that she wants to come around and fully engage but just needs more time? This is really vexing me right now and I have a hard time keeping my mind from spinning around on it. Before we were married, she made it absolutely clear that she "wanted to have a kid", and I said that I would be okay with A kid, but told her BEFORE WE WERE MARRIED that I was not interested in having more than one. Did she "settle"? I think that she may have, but without realizing it. And in the end, I probably did too. I really had no idea that she would tend to be so judgmental, demanding, endlessly critical, fussy, disorganized, sloppy, and so forth. But I love her anyway

The problem with the above scenario is that when a woman "settles" for a Nice Guy, rather than someone that she has some real sexual chemistry with, you generally get an SSM and a very frustrated Nice Guy. And no ladies, I'm not being sexist here: men often "settle" too, and produce frustrated goodwives in the process.

Well, this really is the main thing to be worried about in my situation, isn't it?? I worry that "giving her more time" is really unlikely to change anything. Then again, our R was so messed up that it's actually possible. But I'm not taking chances. I'm not going to sit back and wait. I am going to try to un-Nice Guy and figure out how to get my needs met, hopefully in this R but I am ready to move on if I decide I need to.

What does Mr. Therapist say about all of this, V? What course of action is he working on?

We go to 2 sessions per week, one single session which has been for me (up till now) and a couples session. He has so fare mostly hard on improving our communication. He has been mostly bending over backward to accommodate my W and addressing her myriad demands, but lately he has started to shift more toward getting intimacy restarted in the R. But W has been extremely resistant to this.

Mr. Therapist has done a little EMDR on me for childhood stuff, but has strangely mostly acted as a cheerleader for my recovery courtship/caretaking effort. Going forward, starting Monday the W is going into the single session to work on her ANGER.

Finally: A Question For the Master
Bagheera, I seem to be stuck in a terrible Catch-22 in the "basic affection" category. By "basic affection" I mean hello/goodbye kisses, hugs, light touching, holding hands, all non-sexual stuff. Mostly, I try to "act as if" and give some affection to her. Mostly she just "takes" and does not give much of anything back. If I hug her, she just stands there usually. If I kiss her, it's just a paternal peck on the lips or cheek. It seems like it works inside a very narrow range: too much/too often is "pressure", and too little/not often enough is "withdrawal" (by me, according to her).

I am having a hell of a time figuring out how to deal with this Catch-22. It makes me feel really weird to have to be affectionate with someone (W) who is so disengaged, but not doing it seems to make things even worse. Have you experienced anything like this, and do you have any ideas on how to deal with it?